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Well, for those of you who recognize the post title you'll remember I was lamenting what the BP craze has done to the diversity of shows like the NARBC. Well, I spent both days at the NARBC in Tinley, IL looking around and I'd have to say it was every bit as disappointing as I thought it'd be. Fully 80 percent of the show was BPs, with about 15 percent being Leopard and Crested Geckos, and Bearded Dragons and about 5 percent everything else, meaning misc. ratsnakes, kings, chelonians, etc. VERY disappointing.

I did come away with probably one of the most RARE animals in the entire show though - a yearling male COMPLETELY NORMAL HET-FOR-NOTHING WILD TYPE Cornsnake. Yeah, I know a Cornsnake. Nothing exciting there but I have a couple lonely females (Normals as well) and I haven't had eggs incubating for years so I figured what the hey? On Sunday I did make an end of the day impulse purchase as well which was a nice sized female Corn, also wild type but apparently a wild type of hypo since she's lacking in black borders around blotches. There were some ratsnakes of interest however - King Rats, Leopard Rats, and Kunisir Island as well as a few Coxi but that was about it.

There were literally about 2 or 3 Coxi and about 6 King Rats and about 3 or 4 of any other type. Of course there were a few people selling some Corn morphs but no normals on hardly any of those tables. And just table, after table, after table of Ball Pythons. It actually makes walking through a rather large show hall pretty easy because if you don't stop to look at the same look-a-like snakes [BPs] at every booth you get through pretty quickly.

I gotta say that BP morphs just don't do it for me. Not that I'm a big fan of any morph or any snake to begin with, but when the look only slightly different from a normal, it's hard to get excited and even harder to justify paying thousands of dollars.
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Matt Campbell

"I only went out for a walk and finally concluded to stay out till sundown, for going out, I found, was really going in." John Muir

The best looking corns in my opinion are the originals.Ive had hypos and amels but sadly I traded them away last year.Jimmy a while back coined the name (naturals) and I like the sound of it.Im going to get a few naturals if I can find some with thick black borders.As for the balls.There are none in my future.I will skip tinley until the craze dies down.Im 100% behind your post.
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If lead paint is so deadly why do they make it so delicious?

Matt said,
“COMPLETELY NORMAL HET-FOR-NOTHING WILD TYPE Cornsnake.”
Although the morphs are often beautiful, keeping naturally occurring patterns keeps them in perspective.
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I went to an Eastern Kentucky show this past weekend as well, just to look around, and saw the same in Ball Pythons. It’s probably a good thing in the long run, since most people shopping, seemed to be looking for a generic snake pet. I was glad to see a great reduction in the quantity of Burmese Pythons, since these animals as general public pets, are causing the most negative press.
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Regards, Bill McGighan

>>I was glad to see a great reduction in the quantity of Burmese Pythons, since these animals as general public pets, are causing the most negative press.

You know, I noticed the same thing, thankfully. There was a really large reduction in the amount of Burms, Retics, and most scary of all African Rocks. About three years ago there were far to many Af-rocks for my liking. I'm sure I missed some Burms and Retics simply because they'd have been mixed in with the BPs and if you're not stopping to look at BPs you'll probably miss those, but still - I think there was a significant reduction. I agree with you - that's a good sign.
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Matt Campbell

"I only went out for a walk and finally concluded to stay out till sundown, for going out, I found, was really going in." John Muir

I totally know what you mean. I live in Denmark, and sadly its more or less the same here. But with a twist.
I'm into ratsnakes, and one very select type of constrictor(Blood pythons, they're just too cute! ;o)), but here in the DK, you're basically a looser unless you like BP's. And even more so, for BP morphs. I generally dislike morphs. Except the Bloodred corn. I like that one. But it's really sad, very few people have any type of rat snake any more. (Again i'm speaking for DK only.) It's either pastel this or jungle that .... Sad, damn sad! So i'm with you on this one matt!

future ( a hopefully very short WAVE )! Good shows / expos gone bad. Meaning > the rentable tables it seems wouldn't be rented out if the BP breeders wasn't there. Common economics are present at this time on the shows. yes, I remember ALMOST the same with leopard geckos and bearded dragons. Now they are saturated as to only a few breeders are at the shows. the BPs will go the same way and I don't have any doubt about that. The thing that gets me is that some of these shows use to limit the numbers of tables rented to same reptile but here we go again on the economics of the shows. Just recently at a show a young person dropped about what I determined was $10,000 on ball morphs and here 2 weeks later comes this new ( not really new but the way they advertise themselves ) BP morph breeder and their prices are about half almost of the morphs that the young man purchased. Now we all know the reason that the young guy did in fact purchase the morphs and as he stated. All I could do was to shake my head on his planes of returns and think by the time that he actually did breed his purchases of neonates to juvies how the market will be VERY saturated by then.
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I may be old , cantankerous, crabby, and cynical, but......

Yeah, I know it's only economics right now but I think in some part this is driven by herping in the internet age. A lot of BP breeders tell you to look at the the prices of Cornsnakes when the first morphs came out and then tell them they're doing anything wrong with pricing them the way they are. I think what is driving this and making it so much worse is that as soon as some new morph or 'combo' comes out then word gets out much quicker than back in hey-day of Corns when it would've been more word-of-mouth or waiting on those pricelists to arrive in the snail-mail.

I also hear a lot of breeders touting their return on investment, even accounting for lower prices on some morphs by the time you're able to produce and sell your own. While that may have been true initially, I think the market has become so saturated that it's about to crash and at that point you'll see prices fall drastically on probably all those morphs. I think to sell at a big show like Tinley a breeder is taking a real gamble.

As I read the info, a single 8ft table cost something like $395 with no electricity. If you're selling hatchling Corns, other Rats, or Kings, you can probably pack a lot of merchandise into that space, but still even if you're selling an average priced animal for $40 each, you have to sell something like 10 of them just to cover the cost of the table for the weekend without taking into account your hotel room or travel costs. I think that also figures heavily into why there weren't more non-BP breeders at the show - it's probably tough to justify going and spending all that money when you're not pimping $1000 animals.

I guess we can only hope that when this whole BP thing goes bust that it'll be our time again and that we'll see lots of Asian Rats and other cool Ratsnakes for sale as the next new craze. Maybe table after table of Coxi and Rhino Rats, and Mandarins, and maybe even Ptyas.
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Matt Campbell

"I only went out for a walk and finally concluded to stay out till sundown, for going out, I found, was really going in." John Muir

I hope Ratsnakes don't become a craze. It tends to ruin the purity and brotherhood that surrounds a species. Ratsnake people are the kind that you can stop and talk too at a show. BP people seem to only care how much money you plan to drop on their table. I miss the good old days when field herping was the priority, keeping and breeding came second.

That's sad, I'm only 29 and I'm already saying "the good old days". I just wonder how many of these BP breeders bought there first snake? Losers.

P.S. I do keep and breed BP's, but Black Rats are better.

It all about the $$. I have several new morphs of kingsnakes to the market including possibly an Ultra brooksi (similar to the ultra gen in corns)thing is nobody wants to pay anything for these because everyone is tying up their money in BP's.

The rest of the people are the the ones with $30.-$100. in their spending quota and thats not going to carry the colubrid market. So at this time there is zero interest in colubrids.

>>The rest of the people are the the ones with $30.-$100. in their spending quota and thats not going to carry the colubrid market. So at this time there is zero interest in colubrids.

You bring up a good point and one I touched on in a reply above. I think the Colubrid breeders are staying away because they can't hope to cover all their expenses especially when they're not selling animals with starting prices of $500 - $1000 or more. The thing that scares me is that this could have a really bad impact on Colubrid breeding because people from here on out might expect to be able to make seriously big money on any breeding project. Can you imagine everybody jumping on the bandwagon to try and breed Coxi or Gonysoma?

It'd be cool to see lots of tables selling those snakes, but only initially. Then you'd see the artificial price controls on the market - people breeding Coxi and complaining because someone else is selling cheaper and ruining their profit margins. Or worse yet, people selling Ratsnakes and touting themselves as breeders of 'Investment Quality' animals. I about gagged every time I saw that joke of a catch phrase on someone's booth.

I only hope that if Colubrids come back into popularity in the next couple years that it isn't at the expense of the hobby and by that I mean selling only ridiculously high-dollar animals that only other breeders or people with tons of disposable cash can touch. That, and I hope that the 'new' generation of herper is still able to appreciate normal average snakes and not just some high-dollar manufactured cultivar of an animal, because after all that's all these morphs really are, just the snake version of some fancy rose. Something completely unnatural and manufactured, solely to make something new and different and to ulimately make money. It's a sad day when the average hobbyist will cease to appreciate a normal snake for what it is.
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Matt Campbell

"I only went out for a walk and finally concluded to stay out till sundown, for going out, I found, was really going in." John Muir

"The thing that scares me is that this could have a really bad impact on Colubrid breeding because people from here on out might expect to be able to make seriously big money on any breeding project. Can you imagine everybody jumping on the bandwagon to try and breed Coxi or Gonysoma?"

I personally can't wait! I would just sit back and watch the price drop until I could actually afford one.
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0.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"
0.0.1 MO Locale Black Ratsnake "Molly" (Flogging Molly)

"You can only take my money for so long. And then I don't have anymore, and then I get angry!"

I buy the snakes I want.If they fall in the 25$ to 100$ range thats perfect.Im not a huge fan of morphs,crossbreeding or anything that's been inbred to death.The last show I attended someone called my bairds junk snakes.That man is lucky there were too many witnesses.

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If lead paint is so deadly why do they make it so delicious?

>>I buy the snakes I want.If they fall in the 25$ to 100$ range thats perfect.

It's definetely true that you can own a lot of nice snakes for not a lot of money. I have yet to pay any more than $50 for any single snake I own and in my opinion I think I have some really gorgeous natural animals. I agree on the Baird's. I think they're one of the more understated Ratsnakes. They have a very underrated subtle beauty.
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Matt Campbell

"I only went out for a walk and finally concluded to stay out till sundown, for going out, I found, was really going in." John Muir

I breed a very diverse collection of animals. I have boas, balls, corns, kings and rat snakes. I haven't sold at a show yet but plan to in the next few years. I have been to a fair amount of shows rangeing from the large, like the NC show to the small, like the Beaver PA shows. I think alot of breeders fall short in certian aspects of retail sales because of lack of a certain flair at their tables. I've seen guys who have rather "plain" ( oh, don't kill me for that, you know what I mean..) snakes who sell out every show because of the service they provide. Case in point, Tim S of Third Eye. I didn't need anthing off of his table but I bought animals from him because he seems like he truly cares for both his animals and the customer. One of his corns I bought died 2 days after I got home. Things happen, I'm a breeder I know this, I mentioned it to him at the next show and he gave me another one, no questions asked! That is the hallmark of a true bussinessman and a herper in general. Are we, the colubrid people providing the customer what they need or are we sitting down in our lawn chairs watching potential customers pick over our stuff then watching them walk down there to the dang ball python guys and spend OUR money at THEIR table? GET up out of that chair and sell! Sorry, I used to be a recruiter. But it is some thing to think about, are we provieding any kind of competition? If some one calls your snakes junk snakes and there is too many witnesses, follow them to their car! Now lets get out there and make it happen! I will see you in 09'!

I'm so relieved to see some like-minded people in this hobby.

Give me a normal any day over some clear-skinned faded-out blood-blisters-for-eyes inbred pepto-bismol-pink monstrosity.

Also, am I the only person in the world that thinks the ball python trade is a lot like the alpaca trade? People buy alpacas thinking they're going to make tons of cash on selling the hair/fur/whatever. But they find out that the only way to make money is by marketing alpacas to other people and pawning them off as money-makers. A vicious circle.

it is a vicious cycle and almost pyramid somewhat scheme. But not pyramid scheme against the law as pyramid schemes are classified as such. maybe " net working " scheme ? No. I don't have a problem with the famous and the very knowledgeable people in the industry because they sure did their work to produce animals with knowledge and getting out there to be known and the money they spent to achieve all factors. but now we have these newbies ( my opinion and mine only )that are really just into the money aspects of it. That is really to bad because again in my opinion, they are riding on the coattails of the pioneers of producing and the work that went behind to produce. But I guess if one really looks at the whole picture, this industry like others, was going to have to head this way one of these days anyway.........
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I may be old , cantankerous, crabby, and cynical, but......

I've worked reptile shows for only three years now, but, like everyone in this post, I have noticed a decrease in available rat snakes, big pythons and beardies and an increase in balls.

I sell, and have only sold, corns and other rat snakes (bairds, Asians, obsolettus, subocs). I have had no trouble at all making my table rent, as well as, making a nice profit. Why? I'm up on my feet moving from one end of the table to the next, not really selling the snake, but introducing people to the snake, to me, and to my business guarantee.

Most people who attend these shows are only wanting a snake for their kids. They have a lot of fears concerning their child's safety, as well as, their happiness. I let them, and the kids, handle the snakes. I talk to them about the snakes and try to assure them that their decision to buy a snake, vis-a-vis a puppy, is a good one and is not "silly." I also give people the bare facts about my snakes, good and bad. For example: Rat snakes might bite, but a cat or a dog bite will hurt a lot more.

I want my customers to be satisfied. One way I do this is to make it a point to know what other sellers are selling. That way, if a customer wants a bloodred and I don't have any, I can tell them where they can get one, if any are available. Another way is to assure them that their purchase from me includes a guarantee. If, for any reason within the first month after buying the snake, the customer is not satisfied with the purchase, they can bring it back for an exchange, or a refund. My unofficial slogan is: "I'd rather see you happy with your new snake, than make a lot of money."

The snake will sell itself. I'm selling me and my customer service.

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Gregg
The Corn Snake Pit

as a reptile show and vendor and first one attended 15 years ago, people were buying " pets ". Then as a few years went by,it was every other person that was interested was looking for a breeder type of thing and anywhere of small investment to large investment. Remember these shows were in the days of the burm craze and the colubrid market was very healthy in price and motivation. The reptile show and expo exploded in the hobby and in my very honest opinion perpetuated < ? the industry. Then came the designer and morphs and hit the rat snakes ( corns ) market then went on to the milk snake family. Then it made a turn to the lizard kingdom with the saturation of leopard geckos and bearded dragon. The snakes took a virtual downward spin in the market and what seemed to be a very spiral down in price and only very recently held somewhat steady but not like it was. BUT it didn't last as long as some of us thought it would. Now it seems like a new age thing is upon us on certain species and a stimulation of new morphs and designer pythons has taken over. I can't really pin point the reason other than a FAD > ? a sensationalism of some kind > ? a false hope or allure of investment and or returns of profit of most people thinking ? I keep looking back at the gray-banded king snake craze and the effected market and the never return of profit that the species once held ( although never of price as in the current BP market ). I do know that saturation is everything and the return of the wheel will happen and has happen in this industry several times of past but with consequences of profit and interest / popularity. Something keeps bothering me though as a hobbyist and being a past member of the industry........will saturation be achieved by just more animals produced than can be kept / sold / wants and desires by the general public ? Now ? The future if the mass breeding keeps going the way it is now ? Then how about the generation gap of age ? Will we still see a huge interest of certain population of certain age wanting to keep reptiles ? Remember that while we are in the mode of our hobby and have been, there are factors that is making the keeping of herps harder and harder in proposals and laws that most of us had never had to deal with before. AND I don't mean just laws of city, township and or state but insurance as in health and home insurance with keeping reptiles now. I can name several city's that even BPs are not allowed. I can name several city's where ANY large constrictor and yes, this includes balls that needs to be registered or permitted to keep in city limits. I can name some of the major insurance companies that will not insure if reptiles are kept on premises. I can name some health insurance companies that specifically ask if reptiles are kept as pets............
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I may be old , cantankerous, crabby, and cynical, but......

Reptile shows used to be more of a meeting. A chance to catch up on friends, and trade stories of our favorite herp moments. Now they are a chance for people to show off what fancy new morph they have and you don't. It's a chance to feel better about your place in life based on how much better you are than anyone else.

This has done one great thing though. It has got me back into the heart of what started my interest in herps, field herping. Field herping is still about stories, friends, a nice campfire, and your choice of coffee or beer.

It's kind of the same here in Europe, the emphasis seems to be less on Ball Python morphs in particular but more on ridiculously expensive (boid) snakes in general. Last time I went to Houten, I saw a Black Eyed Leucistic Ball Python offered for sale for 145 thousand Euro (that's about 183 thousand USD). I actually didn't even like the snake, but even if I did and even if I had this kind of money to spend on snakes, I still wouldn't even consider buying a snake this expensive at a reptile show. Ratsnakes, both Asian and American, are still available, but not quite as much as they used to be. The same goes for Kinsnakes and Milksnakes. The only ratsnakes you can always count on are the Cornsnake morphs and Cornsnake hybrids. Until just a few years ago, I used to buy most (if not all) of my snakes at reptile shows like Houten and Hamm. Now I have to find my snakes on the internet, and I attend only one or two reptile shows a year. It used to be an exiting event. It used to be something to look forward to. Now it just sucks.

It's interesting to hear the a similar thing is occuring at shows in Europe. Somehow I think a lot of us U.S. hobbyists think of Europe as having a greater diversity of species available at shows versus here. Of course a lot of people have pointed out that many snakes that are not widely kept here that are native U.S. species have a greater appreciation in Europe.

Still, I think you make an interesting point. If we want variety in our Ratsnakes, we can always find it searching online websites of breeders and importers. It just may be that shows will continue to be dominated by fad species mainly because a lot of people go to shows intending to buy SOMETHING, whether they leave with what they originally wanted or something else it's the idea that a lot of people going to shows have money burning a hole in their pockets.

So, fad snakes may be more likely to net their breeders a profit versus other species not currently commanding more money. I guess this may be the dynamic of future shows and we'll simply have to shop online and have our snakes shipped. That's okay, but I still prefer being able to go to a show and see multiple representatives of whatever I'm looking for. You can see the same stock from different breeders and perhaps find one breeder who gives better customer service, as some other posters have mentioned.
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Matt Campbell

"I only went out for a walk and finally concluded to stay out till sundown, for going out, I found, was really going in." John Muir

Hi, I'm new to the hobby, but I had the same horrible experience at a reptile show. I was buying my second and last snake for a long time to come, and I had a list of snakes (all ratsnakes actually) that I would be happy with. I went to a show larger than the last one I had been to, expecting that I'd definitely find all of the snakes on my list from several breeders. As you may have guessed, I found exactly one breeder that A) had something I wanted and B) was not a mass-breeder that knew little about that species or color, or how it was going to grow up looking. I was shocked that there were only two licorice black rat - containing booths, and NO Texas locality Bairds, and no (baby) albino yellow rats, and that the CORNSNAKE colors I was interested in were not there, etc.... I was mostly looking forward to handling an adult ratsnake to see how they were like, but of course that was but a dream.

Anyways, I finally got my licorice black rat (my first choice to begin with) from a very cool guy named Rick Cunningham who took a lot of time to talk to me about one $45 snake. He had ALL the marks of a responsible breeder and was the only person I met there that was as interested in non-cornsnake rats as I was. If he wasn't there, I would have had no choice but to leave emptyhanded and wanting my $15 entrance fee back (plus the almost $20 I spent in transportation getting there).

The funny thing is (if I understood the situation correctly) he had joined a friend in breeding Ball Pythons, which he also had in his booth. However, he took as much time to talk to me about my ratsnake as he did to someone looking at a ball python. So what I'm wondering is... why is the ball python craze such a problem that it almost eliminates ratsnakes from a large show like this? Just go in there and sell your ratsnakes!!

I know I want another ratsnake already, even though I was certain this one would be my last snake. I saw several kingsnake/milksnake and corn booths there, so they must be making enough profit to cover their costs. I also know that the couple breeders that took the time to talk to me and had responsible breeder practices (knew about their snakes, had guarantees, made me disinfect my hands, had lights, etc...) made me want to buy a snake from them so badly that the only thing that stopped my was that they really had nothing even close to what I wanted (this is the courtesy that someone already mentioned makes the profit). There was only one thing they could have done differently - brought pictures of the parents... grrr...

Well, I'm sure that there are good reasons why this isn't so simple, but it would sure be nice, wouldn't it...

Oleg

I'm not sure if European reptile shows have greater diversity or not, since I have yet to visit an American one. All I can tell you that the diversity of affordable snakes is declining rapidly during the past five or so years, and that you can forget about this "greater appreciation" among European herpetoculturists for native American colubrids. Pituophis species, for instance, have about zero demand out here, not even the good stuff like Black Pines or Cape Gophers. The market for Kings and Milks seems to be completely saturated, and this goes for all ratsnakes as well, exept for some high end Cornsnake morphs. A good old fashioned Black Ratsnake, Okeetee Cornsnake, Eastern Kingsnake or Northern Pinesnake is almost impossible to find these days. Most hobbyists out here neither know nor care about these fantastic animals.

that i keep bringing up as to the cycle of herps being popular. that was then, don't know if it will make return trip this time on milks / kings and rat snakes as it has several times in past. That is my scary thought of even here in the USA. i'm old enough to have seen the " wheel " make its turn around several times in the past 2 decades and more but..............there was and still although small, a notion to get back to basics as in the pure strains and of true or pure genetics. But does this come with a age attachment of our generations ? It's almost seems to as in fads of morphs and designer herps with the younger crowd. This I say after looking at classifieds and attending reptile shows recently. Is it another " bombardment " of sensatulism or of a money thing as a perpetual investment ? I would hate to see it go this way but I get this feeling now. I also see an assumption that this morph thing and particular in some species as a wave and from my observation and down right speaking to some people, that is what they are saying or believing. The young man that spent approximately $10,000 at the last reptile show and maybe he didn't spend all #10,000 there, I had to just look the other way as he was explaining his future profits to my friend sitting next to me. The young person was in his 20ties, Did it matter that every other table had BP and BP morphs at this show ? Did it matter to him that he had neonates or juveniles that wouldn't breed for awhile and the saturation of market or market value would be even worse by the time he might produce ? Did it matter that his snakes would fall even greater in price and probably harder to sell in the future ? Did it matter to him that he is a un-known and probably will be when it comes time to try to sell his produced snakes ? Nope..........his eyes was on the pure money factor. But I'm not saying he didn't or won't not love his keeps. Just that he had no idea on what he was doing and was motivated and or had visions on returns of profit.
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I may be old , cantankerous, crabby, and cynical, but......

Well, again here we are. Clearly I think a lot of people [the buyer you mention in particular] are actually missing out on aspects of the herp hobby that a lot of us have fortunately been able to experience. The point has been made that somehow catching a wild snake and keeping that as a first snake is better than buying one in a store. I think I'd have to agree at least from a point of starting out in the hobby. When I was a kid, you couldn't go into a store and buy snakes and at least where I came from no one knew about breeder price lists. I don't know, did breeder price lists exist back in the mid 70s when I was a kid? If they did I sure didn't have access to them. You wanted to keep snakes, you went out and caught them. I think a lot of people are getting into herps intially because of an interest in herps but are quickly blinded by shiny dollar signs. I feel sorry for them. It'll be interesting to see what the next hot animal will be. Also it'll be interesting to see how it affects the diversity of shows. Still we should count ourselves lucky. At least we have access to a lot of cool stuff - you just have to look a little harder to find breeders or maybe you go out and collect stuff. I'm sorry to hear Hermann saying that there isn't the interest in U.S. natives over in Europe that there used to be. I almost seems like some of the same forces are at work over there as here. I'd say the bulk of colubrids I saw at the Tinley show were a lot of the typical morphs - hypo Milks of different species, Corn morphs, etc. So, yeah not a lot of diversity with the colubrids either.
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Matt Campbell

"I only went out for a walk and finally concluded to stay out till sundown, for going out, I found, was really going in." John Muir