Reptile & Amphibian Forums

A few weeks back I posted a pic of what I think is a very nice female. The pic ended up on another forum and was received in a very negative way. I really wasn't ready to post her pic but I did. I really expected to be able to answer all the questions when her clutch hatched out. I knew nothing of her lineage because I did not produce her nor did I acquire her as a hatchling. I had to guess what she was based on pictures, comments from other breeders, etc. I thought she was bloodred and hypo with hurricane motley dorsal pattern. I bred her to a hypo and expected hypo hatchlings, some like mom and some like dad. Also, I was hopeful that some hatchlings would have her dorsal pattern. If she was all that, it was B grade as she lacked all of the requirements as you'll see in the pic. As I stated in the previous post, I'll post more pics and not misrepresent the stock. I have shared the pics with a very well known, reputable, and respected breeder. According to that breeder, she is not a bloodred and should not be considered motley because she lacks the belly pattern.
Here's her pics.
Note the intensity of red near my hand and the near solid belly.

Her upper belly looks more like a hypo, not a bloodred nor motley.

He's a hypo and since I believe she is a hypo I expected hypo hatchlings. I have been told that since bloodred is not a recessive gene, it's incorrect to say het for bloodred. So I expected hypos that looked like him and some that looked like her.

Here's a belly shot of him.

Here's a shot of his side, no pattern.

Here's the hatchlings just coming out of their eggs.

Here's the group after their first shed.

Here's a couple of hatchlings.
Dorsal of #5

Belly shot of #5

Dorsal of #3

Belly shot of #3

Thanks for looking, comments welcome.
John Q

I don't know much about this stuff, but - the babies don't look like bloodred babies as I've learned them to look (gray heads, smudgy sides) though their bellies seem to betray bloodred in their lineage? Not absolutely sure on bellies, I've only got a heavily checkered anery :-P

What I *really* wanted to say though, is the mother is beautiful. I don't post often just to say that - but she's got beautiful rich, clear color, & I think she's gorgeous, like stained glass. I bet Marcel will post to say so too, she is RED The male was a good match for her, too. How many babies are you going to hang on to? Only thing that drives me crazy about this time of year, is seeing all the new babies & wanting to know how they're going to look grown up. It looks like some of those guys have a lot of red that wants to come into their backgrounds, but it's so hard to tell. Please keep us posted on them!
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~kimhotep

>> I bet Marcel will post to say so too, she is RED

That snake is dead sexy (in accent of Fat Bastard from Austin Powers
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Marcel Poots (Holland)
'Where is your crown King Nothing?' James Hettfield

Well, I think that your female looks like she is het bloodred. It depends on who you talk to, but I consider "bloodred" to be a recessive morph that sometimes shows it's affects in the hets (would this be considered co-domintant?).

Anyway, all the babies look normal, but some of them have markings of bloodred influence (the bellies that are kind of washed out).

So, let's see. If she really is het bloodred and he is hypo, then the babies are all normal. They are also all het hypo and possible het bloodred.
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alstiver@hotmail.com

1.0 '01 Hypo snow cornsnake (Tesla)
0.1 '02 Ghost (pastel) cornsnake (Banshee)
1.1 '02 Bloodred cornsnakes (Desi and Luci Too)
0.0.3 Goldfish (Kabuki, Isamu, and Yuki)
1.0 American Eskimo mutt (Rusty)

John:

Let me first say that I respect your integrity. It takes guts for anyone to publically say they might have been wrong. From looking at the dorsum of that snake, it's very easy to see why you called it motley. While looking at the color blending (more typical of motley than bloodred), I can also understand that misidentification. The belly says NO to both of those so I agree that it's neither bloodred nor motley.

I take exception to the idea that bloodreds are not recessively inherited. I disagree with whomever said that, but I'm open to debate via personal email. Not on the forum. While it might not be simple recessive, I sell my F-1s as heterozygous. I agree that the jury is still out on exactly what that gene or combination of genes should be genetically labeled, I'm convinced it's a form of recessive trait or linked traits.

Regarding your new snakes. Until one more generation, I think those babies are just 'beautiful corns'. Breeding two of those babies together is the only way you're going to find out if you have something other than very colorful corns. Their exaggerated colors indicate that either recessively or dominantly they have something going on there. Something that will be desirable in our market.

I've seen a tendency lately for folks to have to put a name on every single snake they produce that's slightly different. I'm not singling you out here, John and I still have a ton of respect for you over this thread. Not every snake out there has to be something different. If collectively everyone out there could have seen all the corns I've seen over the years, you'd realize there are many, many different looks within every morph. Not every new look is something you can reproduce nor will many of those possess marketable, recessive traits. Sometimes, they're just different. What did Freud say? "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." Sorry if I misquoted him.

In conclusion: I think those babies are killer looking and I'd certainly ask more for them if I was selling them. The parents are just different enough to say the babies should mature to be at least as nice as they are. I think you did the right thing showing us some of the babies AND both parents. I would love to get a few of those babies from you. Maybe we could do some trading.

Don
www.cornsnake.NET
South Mountain Reptiles

and those babies are extremely beautiful John, as are the parents!
Good luck with them!
Nicole
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Nicole Gustafson
Coal's Constrictors (formerly Coal's Cold-Blooded Creations - changed to simplify and there is another 'Cold Blooded Creations'...I'm not trying to hide from anyone or anything!
Cook Minnesota

BOAS:
Gavin, Lydia, Hailee, and Jade ~ Dumeril's
Wyatt, Sheena, Shaylee, and Mary Jane ~ Columbian
Desdemona ~ Peruvian
Madeline ~ Surinam
Avery ~ Bolivian

CORNS:
Kiana and Sierra ~ Amel
Casper and Kissa ~ Anery
Tripp and Scarlet ~ Bloodred
Aidan ~ Ghost
Skylar ~ Anery Hurricane
Ariel ~ Striped Amel
Lily ~ Blizzard
Ambur ~ Creamsicle
Neva ~ Snow
Sage ~ Normal

BEARDED DRAGONS:
Divine ~ Silver Pastel
Christopher ~ Sandfire Red x Sandfire Yellow
Baby ~ Snow

CAT:
Morgan ~ Calico Tabby

DOGS:
Maximillion Vasco von Katzel and Len-Mar-'s Lexed Leas ~ AKC German Shepherds

HORSES:
Mateo ~ Palomino Paint Quarter Gelding
Chic ~ 3/4 Quarter 1/4 Arabian Bay Mare
Rayna ~ 7/8 Quarter 1/8 Arabian Palomino Filly
Dallas ~ Palomino Quarter Gelding
Banner ~ Red Dun Quarter Mare
Chance ~ Buckskin Dun Quarter Stud Colt

Congrats on the hatching John,

I think this is a very interesting breeding. I was positive that the female was a Bloodred when you showed pictures before. But now that you have shown the belly I am positive she is an outcrossed Bloodred. Here is a pic of the belly of my outcross Bloodred. I do think outcross Bloodred is the same as being het for Bloodred. I am planning on making Motley Bloodred hets next season.

Looking at the hatchlings I must say the color resembles a lot of hypo. Normal hatchlings are mostly darker. These have a very red glow to them. Excellent. If I where you I would keep all of them and breed the siblings.

Marcel

>>Here's the hatchlings just coming out of their eggs.

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Marcel Poots (Holland)
'Where is your crown King Nothing?' James Hettfield

just an idea: could they be Volcano corns?

Volcano Corn History

the pattern seems to ressemble that of a Volcano corn somewhat... what does everybody else think?

Bristen.

I am like Marcel, very partial to RED, and yours are a beautiful RED!!!!!
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SpardaWolf
1.0 okeetee-Sparda
1.0 pastel motley-Peeper
0.1 anerythristic-Piper
1.0 amel-Stripe
1.0 ball python-Cobra

Well, it certainly would have made things easier if the hatchlings would have displayed some trait that would have positively identified their mom. For now I'm just going to refer to them as the unknown corns. Now that I have posted the pics of the breeders I hope everyone can see why I thought the female was bloodred, motley, and hypo. Special thanks to Don for his post, honest opinion, and pointing out what I consider one of my most valuable assets, my integrity. When the previous post got heated a few weeks back I said I would post more pics when the eggs hatched, not before, and no more questions. I also stated that I would not knowingly misrepresent any snake. I hope my posting of these pics satisfies everyone.
I didn't get exactly what I was expecting but from the positive comments in this forum and emails, I think luck was on my side. I've ended up with a new project that is definitely worth seeing through. I'm keeping half the clutch, at least.
Thanks again
John Q