Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I posted this message to a string of comments last week, but I think they are too old to get any looks, so here it is again.

I know strange variations are acknowledged based on looks, but with mutations for looks there are probably 100s that go unnoticed. Do you think that some of these look variations have harmful mutations attached? I dont' mean physically attached, but mutations that are being crossed back and forth along with the looks? No one ever talks about that stuff, but imbreeding to produce albinos and other such variations are also creating snakes and other animals that have unfavorable characteristics that are not seen by the eyes. There could be organ, reproduction, growth, senses that could be adversely affected and no one will even know until it gets bad. Do you think these Leus. that all died may be harboring more than just the white look? They might have a detrimental mutation. Would like to hear what the rest of you think, or of any problems that have risen, genetically speaking. Imbreeding does bring out awesome looking variations, but also weakens genetic diversity causing negative mutations to activate as well (though these cool lookers would be considered negative in the wild).

Matt

If there are harmful mutations, then they will weed themselves out. Who will pay top dollar for a mutation that ends up producing babies that will just die upon hatching? There is also little risk to the normal pattern stock and the passing of these genes, especially if attached to a color or pattern morph, will be of no threat, so why worry? I have thought about this too with the jaguar morph, and hope that it can be resolved to further look at this genetic anomoly. There are definately many genes at play, and it would be a shame if they were not able to be explored because of genetic defects. I guess the chances may be greater when there are many genes affected. Until the jaguars have been around for longer, it is difficult to say exactly what is going on with the dead leucistics and other problems that have arrisen. Hopefully the people who have them now can get them going well (We're rooting for you Will!)
Justin J
Australian Addiction Reptiles

My point is that I don't think they would "weed" themselves out. Since so many people are breeding direct descendants or siblings to each other they will bring many "rare" recessive genes that are not shown alone to the forefront. I don't mean that they have to do with the color, but the reason that people breed these relatives is because if they just bred them to any ole snake then the color mutation would not show, same goes for any other "rare" recessive gene. Since more and more people are breeding relatives they are also combining other recessive genes that might show up once in a decade or century in the wild (because two with this gene would be statistically be very difficult to find each other and breed).

THis is the idea that I wanted to see if others had ideas on. Do you know of any adverse mutations that have occurred? Kinked tails? Interal organ disorder or development problems? Mutations that harm egg or sperm development? SInce these problems would not be visible to the naked eye like color mutations, only a genetic chromosome profile would show them. I don't think many outside of academica would be doing this. So from this idea, "weeding" out the "carriers" would be next to impossible because it would be invisible.

Matt

Jaguars are definitely not what I would consider to be "inbred." After all, this is the first year that Jag x Jag breedings have even been done. Prior to this year, every Jaguar in existence had been produced by breeding a male Jaguar to a completely unrelated "wild type" (normal) female Coastal. That would mean that up until this year all Jags originated from approx 6 or 8 completely unrelated female Coastals. Even if you consider the Jag x Jag projects from this year, I think it would be pretty safe to say that at least some of the adults that were bred together had different/unrelated mothers, ...which IMHO would allow for plenty of genetic diversity, even for related Jag x Jag breedings since it would only have slight genetic overlap.

-----
Will Leary
Reptilicus Reptiles

Will,
I was not referring to Jags in particular, but to the "whole" captive realm. With a colorful mutation arriving from one individual, and collectors buying pairs of descendents that are closely related.

The reason that I brought this up did have to do with the Leus. carpets, since they all did not make it, but I was not trying to put them down. I think they look awesome. I just wanted to hear any stories of any harmful mutations that have been pinpointed. I was interested in knowing how they were pinpointed, and what happened to the known animals. Any reptile examples, not simply carpets. This was just something that I thought about when I saw the poor Leus. Since I pondered it, I thought there had to be a few people with thoughts. I must scare people away. I have posted some ideas or pictures in the past and don't get much interest. I think I will have to change my screen name lol

Matt

Who here is going to Daytona? I'm in Tallahassee, so I think I will probably make a day trip out of it, same as last year.

Matt,

Sorry - I hope my last post didn't come across too harsh, or "matter of fact," because it wasn't meant to be. I often find it difficult to express tone/mood in written form. LOL. Anyway, I agree that most morphs are bred back to the parents & sibling multiple times (& in some cases too many times) to achieve the desired offspring. However I don't think this is necessarily the case with the Jags. Trying to determine whether or not the Leucistic form of the Jaguar is a harmful trait will take more time. I may try to add more to the topic tomorrow since it's getting late.

P.S.
I think most of the forums have just been relatively slow lately, so don't take the lack of responses personally. We'll be at the Daytona Show so stop by our table and say hello (#378).
-----
Will Leary
Reptilicus Reptiles

I can think of three examples where inbreeding has possibly led to detrimental results.

1. Bug-eyed leucistic Texas rats
2. One-eyed albino Bcc
3. Low fertility in striped corn snakes

I don't know if inbreeding has actually been confirmed as the culprit for these anomolies, though.

Jake

The Jaguar projects are still in the infancy stage at this point. It is too early to even suggest inbreeding as a cause for hatch/survival rates. Last I checked, only 12 or so people in the world own a Jaguar (any type) or Jaguar siblings.

Plus, the jaguar bloodline will become even more diverse!
Imagine if a True Hypo Carpet(non-Jaguar;Australian Hypo type or an Axanthic Carpet was bred into the bloodline.
Well, all I can say is it is coming!!

Henric or I will post some pics soon!

We would love to meet everyone going to Daytona! Our booth is close to Will Leary's; Our booth is #368
Look for the MoreliaInc. Banner!!

Best Regards
Cori
-----
Best Regards,
Cori
SnakeRoom.net

individual offspring probably don't move that far for their birth place. They find a niche and utilize it. Hence all the locale specific color and patterns. It's nature way of selective breeding for these traits. And there are no known one eyed, kinked tailed locales that I know of. Just more food for thought.
-----