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I'm in a debate with someone about box turtles in Ohio. He is far more knowledgeable than I and really knows his stuff, but I dispute his reality and replace it with my own! lol

OK, I live in Ashtabula Ohio. Far NE corner. West of me is Lake then Cuyahoga where Cleveland is in the middle. Eastern boxes are not suppose to me here (these 3 counties). But people do catch them on occasion. I suppose all could be pet releases? I doubt it.

I also moved to the country (bula-ville) and have seen a box in 1997 and then again in 2003. I just watched it walk behind my house in the rain. It may be the same turtle. I highly doubt this turtle was a release.

OK, my question. Just because a field guide or 1 or 2 researches showed no finding of any type of animal in a county does not mean there are possible small pockets of said animals. OK, that was a statement. So, do eastern boxes live out of the ranges of a field guide? Not in high numbers, but again small pockets. Small side note I live in the largest county in Ohio. A lot of area to me to claim box turtle free.

I'm looking forward to your posts even if you disagree.
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.herpzilla.com

You may want to contact the Ohio Dept. of Natural Resources, or Fish and Game or whatever they're called and ask to speak to someone there about it. They should have someone on staff who can answer your questions.
It may be entirely possible that there is a discrepancy arising from the way any wildlife survey was done, when it was done, etc.
I think that NE Ohio was probably part of the eastern box turtle's range at one time, and it may be that none had been found in a while and so they are presumed not to exist there.

Actually I do think the claim was they never were here?

I may have to call ODNR? But I'd rather try other methods first.
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.herpzilla.com

Not sure why you don't want to just contact someone at the Ohio DNR.

According to their website, eastern box turtles are found throughout the state of Ohio.

What is your source for the 'out of range' information, by the way?
Link

My best source is me. I have seen a couple. Others come to me with them saving them from the wild. I tell them to put them back where you got them.

I did call the ODNR, first reply was I cannot nswer anything!
lol

Then we talked. They have been spotted in most NE counties. At least according to his biologist. I'm satified.

Thanks
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.herpzilla.com

It really depends on who you get on the phone sometimes, doesn't it...

I had a little time on my hands and did a quick search for information about box turtles in NE Ohio.

I think that it is quite possible that the turtle (or turtles) you are seeing are natives, and not necessarily released pets.

I did find several references that indicated that box turtles had been Native to NE Ohio (Lake Co. among others), and other references alluding to the fact that they still are.

One National Park (Cuyahoga Valley) lists eastern box turtles as one of the reptiles found within the Park, and yet this geographic area is not within some range maps as illustrated in field guides.

Bear in mind that field guides are just that: they are intended to be somewhat portable and therefore are apt to contain very limited information. I find that they are best used as a place to start, not as the final word.

Given the fact that habitat is so fragmented throughout its range, by highways and other man made features, I'm inclined to feel that most box turtles live in 'isolated pockets' no matter where they are.

Cheers!

WOW, I was searching for 2 days. Can I please have the sites?
And many thanks
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.herpzilla.com

I didn't bookmark them, but one was the National Park Service (Cuyahoga State Park), The Ohio DNR, and the Ohio Historical Society (they had literature on box turtle remains found at archealogical digs of burial mounds and native villages etc. throughout the state).
I also have three different books here that show slightly different range maps: one shows box turtles as being found throughout Ohio.
I also looked at range maps that coincided too closely with state lines to be very credible (in my mind): same with county lines...

I appreciate your help greatly. May I ask the names of the books? I may want to buy them to hang up at our shop.

MANY thanks

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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.herpzilla.com

Just like upstate new york I thought northeast ohio boxies population had been hit hard by native americans. The field guide I have says that they had been nearly extirpated from those areas by native americans who used the shells for ceremonial purposes.

Point was made to me, that box turles were NEVER in extreme NE Ohio. I have been presented the task to present field guides, LEGIT field studies that show, reproducing populations for Ahtabula or Lake or Cuyahoga. Or ALL of them.

I am NOT a turtle expert. I just recalled boxies as a kid. And I have see 1 guy twice or 2 boxes on my property in Ashtabula. I know people out here too, that say they have found boxies and kept as pets. In my mind they were hard to find up here, not like farther south. But I did think they were here and still are in low numbers. Hence the debate and my mission to try to gather proof he approves of.

Again, many thanks, and if anyone has more info like field guid names years, etc please email me.

>>Just like upstate new york I thought northeast ohio boxies population had been hit hard by native americans. The field guide I have says that they had been nearly extirpated from those areas by native americans who used the shells for ceremonial purposes.
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.herpzilla.com

The books are:

North American Box Turtles, C. Kenneth Dodd

Turtles of the United States and Canada, Carl H. Ernst, Jeffrey E. Lovich, and Roger W. Barbour

The Reptiles of Virginia, Joseph C. Mitchell (this shows entire range maps for the species, not just in-state)

I tend to believe anything that Spuckler says....

>>I tend to believe anything that Spuckler says....

The key word you used is "tend", which infers you may keep you mind open to other ideas. Yes I too respect the CSG's views, opinion, and fine words of wisdom. But I live in Ashtabula county and saw a box when I was just finishing my log home in 1997, then I saw another or the same box in about 2003. I also work at a shop in the Cleveland area where people bring them in on occasion to be identified, and I always have asked where they caught them. BECAUSE, even before this issue came up, I was under the impression they did live up here but in low numbers NOW. This is what I was taught over the years. And it was nice to see people finding them. Well, I wish they would have left them, but I always advised to release where they caught them.

It seems to me Mr Spuckler, or his aka CSG, thinks all these caught eastern box turtles must be released pets. Illogical

I think the views of Mr. Spuckler may be enhanced from all the styro box I gave him.
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.herpzilla.com

Here's a link to the Cuyahoga Valley National Park site that specifically mentions box turtles as one of the native species of reptiles found within the park. The park is just south of Cleveland.
Link

Thank you

I looked up some other info and passed it on based on the other post you gave me. If anything I have learned there are some really cool sites out there. The Historical Society site was great. I first looked up the box info, then found myself looking up many other unrelated topics.

It turned into a good learning experience for me.

Many Thanks
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.herpzilla.com

The Historical Society site is great, I agree: my mother was from NE OH (Carroll Co.) and I have been doing a little genealogical research into her family's background. The Historical Society has been a good resource for that and other kinds of information. I'm probably going to join and go on a little road trip to Columbus one of these days.

Since you're in Ohio, here's something else you should know about if you don't already:
Link

HerpZilla

I have challenged you to find a field guide that states box turles live in the northeastern part of the state. You have failed to do so. Field guides are written by professional herpetolgists and are peer-reviewed and updated for accuracy. There are several field guides that indicate box turtles do not live in the northeastern part of the state: "Reptiles of Ohio," by Roger Conant, "Field Guide to Reptiles and Amphibians of the Eastern and Central North America" by Conant and Joseph T. Collins, "North American Box Turtles: A Natural History" by Kenneth Dodd, "Amphibians and Reptiles of the Great Lakes Region" by James Harding, as well as the Audubon Field Guide.

Most of these books have been written by professional herpetologists and the "Eastern and Central" field guide has been updated four times to stay current with changes.

Was the Ohio historical website written by a professional herpetologist?

How about the CVNRA's site?

The answer to both those questions is "no."

You have been unable to find a published field guide that states box turtles live in northeast Ohio - although there are several field guides that state they do not.

As far as you finding box turtle(s), I get calls from Cleveland-area Humane Societies about loose iguanas several times a year. Perhaps, according to you theory, iguanas are native to northeast Ohio? Be sure to check out the "wild caught" ball python found in Virgina the other day in the BP forum - perhaps, according to your "scientific" research, ball pythons are native to the United States?

For someone who's never bothered to pick up a field guide and who believes Timber Rattlesnakes live in wilds of Astubula, I recommend that you choose qualified references to back up your theories - otherwise you risk looking like you don't know what you're talking about.

You have much to learn, grasshopper - now go read a book.

Mr. Spuckler

Dear Mr. Spuckler:

As I have stated to you, I have just begun my research. You emailed said a lot more than field guides as a ruling of box turtles in NE Ohio.

But please define "professional herpetologists". As far as I, a pee on in the herp world, knows, there is no herpetology degree offered in the US. And "professional herpetologists" could then be used to describe people without degrees that make money off herps, or in a herp field. I personally know an professional herpetologist and it says so on his checks, so it must be true.

I am trying to gather CREDIBLE evidence to support my view that small pockets of eastern box turtles exist in either Cuyahoga, Lake and Ashtabula. You in fact suggested the ODNR, then when they supported my side, you said you would not expect their opinion.

I have time Tim. Sit tight and relax as I will prove something that is unrealistic. Wake up and smell the styro.
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.herpzilla.com

It has been my experience that field guides tend to be incomplete and/or inaccurate due in part to the limitations imposed by the publisher, a but also because they are not updated as frequently as one might hope. Using a field guide as the final word on ANYTHING is about as useful as citing Cliff Notes as a source. There is more accurate information to be had out there.

As an example, my Audubon Field Guide for birds shows a range map for the red breasted nuthatch that does not include my state, and yet these birds visit my urban feeder on occasion. Cornell University's Ornithology lab confirms that these birds do winter further south than maps indicate.

Or how about the population of Blandings turtles recently found in NY, 100 miles from any other known populations? That isn't included in even more comprehensive texts yet, let alone field guides.

As for the Historical Society website, well, the texts that I found were records of early archeological findings at digs throughout the state. These texts were no doubt cited by other scholars later on.

Ken Dodd's book, North American Box Turtles, show's that box turtle's distribution extends up to the Erie and Crawford Co area of Pennsylvania, straddling the border into Ohio in the vicinity of Ashtabula and Trumbull Co's. I think that it is very telling that the distribution maps so closely coincide with state lines instead of natural geographic features. Why the Oh/PA Border instead of the Ohio River?
When was the last time a comprehensive herp survey was done in NE Ohio? What was the methodology? If noone has really looked for them (or found them) does that mean they don't exist?

Maybe, instead of arguing over this any further, you should consider doing a more thorough survey and come up with some relevant data to report. That would be MUCH more productive.

It's not really an argument. I know Tim, and he's a great guy. We just happen to differ on this point. And I needed help. And you have been very helpful.

I wish I could do field studies. But my back will not withstand the walking. I have started to drive my area, just for fun. I'm not into birds, but I ID'd a bird some years back as a red breasted something? He would it on the edge of some plywood and look right in my bedroom window. Large bird, black winged white breasted except for a red heart shape on it.

Doing some research would be fun, I have been asked by a local guy I know to watch birds. Again my back is not good. I'm up for a new proceedure and if that helps maybe I can do something like that.

Again, you have been a great help with supplying information. And Tim is a friend of mine. At least I consider him a friend. lol We'll see what happens when there is to much proof of box turtles in NE Ohio.
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.herpzilla.com

"Maybe, instead of arguing over this any further, you should consider doing a more thorough survey and come up with some relevant data to report. That would be MUCH more productive."

That comment was intended for either or both of you. Take notes and photos, collect data and expand on the existing knowledge base.

>>"Maybe, instead of arguing over this any further, you should consider doing a more thorough survey and come up with some relevant data to report. That would be MUCH more productive."
>>
>>That comment was intended for either or both of you. Take notes and photos, collect data and expand on the existing knowledge base.

Well, this just started maybe a week ago. And actually I have learned a lot.
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.herpzilla.com

Next time you see a turtle on your property, take a photograph of it and make a note of when and where you saw it. Then you'll have a reference if you see a turtle again. You can compare it to the photgraph, and, if its not the same turtle, take a new picture and more notes.
At the very least you'll be able to determine whether or not it's the same turtle.
That's what I'd do; it doesn't take much to start a little turtle journal.

Here's a scan of the map from North American Box Turtles that I was referencing.