Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I want to thank everyone for all their responses and input! I really appreciate all the advice! Here's an update on the two turtlies:

Dozer's Hibernation:
Per PHRatz's advice, I've decided to keep Dozer indoors this winter. I have a 55 gallon rubbermaid that I've set up for him in my office. While it is still warm outside during the day I will let him outside in the enclosure with Daisy, but at night (since the low is now in the 30's) I will bring him inside. Because he will be in such a small enclosure all winter, I'll make sure he gets some play time out side of the rubbermaid for at least an hour every day. As PHRatz said, this will give me the time to monitor him and make sure he is healthy enough to hibernate next year. Daisy will be hibernating outdoors. I've already piled TONS of leaves on top of their enclosure (which is now almost 2 feet higher than the rest of the yard) - and she has started digging down much deeper at night.

Plants for the outdoor enclosure:
I tried to find a low blueberry bush as suggested by StephF but I had no luck. I was told at numerous gardening centers that they are out of season. I purchased a few other plants in the hope that they would work out. I have a small Hosta (which will become dormant in the colder weather but grow back every year), a dwarf spruce (which at 12 feet full grown will eventually be too big for the enclosure), and an arborvitae (which only gets to be 2.5 feet tall). I thought I found the perfect plant with the Arborvitae... It's the perfect size, its an evergreen so it will survive all winter... AND it wasn't on the poisonous plant list I found on the California Turtle and Tortoise Club website. However... I did some more research on this little shrub and on other websites it IS listed as potentially toxic to humans and pets. (SIGH!) I thought my search was over!!! If anyone has info on the toxicity of this plant in regards to turtles, please let me know. I'll probably plant the spruce for now since it is sooo tiny - It looks like the Charlie Brown Christmas tree!

Again, thanks everyone for all the great advice! I'll keep you updated

-----
My Kids:
Jack Russel Terrier: Skipper
Miniature Pinscher: Bambi
3 Eastern Box Turtles: Daisy, Dozer, and Magnum (yearling)
1 Red Eared Slider: Rosie
1 Twist Neck Turtle: Lilypad
2 rats: Clementine and Elsie

OK, I have my landscape designer 'hat' on, so I'll give you a list of native shrubs. Not all of these may be suitable for your area, because of your proximity to the coast, and because you're in a different climate zone from the one in which I usually work.

Try looking for these:

Inkberry Holly (Ilex glabra) (evergreen)
Oakleaf Hydrangea (Hydrangea quercifolia) var. "PeeWee"
Shrubby St. Johnswort (Hypericum prolificum)
Coast leucothoe (Leucothoe axillaris)
Coast azalea (Rhododenron atlanticum) (look for a compact grower)

Oakleaf hydrangeas can get really big, but "PeeWee" is a very compact (3'x3' or so) variety. The inkberry holly should be easy to find at a garden center. The other's may be a challenge but they are worth looking for.

These are all plants that are found where eastern box turtles roam.

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll call around to my local garden centers and see if they have any of those.
-----
1.0.0 Jack Russel Terrier: Skipper
0.1.0 Miniature Pinscher: Bambi
1.1.1 Eastern Box Turtles: Daisy, Dozer, and Magnum
0.1.0 Red Eared Slider: Rosie
0.2.0 Rats: Clementine and Elsie

Lilypad, are you in jersey? Have your turtles started to hibernate already. Mine have still been out during the day and at night they are not digging too deep. Just curious, thanks.

>>Lilypad, are you in jersey? Have your turtles started to hibernate already. Mine have still been out during the day and at night they are not digging too deep. Just curious, thanks.

Yes, central east coast. Last week they started digging and hiding all day. On the particularly warm days they would come out and bask. They hardly ate anything this past week so i have a feeling they are getting ready. I haven't seen the female at all since yesterday morning. I think she may have gone under since the low the past 2 nights has been 34F.
-----
1.0.0 Jack Russel Terrier: Skipper
0.1.0 Miniature Pinscher: Bambi
1.1.1 Eastern Box Turtles: Daisy, Dozer, and Magnum
0.1.0 Red Eared Slider: Rosie
0.2.0 Rats: Clementine and Elsie

Arborvitae...

This is a landscaping plant that is very closely related to the wild cedars. Many consider it to be a cedar. As such the oils it releases are fatal to most reptiles including boxies, especially in a closed situation.

Ric K.

>>This is a landscaping plant that is very closely related to the wild cedars. Many consider it to be a cedar. As such the oils it releases are fatal to most reptiles including boxies, especially in a closed situation.

If cedar plants are toxic to turtles, would cedar mulch be unsafe as a substrate? I was unaware of the dangers of cedar and I have been using it with my boxies for months! - The only other choice at my local shops is pine, and I was told not to use pine due to its negative effects on the respiratory system.
-----
1.0.0 Jack Russel Terrier: Skipper
0.1.0 Miniature Pinscher: Bambi
1.1.1 Eastern Box Turtles: Daisy, Dozer, and Magnum
0.1.0 Red Eared Slider: Rosie
0.2.0 Rats: Clementine and Elsie

Cedar & pine are both bad because they both have phenol in them. Phenol used to be the active ingredient in Lysol & it still is the active ingredient in Pine Sol. It does kill germs & other things as well.
Even though pet stores carry cedar & pine bedding for small animals it's always been a bad thing. It can cause respiratory problems and long term use can lead to liver problems. Why they sell it is beyond me.
I've known for years & years it causes problems for rodents but 2-3 years ago my DH told me that a coworker of his had lost his bearded dragon. He took it to the vet to find out why it died & the vet diagnosed liver failure. This guy had been keeping his dragon on cedar the whole time he had it.

Can you find cypress mulch at the garden center? That'd be much safer. If you can't find it maybe you could use a hay substrate like so many people do with tortoises?
Maybe plain potting soil? I cook that before I use it to make sure any mites or anything bad in it will die but it works well for my .. tarantulas LOL.

As for plants I don't know if this will grow for you but I had a huge honeysuckle plant a few years ago & turtles always gravitated towards it. Unfortunately my plant dropped dead. I plan to get more for the pen once the dirt is moved in.
-----
PHRatz

>>Cedar & pine are both bad because they both have phenol in them. Phenol used to be the active ingredient in Lysol & it still is the active ingredient in Pine Sol. It does kill germs & other things as well.

Yikes! I have about 12 bags of that mulch in my turtle pen!!! And its mixed in with the topsoil and leaves already. I don't know if I can possibly pull all of that mulch out of the pen... When I put the mulch in the pen, I dug down very deep and mixed it into the ground so it is spread through out the entire enclosure.

>> Even though pet stores carry cedar & pine bedding for small animals it's always been a bad thing. It can cause respiratory problems and long term use can lead to liver problems. Why they sell it is beyond me.

Cedar is unsafe even for ratties? I'll have to switch over to the recycled cardboard kind for Elsie and Clem. I know this is a turtle forum, but thanks for the including that info!

>>
>>Can you find cypress mulch at the garden center? That'd be much safer. If you can't find it maybe you could use a hay substrate like so many people do with tortoises?

Maybe I could try to pull out as much Cedar mulch as poss and then mix in a ton of Cypress - as I said, I don't think I can remove all the Cedar but I could definitely get some of it out.

>>As for plants I don't know if this will grow for you but I had a huge honeysuckle plant a few years ago & turtles always gravitated towards it. Unfortunately my plant dropped dead. I plan to get more for the pen once the dirt is moved in.

With her allergies I think my mother would kill me if I planted honeysuckle in our yard! I think I've settled on a hosta. It wasn't on any of the poisonous plant lists, it will attract slugs (which my turtles would love to munch on), and it's very leafy so the turtle will have a good place to hide. Plus, we already have some in our yard and they seem to thrive in the sandy soil. Thanks for the advice
-----
1.0.0 Jack Russel Terrier: Skipper
0.1.0 Miniature Pinscher: Bambi
1.1.1 Eastern Box Turtles: Daisy, Dozer, and Magnum
0.1.0 Red Eared Slider: Rosie
0.2.0 Rats: Clementine and Elsie

>>Cedar is unsafe even for ratties? I'll have to switch over to the recycled cardboard kind for Elsie and Clem. I know this is a turtle forum, but thanks for the including that info!

Cedar is the worst thing for ratties because they are so prone to respiratory illnesses to begin with, cedar can make that worse.
Aspen is ok, Carefresh is good.. you can buy Crittercare at Walmart, it IS Carefresh it just costs less. It's made by the same company that makes Carefresh, apparently they change the name for Walmart?
I've had groups do well on aspen, others not so depending on which bedding they breathe better with I use one or the other.
>>
get more for the pen once the dirt is moved in.
>>
>>With her allergies I think my mother would kill me if I planted honeysuckle in our yard! I think I've settled on a hosta. It wasn't on any of the poisonous plant lists, it will attract slugs (which my turtles would love to munch on), and it's very leafy so the turtle will have a good place to hide. Plus, we already have some in our yard and they seem to thrive in the sandy soil. Thanks for the advice

OOoooh the allergy thing. I understand that one very well!
My neighbors planted a bunch of oleander.. I so wish those poison plants would all drop dead!
-----
PHRatz

I often wonder the same thing, why things like pine are used for animal bedding. I discovered the problems you mentioned when researching what was best for rabbits, and I have always used aspen bedding.

The pet stores also sell corn cob bedding and my bird vet says that is horrible, very prone to growing mold, etc., so why do they sell it?

>>I often wonder the same thing, why things like pine are used for animal bedding. I discovered the problems you mentioned when researching what was best for rabbits, and I have always used aspen bedding.
Dollars are the bottom line. As long as they make money they'll sell anything. Just look at all the worthless products you can buy for reptiles... including pet turtles. None of that stuff is regulated by the FDA.
That shell cream really irritates me.. first of all turtles don't need that & second of all if you read the label & compare, it's really no different from human hand cream except it's waaaaaaaaaay more expensive!
Irritates the heck out of me but.. what can you do other than not buy it?

>>
>>The pet stores also sell corn cob bedding and my bird vet says that is horrible, very prone to growing mold, etc., so why do they sell it?

I know about that one, the USDA approves that one for use in laboratory rodents.. but I hate it too because it really does grow mold quickly when it gets wet & it's not soft.. walking on that will cause bumblefoot so I'd never use it myself. I surely wouldn't use it for my pet bird.
In the last 10 years I've seen so many worthless reptile products come & go.. why don't they just work on creating good quality useful things?
-----
PHRatz

Why use any mulch? When I first started my pen,
I just used the natural dirt that was there, but
added leaves. In the late fall I added some peat
moss and when they were finally hibernating, I topped
it all off with hay for extra insulation.

I haven't added any peat moss for awhile, but I always
add leaves and a little hay in the fall, then put a lot
of hay in when they are down for the winter.

When spring comes, I take most of the hay out and pile
it next to the pen and I use that to replace the hay
left in the pen after it breaks down. I try to use
leaves also, but they break down pretty fast. Ultimately
the hay and leaves break down and add to the substrate
naturally.

>>Why use any mulch?

My backyard floods ocassionally. Originally I wasn't going to even put them outside, but I was told hibernation is best for them. So I built a pen and added a lot of substrate so it was higher than the rest of the yard - about 2 feet now. That way, they won't have to dig down past the water table to hibernate. I found that mulch was a great substrate because its easy to dig through and it looks nice. I just didn't realize that cedar was so dangerous.
-----
1.0.0 Jack Russel Terrier: Skipper
0.1.0 Miniature Pinscher: Bambi
1.1.1 Eastern Box Turtles: Daisy, Dozer, and Magnum
0.1.0 Red Eared Slider: Rosie
0.2.0 Rats: Clementine and Elsie

I am from the north and have hever heard of cedar MULCH?
Cypress mulch yes. Totally agree that cedars are bad, mainly western aromatic cedar. But I have never heard of cedar mulch and I may have a use for it other than animals.

Also many types of cedar. Eastern white is a lot different than western reds.

But was this a misunderstanding of cypress mulch?

Thanks
-----
Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.herpzilla.com

I wonder if people are using the words 'mulch' and 'bedding' interchangeably... cedar bedding (or cedar chips) is a common pet bedding material available in just about any pet store. maybe that's what other posters are referring to.
When I hear 'mulch' I think of a shredded or chipped material that one uses in a landscaping or gardening context. There are hardwood, pine, and cypress mulch products on the market, some of which are at least partially composted: cedar chips are not marketed this way, nor would they make an effective mulch.

Cedar and it's oil related products are toxic to all reptiles....And many people suffer from reactions to breathing cedar oil.

Pine contains 50% less toxic oils but should be avoided with the use of reptiles.

These products were intended for Dog Beds, and rodents to rid them of flees and ticks.

Aspen bedding is not toxic to any reptiles. But milled peat moss would be a more prudent choice for a boxie's indoor/outdoor substrate.

For those of you who have cedar in an outdoor enclosure; it's less worrysome. In time, the oils will dissipate or may have already if they were there for a long periods of time. Boxies do come across cedar in the wild; however they have a chance to move away from it. Closed indoor enclosures warrant the most caution.

There is much published information on reptiles left on a bed of pure cedar. Over several weeks the animals become lethargic; refuse to eat, then die. But remember this is in a closed situation; where the oils can concentrate in the respiratory systems of reptiles.

Ric K.