Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I was reading some of the posts on hybrids, purity, and using DNA to test for pure lines. I though that I would that DNA testing would not be that successful at determining purity. The problem lies in the limitations of the different types of DNA testing. There are two different types of DNA used in DNA testing, each tells something different.

The first type is the one most people are familiar with, that is nuclear DNA, or DNA found in the nucleus. This DNA is the type that codes for various proteins that eventually determine what you look like. Nuclear DNA is inherited from both of your parents and undergoes recombination. This type of DNA is the type used in crimes and to determine parentage, but not different species. Because it undergoes recombination there is an amount of variation that is too high to be useful in differentiating evolutionary relationships, ie. species

To determine species scientists use mitochondrial DNA, or mtDNA. Mitochondria are those little "power plants" in each of your cells. They are thought to have been singled celled organisms that were incorporated into early eukaryotes. These mitochodria came with there own DNA that doesn't undergo recombination and therefore doesn't show the high intraspecies variation that nuclear DNA does. This is why mtDNA is used to determine evolutionary relationships. However mtDNA has one major drawback, it only shows maternal lineage. This is because all of the mitochondria that you have is inherited from your mom. Because of this you could never be certain of purity.

Here's an example. If you breed a male black ratsnake to a female corn and tested the offspring, they would all test as corns. If you breed a female black ratsnake to a male corn, they would all test as black ratsnakes. If you breed a female corn to a male king, then breed the female F1's to male milks, then the F2's to male blackrats, the F3 offspring would show as PURE corns. So you can see the problem with that.

Well it is more complicated than that. You need to take into consideration what restriction enzymes would be used, where you would get your comparison animals from, etc...

Well, I said DNA would have issues. They were other issues, and they still may happen.

I say we start over. It was so much simpilar in the 70's. And as we learn so much more, we find what we learned was wrong.

Live is far to complicated these days.
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.herpzilla.com

"Here's an example. If you breed a male black ratsnake to a female corn and tested the offspring, they would all test as corns. If you breed a female black ratsnake to a male corn, they would all test as black ratsnakes. If you breed a female corn to a male king, then breed the female F1's to male milks, then the F2's to male blackrats, the F3 offspring would show as PURE corns. So you can see the problem with that."

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Allegedly, the guy that produced what he called ultra hypos (now called ultras) said that he bred the so-called "type" animal to a corn and a gray snow (corn/gray rat cross). There is an implication that perhaps at least one alien species could have been a female if indeed he bred to both corn and gray snow in the same season. Implication would be that his "type" animal was the male and at least one of its mates was a non corn.

Therefore, if the mtDNA test results indicated it was a corn, there could still be hybrid suspicions. If the mtDNA test results showed it was a rat snake, the case would be solved. Except for the $ cost of the testing, we have little to lose by trying. If someone could give me information indicating where and how much it would cost to have such a test done, I'll consider having this test performed on samples of several of my snakes. Namely, p/s bloodreds, ultras and a few others I won't mention so as not to ruffle the "scales" of the originators of those lines.

As many have indicated in this thread, there are many alien looking corns in the hobby. Me? This could be one case where "what we don't know won't hurt us", but I will not knowingly call a snake a corn if I have any substantial proof it is otherwise. Heck, we may discover that many of the so-called 'pure corns' out there are nothing of the kind. DNA testing has been batted around and threatened long enough. It's time someone finally put some of our snakes to the test. The test results may not be conclusive if CORN is indicated, but if the inverse is discovered, at least we all know where we stand if we own some of the subject snakes.
South Mountain Reptiles

I guess the first person I would contact would be Frank Burbrink (link below). He's the one who has done the recent DNA work with ratsnakes. I know people who also work with DNA analysis, however it is with insects and plants. Burbrink would already have good comparison groups to work from. However because the cost is high, and the analysis won't result in a puplication, I doubt he would do it.

If you were to do it, I would only test animals whose moms history is in question. Since a lot of breeders just get a visible male to breed to established females to start there work. Evidence of any cross would be lost after the first generation.

It is very likely that interspecies gene flow occurs between most members of the Pantherophis genera in nature anyway. I don't see a problem borrowing alleles from other species, but it needs to be represented truthfully. If someone absolutely needs a "pure" corn then I would suggest a nice okeetee line. Why get a pure corn that is a morph anyway?
Link

OKAY:

1. I never talked about suspicious looks. I'm not that good.

2. I'd rather just enjoy a nice snake. my favorite is my wannabe possible bloodred. Some say it is, some say it's not, some say it's het or and outcrossed. I just really like the way she looks.

3. Although I can get into the genetics as it is something I like. It also destroys my enjoyment. At least some of it, and to different degrees. To long to explain which is which, and not worth it.

4. Don: Excellent idea to get some DNA tests. There has to be a college with facilities to jump on this. It would help them out as much as you, if not more. Talk to Randal's friend Bobby. I know he was in some MS of bio. He may know of what would be good universities to approach.

5. Me, I just collect what I like. Yes a few of the hybrids out there are cool looking. But I do not really support the idea. But if someone offered me a carpet x GTP cross, one of those super green and yellow banded ones, well, yes I'd take it. Call me a hypocrite.

6. Did I really hose my chances to meet you when I come down to Texas? If so, name the size and age of the blonde I must bring to correct this matter!

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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.herpzilla.com

BT

No, you didn't mess up any chances of accomplishing anything with me. Not from anything you said or did, that is. For security and insurances reasons, we can not have any visitors at our breeding facility. Did I mention that if I did let you come here, I'd need to introduce you to Uncle Guido? lol. "my blonde" wouldn't appreciate the cover charge you offered, but thanks for the offer just the same.

Your snake there could be most anything, but it's the belly that would be most revealing. A pic of that would go farther toward telling you if there is a chance it's carrying bloodred genetics. Not the final word, but more telling than the shot you sent.
South Mountain Reptiles

Guido? No problem, I'll bring the blonde for him. Maybe a cannoli too. lol

OK lots of pics. Belly is more solid up towards the head to mid body. Then starts to break up some. A few specs of black that you can see.

Also she picking up some white on her saddles. More now than when I got her. I AM NOT claiming anything. lol Just interesting.

I say I really like her, as I was never into corns. Now jumping back into the hobby I'm on corn overload. But if I had her back in 1974, people would be drolling over her. I would think?

Anyways, thanks for your time Don.

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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.herpzilla.com

Her belly is classic CRIMSON corn. I'd bet my next paycheck she's a crimson. Don't judge her for her dorsal coloration and pattern. From the top, she looks like she could be a strawberry (SWR - Jim Stepflug), but her belly is dead-on for crimson.

Again, none of this is the 'final word'. Only breeding trials will prove her out and since crimson is just a "look" within the hypo A line, you'd just get all hypo A corns if you bred it to a hypo A. Is the shed skin completely clear like an albino? If you have bred her to anything, let us know what the babies are.
South Mountain Reptiles

What is classic crimson about the belly? I liked crimsons before I saw candy canes. I never thougth of her as a crimson?

I plan to breed her to a male blood. At least I think he is at this point.

The male on the left. He's clearly more classic blood. Not a super one, a bit of black here and there, and time sill tell on diffusion as he he suppose to be only 2 years old.

Also another shot of the crimson? REALLY? lol (before she started to show white)

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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.herpzilla.com

Her atypically corn snake belly is exactly like the belly of most crimson and milk phase corns that were started by Rich at Serpenco.com
South Mountain Reptiles

Sorry I missed a part. STRAWBERRY. Don your killing me. More stuff to research.

Let me ask you very simply, based on what you see, what would you breed her with?
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.herpzilla.com

Nothing wrong with breeding her to a bloodred, but don't try to figure out what you have. If her shed skins are clear, she's a hypo. If you breed her to bloodred, you're on second base for hypo bloods. Nothing Walmart about that. They're handsome and still have a good value in the market.

If you wish to promote her looks, breed her to a strawberry or crimson. You'll see many different looks in the progeny since those snakes are not recessives (except that they're hypo A corns).
South Mountain Reptiles

Don, I really am a neophyte on so much of what you are talking about. I was a lizard guy.

But my last question. She shed the other day and I knew there was a good reason why I did not remove it. lol

As for "strawberry" this is the first I heard of it, and no real idea what a strawberry is suppose to look like.

Sheds below, they look "clear" to me. I do not see the saddles in them, but teh top is a bit darker than the belly. Thats what I took as meaning clear.

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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.herpzilla.com

Okay, now we know you have a hypo A. Like I said, it looks just like some of the crimsons I've produced and I'm really not sure if strawberries are actually hypo A corns. Hence, the best bet is that you have a crimson there. The belly smacks of crimson. That's a Miami phase origin of a hypo A.
South Mountain Reptiles

>>Okay, now we know you have a hypo A. Like I said, it looks just like some of the crimsons I've produced and I'm really not sure if strawberries are actually hypo A corns. Hence, the best bet is that you have a crimson there. The belly smacks of crimson. That's a Miami phase origin of a hypo A.
>>South Mountain Reptiles
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.herpzilla.com