Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have a question on the whole tub thing. I have a pair of savs that are in a 75 gal aquarium right now that I want to move in to something larger. I am going to go with a cattle trough.
Here are my questions for you guys as you seem to be the housing experts here.
What is a good size to get?
What is the best way to heat it? they will be in my garage (converted into the snake room, I'm wondering about the floor though, should I pad and carpet? maybe reflectix under the tub?? it's bare concreate now..)
Do you cover the tops or leave them open?

Thanks in advance for your help... and remember, no arguing..it scares the kids!
--Blue

I think Frank and I misunderstood each other. A trough, FRP coated wood, cement, or some other thing is a great type of enclosure. My comment about wood enclosures looking nice was taken wrong. My enclosures are 7 feet tall and in my house so they are built out of wood. Cleaning and maintenance is easy with a walk in enclosure. Plus it gives the monitors climbing room. FRP protects the wood where the dirt is, or at least soon will in one of my enclosures. All of the wood is protected with many coats of polyurethane. I think polyurethane looks better than FRP, but it takes a month or longer to off gas.

Ideally I would like 8X8X8 ft cement and cinderblock enclosures, but I can't do that in my spare bedroom. A trough holding dirt with FRP coated plywood on top could make a nice tall enclosure, but the trough would not go into the spare bedroom either. The last enclosure I build for a new small monitor is a cement mixing trough with a wooden box built on top. It is ugly, but I will throw the enclosure away as soon as the monitor is acclimated enough to go into the room with my other reptiles.

I am far from an expert so I will just advise having a solid enclosure and top with a vent or two in the enclosure if need be.

Look at the wood here. You can see it is wet and will rot even with polyurethane coating. This is why you need a trough, FRP, or something else to protect the wood.

Here are some picture of the enclosure when it was being constructed. The last picture shows a burrow in the dirt.

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Ed

I do not think I took you wrong Ed, I just disaggree, that was the point of the discussion.

Again apples to apples. If you and I do the same quality work, then we can compare. You see, when building a wooden cage and I do not care what kind of waterproofing you use. Its all about how well of a job you did. Kinda the same thing applies when keeping monitors, its not the method but more accurately how well the methods applied.

So lets say, we did the same quality job, for comparisons sake.

Wooden cages with FRP panels installed eventually have problems. They need maintenance, like resealing the corners. If you going to keep monitors in them for a period of time, more then a couple years, then resealing is necessary. ALso the panels can seperate from the wood.

Polymer coatings, without reinforcing will fail much quicker and as you mention let off gases. Rapidly at first and then slowing for long periods of time. You could fiberglass the insider(reinforces polymer) but that is very expensive and takes lots of knowhow.

Both the above methods are VERY expensive and require a certain(high) level of expertise. This level of expertise will dictate how much work(maintenance) and how often it will be needed. So, expensive and in need of maintenance.

Troughs made out of plastic or metal, last a very very long time. I have metal troughts that have been in service since 1991. In service means monitors have been living and breeding in them, for that entire time with no time off. These troughs are still in great shape. I figured when i got them, that I would have to recoat the bottons after a period of time. I am sure I will, but maybe not for another decade or so.

Now for an important point. Troughs are cheap and do not depend on the keepers workmenship. The troughs are used for the part that destroys wooden cages. That is, they hold the deep substrate.

The deep substrate, not only holds moisture which destroys wooden cages, coated or not. But it also holds the weight of the substrate, which can amount to many hundreds of pounds. This weight is what destroys FRP paneled and Polymer coated wooden cages.

So my opinion is, its far easier and better for newbies or experienced keepers to base a cage of troughs. You can always build up from there. For instance if you want to build an aboreal cage(hahahahaha I laugh at that, but thats another story) You can buy a trough, buy a slider window, pop rivet it to the top of the trough, buy some plastic, like Lexan/acrylic/FRP and pop rivet it to the trough and window. Wrap it around and pop rivet a seam or two in the back, put on a top and bingo bango, you have a nice tall cage that only takes a couple tools and very little work. If you use a 4x8 piece, you have a wonderfull six foot tall aboreal cage, thats nice looking, and works GREAT. To top it off, its cheaper then a wooden cage, lasts longer, works better, quicker to build, uses less tools, takes less expertise.

Yea, after all these years and all kinds of cages, thats what I would do. You see, I get the feeling this is the kind of information that experience is suppose to offer.

THE REAL PROBLEM. the real problem is, most of you, have wishes and dreams. You wish this or that will work, you dream of doing this or that. So, you hope what you wish or dream will work. The problem is, you then recomend your wishes and dreams without actually doing them. This goes for cages and for methods of keeping monitors and lastly academics information. The hard reality is, this stuff is based on wishes, not longterm results.

Like the discussion below. Many keepers, wish and dream, that breeding monitors is not a indication of minimum good health. The reason is, they do not understand how its done. So of course they do not want to have that level of keeping be considered normal.

That makes them feel below normal and that bothers them. This type of thinking really bothers me. As we all are below normal, when it comes to keeping monitors. Come on fellas, just look around you, 90% failure rate, the most common question is HELP my monitor is sick/dying/not eating, etc. So if you start out thinking your not very good at this, and you have a lot to learn, then it should not bother you to feel, below normal. I know thats what I do, I do not ever claim to know this and that, in fact, the monitor experts(?) are quick to point out how dumb I am about monitors. I argee with them. But, as you know, I have a million times more and better results and on a continuing basis. Then those experts. Over many many generations of many species, and both in captivity and in the field. But yes, I do not claim to know anything. I only allow and report results.

So I report to you the results and that normally makes me the bad guy(shoot the messager type of thing) So you all must understand, Its not about me, its about you.

Back to this subject Ed, if you recomend a method thats hard for most keepers, they are going to fail before they even finish the cage. Which in reality could be good, if you cannot make a decent cage, maybe you should not have monitors. The other more real, reality is, they will simply put the monitor is a fish tank or snake type cage or other substandrad cage Cheers

Hi Frank,
I have a couple questions about your trough setup if you don't mind. I want to build one with FRP as I am very comfortable cutting it as opposed to acrylic which seems to get messy (as in broken/cracked.) What would you use for a top? I can't think of anything that would be easy to attatch. I want to use it for my peachies and black trees so I am going to have lots of wood in there. Is frp going to be rigid enough to suport the wieght of branches and if not what do you think could be done to brace it. Sorry for the barrage here, I just figure if you don't mind you could save me the trouble of going back and redoing things more times than I need too since you have most of the bugs worked out of monitor caging.

Thanks,
Steve

I get the feeling thats what these places are for. hahahahahahaha

I do not think FRP is good for that application. it sags and stretches. You would need lots of bracing. Polycarbonate is good because its ridged.

I would recomend learning to cut plexi&polycarb. Its all about the right tool. Blades with teeth, small and lots of tips. I also use metal blades(no teeth to catch and crack) I would call a plastics place and ask what blades they recomend. Then you do not have to use something not so good.

If you call a plastics place, they have more then Plexi or FRP, then have tons of different boards, like PVC and foam boards that are hard and sturdy and easy to work.

Latey I have seen cage companies using types plastics. Cheers

Thanks Frank, don't know why that didn't occur to me, I know of a good plastics place around here. I will go talk to them and see what we can come up with. I think once I find a good material that will be a great cage. Fast to build and will hold moisture very well. I'll get pics as I go so mabye it will be useful for everyone else too.

Steve

Ed, thanks for the pics! You don't screw around when you say walk in!! I noticed that your ply wood looked wet, will that speed up the rotting process?
Frank, good points. Noted.
The enclosures are going to be for my savs though so I'm not too concered about hight. If I can fit a bigger tub, I may go higher on the sides and make a faux rock section for looks. I like the rivet idea.
As far as keeping the heat in, will the bare floor of my garage draw the heat out in the winter, I live in southern NC but the ground does get cold.
Also, I'm still on the fence about breeding them, they are rescues and I use them for shows mainly.
Have either of you used silicon for a sealant? I figure if it is level with the substrate it should work. I've used it with frogs before and it held water. Would the savs claw it up even if it is below the substrate?
Thanks, Blue

I live just outside of Raleigh, NC myself. The wood will rot where the moist dirt touches it. The enclosure keeps a high humidity so the entire enclosure will eventually rot. Like Frank said, an enclosure of this type will not last as long as a trough, and is more work.

I do use silicone in every corner, widow edge, etc. Give it plenty of time to off gas and cure if you use it. I have never had a problem with a monitor harming the bead of silicone. I guess it would depend on how well you lay the silicone.

I would elevate the bottom since the cement will get cold and the cold will past through to the substrate. Frank will know more about that.

One question though, what do you mean you are on the fence about breeding them? If they are a pair, are kept together, and are healthy, they will breed. All you have to do is incubate the eggs. Sounds easy doesn't it, HAHA.

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Ed

On the silicone thing, I ment can you use it like a truck bed liner, all over the bottom?
I may end up trying to breed them, heck I breed everything else! I had iguanas that laid eggs for me and I didn't even try, I didn't even know their sexes at the time! Figured that one out quick! I'm going to keep them seperate for now, the male is still way too thin for my taste and the girl takes all of his food if they are together, she's a pig but my wife likes her so she gets away with it. Women...
I will build a platform for the trough and put some reflectix under it just to be on the safe side. I might as well put casters on it too while I'm buildin'.
Thanks, Blue

I put casters under one of my Argus cages. Once the dirt was added, it became immovable. Use very large, heavy-duty wheels if you seriously want to be able to roll the cage. Putting the cage up on a sheet of foam board and off the cold cement will help keep the bottom of the cage warmer-just like when camping/sleeping in a tent....you don't want to lay your sleeping bag directly on the ground w/o an air matress or foam pad. It sucks the heat out of you during the night.

Use furniture dollies, you can buy them at home depot for about $20 and screw them into the bottom of the trough. One dolly will work for a 4'x 2' trough filled with dirt.