Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Just saw an add posted by Ben Seigel Reptiles. They're selling
a few Rhinos that were bred by Ehrig (sp?).
Anyway, it stated they were pure, unpolluted bloodlines.
Have Rhinos been crossed with other cyclura? If so what?
And I would love to see some pix of these crosses.

Thanks,
E

Sales ploy. Rhino's, as far as I know, do not interbreed with other cycluras thank god. It's bad enough that we have to deal will lewisi/caymanensis, cayman/cuban, and lewisi/cuban crosses. I am, and hopefully others are trying to breed thier lizards to get animals a little closer to pure, or if they have pure animals, not breeding them to anything but another pure animal. As far as Bob Ehrig rhinos go, mine are all from him, and I love them. Very large and tame (after 2 to 3 years). Nice animals.

the lewisi hybrids are they are still garbage genetically speaking. And who to we have to blame for their greed?

Are you lurking again. I completely agree with you. Greed was the prime motivator in the nubila / lewisi mess. If the "founding fathers" were just a little more patient and decided to wait for the correct sire or dam instead of thinking "I don't have a female lewisi, so I'll just throw a cuban in with my male so this year I can make some quick cash" we could enjoy the fact that we would have had the real deal and command higher prices and be more selective of who buys our offspring. The good thing is, none of these U.S. lizards will ever be sent back to one of thier islands of origin, thus knowing the wild populations will never be contaminated.

.

the Sauromalus varius x Sauromalus hispidus hybrids? All in the name of trying to make a buck. Too hard to get permits so now they are hybridizing them to male a buck. What a shame. I was reading the CITES rules and in there it states that if one of the parents of a hybrid is listed then the hybrid is listed as well and falls under the same laws. I guess the USFWS doesn't go by these rules as they do in Europe. Tom BTW nice looking animal(the female) Mark.

Hey guys,not a regular contributor here, but the way this thread developed piqued my interest. I wanted to ask, but it seems pretty clear, that the p.o.v. here is that the hybrids are purely a product of greed, and lack of interest in preserving the integrity of the animal strain, etc. Just for the sake of clarity, are you talking about i.e. David Blair's animals? I assumed his and others like him where what your were referencing, but I wanted to make sure. Because from the thread here it sounds like the only issue was that breeders weren't being "a little more patient" and deciding not to "wait for the correct sire or dam." Instead thinking "I don't have a female lewisi, so I'll just throw a cuban in with my male so this year I can make some quick cash" to quote markm. But(and this is where I want correction if I am wrong), isn't it true that really that isn't the only factor? I am under the impression that if the bloodlines were kept "pure" as you say, I couldn't for instance, own one (as I do). I would be prohibited by law, and the fact that a hybrid is available makes it possible for me to own what is essentially otherwise an unattainable animal to average enthusiast. Is that not true? Could I own a "pure" blue? Without a mountain of paperwork? Thanks guys.
Jon

The answer to your question is both yes and no. I do not agree myself with hydridizing animals but that is only my personal opinion. By a quick buck I think Mark meant and what you were getting at in your post was: You are right you could not own one without a mountain of paperwork and even after the mountain of paperwork you probably would still be denied. So these guys breed these hybrids so that the can sell without a mountain of paperwork-essentially so they can get a high price for an animal that would look somewhat like a pure lewisi or varius without all the bs. It does go deaper than this though. The whole captive lewisi population was just about contamninated because someone and I want to say the guys name was Ramone Nogle hybridized these and were passing them off as pure. Hell maybe he didn't know his animals weren't pure for all I know. Soon these animals were being sold into proffessional institutions and bred back to pure animals therefore contaminating what was supposed to be pure bloodlines that may have been designated for release back into the wild. It turned out to be a major fiasco. The point is that it was a major setback to the lewisi breeding program because now all the animals had to be dna tested to see if they were pure or hybrids. A lot of people on these forums now say they have this and that % lewisi but I doubt anyone really knows. I guess it is not so bad when the animals are staying in the pet trade and are sold as hybrids with no chance of them getting back into the pure population as Mark stated.

I think you are probably right. I will only speak for myself here-
Most of us those on this thread have hybrids, I do. So I am a bit of a hypocrit though I did get mine before i was very educated in their conservation. I think a lot of the hydridizing was already happening before anyone really knew of the dire situation of the wild population. There are lots of people doing it not just Blair. You are right that you arent going to get a pure, and I assume you are referring to lewisi. Hybrid is the only way you are going to get a blue, semi-blue Cayman type cyclura.'If there is a demand some one will meet it. I took Mark's statement as bit sensationalized to make his point, which I got. Mark can explain himself.
With what I know now, I would get a C. caymanensis rather than a hybrid, though my hybrid is may favorite. That is just me, to each his own.
jf

Thanks for the clarification guys. I think from listening, that it seems like the problem was deceit, rather than the doing of it up front.
I do have a follow up question. In terms of the phrase "garbage" that term was used only in reference to the purity, not the quality, right? I mean, these animals are not "weaker" or more susceptible to disease, etc, right?

Thanks again, i love the forum, keep it up

Jon

I was refering to the purity. From what I have heard though the purer the lewisi the more difficult they are to produce- Smaller clutches and less number of fertile eggs.

Before I got my lewisi, I had to fill out a mountain of paper work and wait a year before I got my pair. I found out a year later when the breeder called me and said he just found out from DNA tests done on his animals at Texas A&M, that the father of my lizards and another male was pure, the mother was minimum 75% and the grandmother was minimum 50% (the pure males bred with the grandmother and the daughter). The breeder sincerely believed his animals were pure and was honest enough to call me. But you can imagine how deflated I was after I spent so much time and major cash trying to secure a pure pair (I was compensated).

Thats a good point about most most not being able to buy pure animals, but I feel, if one really want one, they'll jump through the whatever hoops it takes to get one. It would be nice for some private owners to have genetically pure animals as a backup, but only zoos do now. The best I can do now is work towards producing only pure "looking" lewisi.

Thanks for the info!

I'm new to these guys and I love them!
I just don't have much info about my "rescue" and they thought
he/she was 1 1/2 years old. To me that would not line up with
breeding season. It's 24" exactly with regrown end of tail.
Sound right?