Reptile & Amphibian Forums

OK, I have a male "Pink-eye" leucistic texas ratsnake and am looking to start a breeding group up. I am thinking of ordering 2 female texas ratsnakes, onew would be a normal that is het for leucistic and the other would be a leucistic. NOw i am planning on buying them as hatchlings and was wondering would how they would do if I kept the two females togeather year round tell I breed them. obviously I would have to take them out of the cage/rack etc to feed them, but I do this anyways with my other snakes. So any opions on this subject would be greatly appreciated. Thanx

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---------------I Fear two things in life.......God and my WIFE!

wow I should of used spell check before I posted the message. I am sorry for the typo's.
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---------------I Fear two things in life.......God and my WIFE!

Most people will tell you that corn snakes are not cannibalistic, and for the most part aren't, though there is a nice topic somewhere in this forum where one corn snake ate the other. When I saw one of my ribbon snakes devour the other (granted it was a ribbon snake), i started to think twice about keeping any of my snakes together. Then when I saw my female creamsicle fall out of a small tree in my tank and land on my male snow corn (both babies), and the snow immediately latched on and wrapped himself around, I decided for sure, no more keeping snakes together. I guess they were both kind of rare incidents, but it happens, and from what I hear, corn snakes are more docile than rats. Just my thoughts.
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2.0 Snow Corns
1.2 Normal Corns
0.2 Creamsicle Corns
0.1 Amelanistic Corns
0.1 Anerythristic A Corns
1.1 Amelanistic San Diego Gophers
0.1 Leucistic Texas Rat
2.0 Albino Striped Cal. Kings
0.1 Striped Cal. Kings
1.0 Leopard Gecko
0.1 African Fat Tail Gecko
0.2 Cat
0.1 Dog
0.1 Friend

This is an easy one to answer. Don't do it. There are plenty of reasons why you shouldn't and there are no good reasons for doing it. They will fight over food. If one gets sick, the odds are that the other one will too. If one of them regurgitates her food, you won't know which one it was. The list goes on and on. By a cage for each of them, and good luck with your breeding plans.

Thanx for the insight, I do appreciate it. I have never kept my snakes togeather, mostly because I have had kings and just got into ratsnakes not too long ago. I was just wondering if it was possible and if people did it? Maybe its not the best thing in the world to do though. thnx again
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---------------I Fear two things in life.......God and my WIFE!

The majority of the people who have been successful with the genus Gonyosoma have done so by keeping their snakes in pairs or small groups. I have corresponded with successful Gonyosoma breeders from all over the US, Europe and Canada and I think all but one have kept them in groups.

I would also say that historically Europeans have tended towards communal housing and have been very successful with breeding many species. In parts of Europe there are strict humanitarian laws that require walk-in sized cages for something like an arboreal ratsnake. It's much easier for them to keep their snakes in groups than to literally have multipe cages larger than their showers.

I have a German book on Gonyosoma. It was translated for me then I also had a German snake keeper I know translate a specific part for me.

Both translators agreed the book says that German humanitarian laws require a 5'x5'x5' cage for a single adult Gonyosoma oxycephala. If more than one specimen is kept in the cage the size should be increased by 10%.

Obviously a lot easier to just have one slightly oversized cage and keep multiple specimens rather than several cages that large.

And it's hard to argue with the success that European keepers have had with many difficult species. Not to suggest that it's entirely due to communal housing in large cages, but I hardly think it's a bad idea.
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Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Jave local (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

1.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Celebes locale (Black & Tan)

>>And it's hard to argue with the success that European keepers have had with many difficult species. Not to suggest that it's entirely due to communal housing in large cages, but I hardly think it's a bad idea.

Chris brings up a good point and I think typically objections have more to do with snakes having issues being housed together in cages that typically are barely big enough for one snake. I know many people would suggest keeping an adult Cornsnake in a cage measuring 48x24x12 - the typical size for an average cage by someone like Boaphile Plastics. I would argue that a cage of that size is just barely adequate for a single animal and doesn't allow for creating a true thermogradient let alone multiple acceptable basking spots and hidespots. I think housing several individuals of the same species together can work but a lot more care needs to be taken to design the habitat - more care and thought than typically gets expended on housing even a single snake.
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Matt Campbell

"I only went out for a walk and finally concluded to stay out till sundown, for going out, I found, was really going in." John Muir

>>Thanx for the insight, I do appreciate it. I have never kept my snakes togeather, mostly because I have had kings and just got into ratsnakes not too long ago. I was just wondering if it was possible and if people did it? Maybe its not the best thing in the world to do though. thnx again
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>>---------------I Fear two things in life.......God and my WIFE!

Because you are talking about North American Rat snakes I will give you an answer I give corn snake owners who ask the same question. Corns are "rat" snakes so the advise goes hand in hand.

COHABITATION
MY OPINION

I feel it is best to keep snakes separate.
I know a lot of people can and do keep multiple snakes together without problems. I just feel the possible drawbacks need to be expressed.
When a person gets the experience and knowledge of each individual snake in his care, and wants to try co-habitation, it is up to them. They just need to be careful and observant enough to see and understand the subtle signs of stress in their snakes.
There can be definite drawbacks in co-habitation.
If one snake becomes sick there is a very good likelihood the other/others will get sick as well.
It may also take a while (usually too long) to determine which one is the sick one.
If one regurgitates its food you won't know which one unless you happen to get lucky and see it.
If one has a problem stool you won't know which one. Once again one may have a problem and by the time you figure out which one the other/others could end up with the same problem.
Although this is only a slight possibility, it is still a possibility and has been know to happen... one snake could eat the other. Cannibalism can and does occur with corn snakes. The smell of a prey item could trigger one snake to eat the other. Or simple hunger accompanied by a ready food source could do the same. Although uncommon, it has happened and is a possibility.
Another possibility is unwanted pregnancy. A female may become gravid and you may not have the knowledge, desire or ability to incubate the eggs, care for the hatchlings and find homes for them. With hatchlings comes added responsibility.
A lot of people rationalize by saying, "I will just put two males or two females together". That can work but mistakes can be made, especially with hatchlings. You could easily end up with a male and female.
There is also a chance of a female breeding too young or too small and becoming egg-bound. Although uncommon, it is a possibility and can happen.
With multiple snakes in the same enclosure you could easily loose them all if there happens to be an avenue of escape. Instead of losing one you could loose two or more depending on how many you decide to place together.
With multiple snakes in an enclosure, one or all of them could be stressed by the presence of the others. Stress can cause a drop in appetite and other health problems as well.
People will put multiple snakes in an enclosure and ask why one isn't eating.
When they are told it is probably due to stress caused by the other snake, the response is almost always the same "they like each other, they are always under the same hide together". Well this probably just means "that" hide or area of the tank has the optimum conditions they are looking for.
Snakes do not LIKE each other or ENJOY each other’s company.
There is no capacity for snakes to "like" or "enjoy".
I have kept multiple snakes together, without problems, but have made a choice to keep them separate. There are NO good arguments as to why you SHOULD keep them together but there ARE several good arguments as to why you SHOULD NOT.
So, in my opinion, although people do it successfully I just don't think it is worth the risk.
If you decide to keep multiple snakes together, watch closely for any signs of appetite loss, shedding problems, regurgitation or “personality” changes. These could all be signs of stress.
You would also want to feed them in separate containers and give them an hour or so before putting them back together.
My 2 cents
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

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All of my rat snakes are kept in pairs. I have never had a problem with feeding, cannibalism or breeding. I feed them in separate cages. They also have fairly large Vision cages. I suppose if the day comes that I have a problem, I may reconsider but, right now, I'm comfortable with my approach. The one big caveat, only one male per cage. Robert Applegate even keeps Kings in communal cages. I kow this isn't the poular answer but I wanted to make the point that the answer isn't an iron clad "No Way!" It can be done very successfully. More importantly, you need to be cofortable with yur decision. Why do I do it in pairs? Primarily so I can have more space for larger cages. How many zoo enclosures do you see with multiple snakes?
Alright, i've said my piece. I'll go away quietly now.

I have to agree with both sides of this issue.

RobertIIII,

Officially I would agree with Draybar, Elaphefan, and jswanson737 in their advice. Don’t mix them.

Keeping large North American Rat Snakes in a solitary mode is the right thing to do if:
...You are new to snakes and haven’t learned to “read” their behaviors,
...Or your cages not spacious,
...Or if you don’t have the time (as most working folks don’t),
...Or you don’t feed them enough and they are too hungry,
...Or there is a large disparity in the size of cage mates.
...It’s true that when one is sick, you can’t always tell which
...one.

However…..

Seemingly contrary:
I keep all my North American Rat Snakes (with baby Rats, Kings and other ophiophagous snakes, all bets are off), exactly as Mark Banczak said:
“All of my rat snakes are kept in pairs. I have never had a problem with feeding, cannibalism or breeding.”
.
Considerations for my inconsistency:
Larger cages let the animals escape each other.
I have time to baby-sit a feeding, since I’m semi-retired.
I keep animals together of relative equal size.
My animals eat rats, not mice, when they are 4 feet plus.
I separate the most aggressive eaters until all in the cage have swallowed their rats completely.

I keep either pairs or triples with only one male in Vision cages (only model 222).

They brumate in the same cages. I just shut the shed down in winter.

With several variants of obsoletus I’ve never witnessed them mate but I have fertile clutches every year.

I treat the sick snake issue by treating the whole population in the cage, not the individual.

Again I recommend keeping them separate as Draybar, Elaphefan, and jswanson737 said, but communal cages, like Zoos and the European method, can be done and be advised that many of the sweater box paradigms are not the only games in town.
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Regards, Bill McGighan

This issue has been looked at from both sides and there is good information to make a decision by.
good luck
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

Well I appreciate everyones opinion! Thank you for all your response's.
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---------------I Fear two things in life.......God and my WIFE!

Just say no.I could but wont.They can be with each other for a few days in the spring.I wont condemn experienced people that do.They know there snakes and what it takes to let them thrive.Newbies on the other hand well,just hang around the corn forum enough and you will get your answers.
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If lead paint is so deadly why do they make it so delicious?