Reptile & Amphibian Forums

as it applies to Thayeri. I thought I understood but, a couple of the “retro” pictures everyone posted below look like “designer” (line bred) Thayeri to me. As I said before, the things ya’ll seem appreciate in the “retro” thayeri are the same things most of us appreciate in the “line bred” thayeri. So, I stand by my earlier statement, I don’t get it. It can’t just be brighter color in line bred because a couple of those Retro pics have bright color.
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Rick
Never Enough
Reptiles

Rick I think you hit on something there. "Retro" is a coined term for Vivid’s out crossed line that seems to have stuck. Tim I believe calls them his earth toned line. All in all the basic idea is that they have more of a wild type look to them but that they branched from highly line bred stock is quite evident. To me the allure is that there is more diversity. The diversity might be subtle compared to the out right color saturation of more line bred types but some appreciate the more subdued hues and underplayed speckling in the ground pattern. I really just think of them as classic captive-bred thayeri. They're “cleaner” than wild stock, quite variable and capable of producing many many UNIQUE specimens.

Couldn't have said it better Tony. Who doesn't love more genetic diversity. lol. Here is a retro Vivid female I have. Sorry for the fuzzy pic.
Ken

>>Rick I think you hit on something there. "Retro" is a coined term for Vivid’s out crossed line that seems to have stuck. Tim I believe calls them his earth toned line.

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Okay, the above statement is pretty much what I thought. When I was into them years ago (years) they were “buckskin”, gray, or an off white (or black too). Leons with varying degrees of hollow centers to their bands, MSP with varying bandwidth, and Intermediates were fairly common. What there was not, was pinstriped, no black, or hollow centers with black outlining (at least not openly available), those are “line-bred” designer traits (IMHO).
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All in all the basic idea is that they have more of a wild type look to them but that they branched from highly line bred stock is quite evident.

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Here is an F2 female from a wild caught female (from Mike Bodner), that’s just about as close to “Wild” as you get but I do not consider her “Retro”? The only thing “retro is her attitude (lol).
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To me the allure is that there is more diversity. The diversity might be subtle compared to the out right color saturation of more line bred types but some appreciate the more subdued hues and underplayed speckling in the ground pattern. I really just think of them as classic captive-bred thayeri. They're “cleaner” than wild stock, quite variable and capable of producing many many UNIQUE specimens.
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Again IMHO, I get more “diversity” from my Line bred thayeri than you can shake a stick at. Thin bands, wide bands, hollow centers, aberrant bands, dark bands, light bands, no head pattern, small head patterns, crazy cool head patterns, florescent orange, yellow, white, green, off white, gray. Ones that look more “classic”; ones that look fake.

Don’t get me wrong, I do appreciate all the pattern and color variances, it is what makes Thayeri so awesome. I’m just having trouble getting around the whole retro-classic thang. A couple that were posted look like nice orange “line-bred” thayeri to me, not what I consider classic captive bred Thayeri.

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Rick
Never Enough
Reptiles

Hope you haven’t gotten the wrong impression, I am not “bustin’ on you” (or anyone else). That thayeri of yours is awesome. I especially like the hollow centers of the saddles that are edged in black; black edging “inside” the saddles, go figure.

All I’m saying is something that nice wasn’t around 20 or even 10 years ago. I am sure it existed and was traded amongst a few “insiders” but you sure did not see that on a breeders table at a show.

I’ll buy Earthtone Thayeri, but “retro” or “classic”? Something that nice is probably just as line bred as the bright orange ones. That is really a nice looking Thayeri!

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Rick
Never Enough
Reptiles

Rick, no one is slamming line bred thayeri. I think everyone here says they appreciate them. The so called retro snakes from Vivid are the result of a line bred sire outcrossed to a wild dam. So, yeah, they have some line bred qualities to them.
Some of the qualities of line bred animals you point out in Tony D's pic are evident in this illustration of the first leonis collected in 1893. When people talk of the "retro" look I think they are referring to animals that have a more natural color scheme, instead of the intense oranges and yellows we sometimes see.

Greg

Greg,
Obviously I missed communicated; I never thought anyone was slamming line bred Thayeri. The thought never even occurred to me. I was really just playing “devils advocate” to generate discussion. I hoped to simply provide food for thought. We start using terms for things that have definition to us personally, but are really fairly subjective to the group as a whole. I really like Tony D's Thayeri.

Just about any Thayeri in captive breeding colonies will have some of the features of the original specimens. You could take the most florescent colored Leonis around and it will still have many of the features that are touted in the “retro” specimens. Likewise, the difference between a “retro” Thayeri and a high colored one is not that different either. Once you get past the initial “look” of an individual animal and look at the specific features that make it look the way it does, you will find far more similarities than differences. People also tend to forget that some of those “wild” caught (dead collected specimens) were/are quite colorful too, especially the MSP.

So no, I have not been upset at all; I produce babies that fall into what I consider a “retro” look too. I only hope I did not offend anyone because I never intended too. The subtle variations that create such dramatically different appearances are why I think Thayeri are so addicting. Viva’ La Thayeri!
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Rick
Never Enough
Reptiles

You didn't offend Rick. The point of what to call them, in this case, is a bit moot to me so I just didn’t more fully engage.

I love 'em all too!

There is definitely a problem with the terms we use. "Line bred" make one think of "in-bred" which is not necessarily true. Selectively bred may be a better term.
"Retro" makes one think that this snake looks just like a wild caught snake and that is not necessarily true.
There are definitely "line bred" snakes that look "retro", and as you pointed out, there are wild caught snakes that look like "line bred".
So I agree. All these names are confusing. I like the purty ones! Whether that be flaming orange or earth tones.

Greg

Thanks for posting the illustration, it's gorgeous!
-Phil