Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Since 1999, every three years or so, on the old "Crotalidae Forum", I use to post the following inquiry:

"I know we've "plowed this ground before, but while perusing my back issues of Reptile & Amphibian Magazine, I came across an interesting, yet controversial article titled "Big Reptiles, Big Lies". The article was in issue #51, and was written by the out-spoken adventurer, famed inventor, and renowned reptile collector, Arthur Jones. As the title implies, Jones discredits a host of claims concerning the maximum size of several notable species, including the EDB. According to Jones, despite the accepted belief of many "armchair" experts, and innumerable accounts by all sorts of people, no one has ever documented a live (or dead) EDB that was even close to being 8 feet long. In fact, the largest EDB out of tens of thousands collected by Jones and other notables over the years, including Ross Allen, failed to measure a full 7 feet in length. According to Jones, claims of 8 foot and longer EDB's are exaggerations, fabrications, or are based upon stretched skins.

Although I'm not quite as convinced as Jones is about the subject, I suspect that he may be correct. Over the past 40 years, I have probably seen several thousand EDB's myself at various zoos, roadside exhibits, rattlesnake round-ups, and in the wild. And, although I'm not proud of it, in my younger days I collected a number of them for the trade. The vast majority of specimens that I ever encountered, captive or otherwise, were between 3 1/2 and 4 1/2 feet long. Probably fewer than a dozen were over 5 1/2 feet long. And, the longest that I ever personally measured was a fresh road-kill near Okeechobee, Florida in 1968 that was 6 feet, 3 inches long, including the rattle. This immense, impressive, and terrifying-even-while-dead specimen was, by far, the largest EDB I've ever seen, anywhere, at anytime. I'd be interested in hearing everyone's perspective on this issue, and I would certainly like to know it there are any verifiable records out there of a 8 foot or longer EDB. By the way, Jones says the WDB is the larger of the two species, and claims to have measured one that was 7 feet 8 1/4 inches long."

Rather than re-generate a bunch of new versions of all of the same responses since 1999 on this issue, perhaps someone smarter than I am can "paste" the entire thread to this new forum. That way, new responders will have the benefit of all the "history" on this issue. The link is:

http://forum.kingsnake.com/crotalid/messages/9843.html

If that doesn't work, you'll find the entire dialog located under "Herp Resourse Links" on Kingsnake's Home Page. Scroll-down to "Old Forum Archives", then scroll-down to "Crotalidae Forum", then search for "Byron". I'd like to know if anyone has any new information to add to my original, 1999 post?

Thanks,
Byron
Link

I read some of the thread you linked, but stopped when it started to degrade.

I would just like to bring up a thought. Does anyone know of any fundamental reason why a snake could not suffer a growth related defect like acromegaly. If so, then we can all argue 'till we're blue in the face about average sizes, observed maximums, population sizes and standard deviations...all of which would be completely irrelivant. The only absolute limiting factor would be how large the snake could grow and still physically function.

For perspective, the tallest reliably measured human was a full 50% taller than the average adult...and was still growing when he died in his early 20's from an infection that started with a poorly fitted shoe...not a common problem for snakes.

On the other hand, the person who swore to me a few months ago that he had seen an 11 foot EDB in the Everglades was clearly bonkers.

Maybe I'm missing something, but wouldn't bare skin show between scales if a skin was stretched? I'm thinking along the lines of a snake that has eaten a too-large meal. If a 6 foot skin was stretched to make it 8 feet, wouldn't that be enough stretching to cause the same thing?
And with the question of big, dead snakes, how hard qould it be to unnoticeably make a big snake a foot bigger on a taxidermy form? I could see getting creative with 2 or 3 skins, but I have seen "stretched" fish mounts and they were obvious in one way or another.
Just curious if anyone knows more about this idea than me, don't feel like killing a snake to try it.

I was no professional snake collector, but a real weekend warrior. I caught an EDR that was sunning on the road that looked eight foot easy. I always say it looked like a landscape timber because that is exactly what it looked like. I sold it to the Serpentarium and the great Bill Haast himself grabbed it, stretched it out and measured it against a tape measure. It was 5’ 10” without the fourteen segment rattle (that was broke off at the end). So not eight foot but still a whopper. I do believe that in it’s most relaxed sunbathing state, it truly was a whole lot longer than when scrunched up all tense, grabbed by the neck and forceably held down to the tape. I’m telling the whole story, and with that, I’m telling you that thing was eight feet long!!!

Back in the 70's I used to hang with an animal trader/trapper/seller and he was known to be rather "cheap with a buck" so to speak. That said, he had a standing offer to pay $1000. for a live EDB that measured 7' or better. He always told me he had a guy that'd buy it for twice that, but I dunno.
Anyway,the closest I ever saw was still a few inches short of 7' (he generally paid $1.50 a foot)and netted the guy about $10.
My best was just over 6'.
As far as I know, he never paid that thousand bucks for an edb.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

I have said for years that the closer a diamonback gets to a sober tape measure, the smaller it gets. Upscale..did I understand you to say that despite Haast's measuring of just short of six feet that the snake was really eight? I can see where a measurement like that would be slightly inaccurate, but to be off by 30% is hard to fathom.

~~Greg~~

I was just trying to explain that the same snake looked and WAS a whole lot bigger when it was naturally stretching itself out as a wild bold confident animal, than when being wrangled along a tape measure. It certainly WAS 5’ 10” when measured and looked quite a lot shorter too, than when sunning itself. I remember being very disappointed it was not a lot bigger when measured. I know they sure hate being handled more than any other snake I’ve ever worked with when field collected. They tense up- and get a lot shorter!
I have also road cruised upon a six foot indigo (bigger than 5’ 10”) that looked like a six foot snake. The diamondback looked like a landscape timber! That fat and that long. Way bigger and longer than the six foot indigo. Just my perspective on this. I can somewhat relate, because of this experience, to the idea that maybe these snakes ARE bigger than when actually measured. Maybe not 30% bigger, as you noted, but staring at that thing on the road was hard to fathom too! I’m a snake guy and not easily impressed. That sucker was big!

Gotcha! I agree that EDB's look a lot bigger than other snakes. I have seen a few over six feet, & one or two that were over six and a half. Extremely impressive animals. No matter how many you have caught, chances are seeing one that big in the wild will raise the hair on the back of your neck.

For those who have not kept them, they will grow to four feet in a relatively short period, at which point growth usually slows. In the time it takes to reach five feet, their weight will double.

~~Greg~~

What impresses me is the overall girth and weight associated with a big edb. A friend keeps them and his largest, over 6' er must weigh 15 lbs.! (my guess/exagerration)
I found one over 5' early this year that was in very poor condition weight-wise and it made me feel terible to see a thin edb.

:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

I am not permitted to keep venomous (Florida) so it might be weird that I post here sometimes but I use to have the permit and was a keeper of many EDR and moccasins. If I had to only choose one snake to maintain it would probably be the one we are talking about here. I have had the privilege of spending hours observing them in the wild, including a “family” of them at their gopher tortoise burrow. They are very intelligent, wary creatures. I think very misunderstood and underappreciated. The groundskeepers at the golf course where they were so common used to run over them all the time with golf carts. There was one real big one they used to try to “skid” on to twist it and kill it because they had run over it so many times and they knew that would not kill it. I tried to talk to them about conservation and how someday they would all be extinct, which they are in the area I’m talking about. (Palm Aire development in Pompano if you know the area) I think I might have actually got to them and they came to regard the big old tough one with some respect that bordered on affection. I was always fascinated how they could lay flat like totally deflated pathetic creature but puff up like Clark Kent to Superman. I am glad to see them being produced in captivity but this is a snake that seems like shouldn’t be in a cage to me. I hope keepers can get them some time outdoors and natural sunlight. Between the cool ground and burrows they thermoregulate constantly and spend a lot of time in fairly cool temperatures. But they like their sunshine too. The thread inspired my fond recollections of these great beasts I have known. Too bad if you have not had the privilege, they are really pretty cool snakes! Sorry if I’ve bored you with my personal 2 cents.

Not bored at all! My favorite sighting is still a nice edb. Especially the high contrast ones most often found near the coasts. I'm not a big fan of the yellow/browns like you might see in the panhandle and in GA sometimes, but like I said, ANY sighting is great these days. And getting pics is like a big dollop of ice cream right on top!
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

I actually started a thread on this forum probably 5 years ago on Thanksgiving day about this very thing based on the same article myself. I scanned and posted the picture of guy holding the huge western diamond back featured in that article. Big Reptiles, Big Lies is an interesting article and Arthur Jones was certainly an interesting guy who really knew what it meant to go big.

In the December 2000 issue of Reptiles magazine there's a picture of Louie Porras holding a "7 1/2 ft / 27 lb. " eastern . Knowing Louie and looking at the pic. I'll flat out say, no way. Big but not that big.

Personally I have never seen a true 7ft. eastern but I have heard a million story's, seen some huge animals and seen some fairly convincing pictures but as we all know pictures can lie and as for the stories' We all the know the one " I saw one crossing the road one time that went all the way from side to the other . " .

I don't doubt that's possible for eastern to hit the 7ft mark but I think 8 is out of the question. Like with all giant snakes it's amazing how difficult it is to actually verify claims . Bob Harding has a few big ones that he collected as adults maybe 15 yrs ago and has been feeding ever since .I would guess the largest to be around 6 ft. A massive D-back that could probably pass for a 7 footer . Ernie Eison
westwoodreptiles.com

years ago when I was a lad growing up along the "Trail" there used to be a small bar somewhere before the 40 mile bend going to Naples that had a huge EDB mount. I believe the year was 1972 or so...

Someone had gone to great lengths to preserve this snake and I wonder what ever became of it? It was massive, I believe it was in the neighborhood of 7'-8'.

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Cheers
Lateralis
"I would rather be precisely wrong than approximately right"
Marion "Doc" Ford

...the picture of the guy holding the big rattlesnake in the article? I no longer have it but I remember that the snake was not a giant atrox as it was credited to be. It was in fact, a basiliscus. I really looked that picture over and I saw no "coon-tail" and seem to remember that it was pretty obvious that it was C. basiliscus. *In captivity* the Mexican West Coast Rattlesnake is hands-down the largest rattlesnake. In the wild is a different matter.

If my memory is correct about the identity of the snake in the photo, then it throws a shadow of doubt over the whole atrox being bigger opinion Jones was trying to profess in his article. Eastern Diamondbacks average overall much, not a little, but much larger than Western Diamondbacks. Atrox has a tremendous range over that of the Eastern and big ones are going to pop up. But on any given day in the sandhills of southern Georgia, the adult Eastern you scare up will be bigger and heavier than 1000 atrox. Just look at the snakes in the round-ups.

Sincerely,

Terry Vandeventer