Reptile & Amphibian Forums

got this pair from dwight good they 2005 modelsthanks for lookin,,,,,,,thomas

Are those pure or are they the product of Califonia Kings bred into Florida's?
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Peter Jolles
East Coast Colubrids
www.eastcoastcolubrids.com

i think its pretty common knowledge that is how the albinos came to be. in not only floridana but most(if not all)getula ssp.albinos are the result of californiae,in the mix. now this pair is from dbl.het. for snow parents, which means they are poss.het. for axanthic as well. see thru line breeding you breed the cali out leaving the (mutant,albino gene) its actually done alot more in the hobby than some people think. do you understand line breeding? its done in nature just on a grand scale and is how the recognized getula ssp. came to be. science has/can split/divide a species but the fact remains getula is getula,see the problem arrises when an obvious cross is represented/marketed as a "pure" ssp. something thats unfortunately done more and more by folks chasing dollars and/or a marketing degrees,,,,,,,,,,,thomas

Thomas, What is "Line Breeding"?

I thought that those Kingsnakes were part California King when I saw that you had them labeled as "Lav." However, since you did not mention California King in the title of your post I had no way of telling. Your post read "Lav. Fla kings" not "Lav. Cali/ Fla Kings" which is probably more appropriate, in my opinion. However - they are not my snakes and I am not selling them so it will not be my advertisement to label.

I do have a question though: You write that the California part of the kingsnake is "bred out" of the mix. How? How do you keep the albino part of the California King but isolate that from the rest? A centrifuge? How many generations ago were the rest of its California genes taken away? Those snakes to me look clearly like they are pure floridana --- but clearly they are not.
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Peter Jolles
East Coast Colubrids
www.eastcoastcolubrids.com

Peter,

The albino lavender brooksi kings have been accepeted into the hobby as pure by 99.99% of the people associated with them. It is a summarization of the original breeders that they did breed calif kings into them. You have people selling "albino brooksi" at shows, magazines ads, internet ect. They are even accepeted as pure into many books. So why should one person who thinks they are crossed advertise them as such? It will only send some people over to those that advertise them as pure. Most people today are either ill informed or just going with the flow. I think that a lot of breeders know but want to stick their head in the sand (hear no eveil speak no evil type of thing) You have to remember the lavender brooksi kings have been around for over ten years and have been accepted as pure by herpetoculturists.

Now my approach is that the back breeding of livestock is done a few times and dna cannot determine that they are hybridized and genetesists anyway. Even though we know that a snake may have 2% calif king it does not disprove the genetic makeup of the snake. Sure it does not change it purity but then again we get into what is pure and what is not. Nature provides hybridization and the wc snakes one finds may be more hybridized than these back bred lav brooks kings that WE KNOW have at least been bred back to a certain founding breeder..

Also other morphs like the hondurans, nelsoni ect ect ect have been created by unscrupulous breeders that had closet hybrid fancy going on while touting the purity of their animals. After back breeding they came out one day with a new morph. That the sad reality of it but it does not bother me in the least because what we end up with is an animal that has had a lot of work put into it rather than someone who just lucks out on breeding w/c or finds one out in the wild. Thats just plain luck. ha ha!

Now before you get your feathers all ruffled remeber that I am a field collector first. I have many years and appreciate the things we find in the wild. There are a lot of breeders in the hobby today that could find a snake if it bit them on the A$$. When I have found certain species i did a crazy dance and screammed at the top of my lungs (one fond memeroy like that especially comes to mind) and I hope their will be others. I also like breeding oocaily pure animals. Its not that I am on the other side of the coin. I just like both sides.

Call me crazy Peter. Thats okay!

I do have a question though: You write that the California part of the kingsnake is "bred out" of the mix. How? How do you keep the albino part of the California King but isolate that from the rest? A centrifuge?,,,,,,,

actually peter it require great patience and a tiny pair of plyers,,,,,,,thomas

just took a pic of the only hold back from Lav CaliFloridas and Ma & Pa

Those lok like 50/50's. That a great example of how they evoloved.

I remeber back 20 years ago when pople in florida were breeding their calif kingsnakes into their backyard kings. It was a natural evolution for breeders to do this. What resulted is that some breeders discovered you could breed back to the florida kings and keep the albino gene alive while retaining the look of a florida king.

It does not take as many backbreedings to make a species bonafied again. I have seen it myself with F1 gens where one out of a clucth would almost resmeble one of the parent species. I believe a lot of the colubrids morphs today are just a result of backbreeding f2's back. Not that much backbreeding considering people are paying premium prices for high end snakes.

5Y/ago @85$,now they are now wholesaled as Lemon Kings =Calx Fl.

Look I don't mean to be a stickler - but you are making a lot of assumptions and you have no idea of the 99.9% number you threw out. You pulled that one out of....

Before I proceed --- I am not trolling you here so do not read this as though I am questioning you or calling you out. I just totally disagree. We are men here - we can disagree and still be friends. But...

You can't tell me that natural "hybridization" between animals that are geograhically close (like between Yellow and Black Rat snakes in NC or Eastern and Florida Kings in FL) is the ethical equivalent of a California x Florida King cross breeding.

It is not. You will never convince me. These animals evolved differently in different climates with different habitats and prey animals, thousands of miles apart, over a million years.

I think some of these snakes are pretty to look at - like your axanthic brooks kings for instance. They are really pretty. However, if it were up to me (and luckily it isn't) - I would euthanize or sterilize all of the hybrids and wacky morphs I could find. Your hybrids are undoing a million years of evolution and are ethically wrong --- any way you slice it.

Think about what happens when one person breeds a 50% king x 50% Honduran Milk back to a pure king and then does it for a few more generations. How do you know what is what any more.

Nature is already under enough pressure on our continent and captive gene pools may be all that is left in who knows how long - 20 years? 30 years? 100 years?

I believe that the hybrid breeders are ruining our captive gene pool and you don't even know you are doing it. Just because you can breed a cali king with a honduran milk doesn't mean you should. Similarly - just because you can breed a "lavender" cali king to a florida king to eventually get "lavender" florida kings doesn't mean you should do that either.

Rainer - again - I am not trying to get on your "enemy list" and you will never be on mine... Just my thoughts...
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Peter Jolles
East Coast Colubrids
www.eastcoastcolubrids.com

Peter, not Rainer here but though you won't be too relieved as I type this one thing that is a fact is first generation Hybrids are often dogs, further generations of Hybrid to Hybrid breeding make the very pretty snakes, and the ones that you can tell are Hybrids from a mile away. This is why I always try to discourage people from starting new projects since they have male King and a female Corn.... that is just lack of funds to buy proper mates for each of them or impatience.
If you checked your own collection with DNA and most were not what you thought they were you'd freeze them? I think not. We're dealing with pets here, we're not scientists. I do want to know exactly what my snakes are but I take them at face value. I like the way they look first and foremost. What purists refuse to believe is many who claim they are purists will go with the flow as far as what's "in" at the time with locales. Or make mistakes with keeping notes and just make assumptions as far as what they think they have after containers with labels get mixed up. For a guy like you, please consider what you can learn from a Hybrid breeder. After all, when in doubt...they are the ones who can tell you if something is not as pure as it looks.
Sadly enough many of us started with pet shop snakes....enuff said there... or in many cases people bought a high dollar male and any old female and began a project. Then suddenly a look is slightly different...and this is why line breeding [inbreeding] can really keep the integrity of snake. I want to line breed Hybrids as much as I do pure snakes. I think the fears of bad things happening are an overblown subject and that for example Okeetee Corns are just Corns unless they've been inbred for mega generations [since no one collects there now].Look at Blue Eyed Blonde Cal Kings.....the habitat was developed. So recently the snake has gained popularity. Again some who have females from who knows where will breed them to a male Blue Eyed Blonde and make hets. That next generation may not look exactly the same...as I can tell you this...they were marketed as having the most vivid yellow on any Kingsnake....I think this is already gone and now people just want the faded Hypo look.
I hope you know what I am trying to say. Just an opinion and I know why you fear what you do. The problem is there does not seem to be many guys pursuing things as seriously as you, and some that do don't make enough effort to encourage others to do the right thing with thier stock...again all the worry over line breeding. Things actually happen to be worse than what you started this reply with and I am furthering it by saying look at some of the posts on here when someone says I have a new Florida King and its a Splendida. The problem is there's always going to be people who will tell someone what they want to hear to get the sale...which is why newbies need mentors. I have been talking to a lot of young aspiring breeders lately. Let's hope some of them realize how important it is to make a solid effort to do the right thing. Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Peter,

The reason for the 99.99% number is I was the one who started saying that the lavender brooks and others are hybrids. So I doubt that many others know about it. If asked at a show people just give me a dumb look and blank stare. LOL! I think that 99.99% is a good number to be pulled out of my arse.

Your comment about it being unethical for certain animals to breed. I feel the same way about some humans. I mean look how you turned out..HA HA HA !...just kidding Peter.

Here is a pic of a gopher X cal king found in northern calif.:

Photo courtesy of J.P.

Hey did you know its unatural for you to be in a snakes enviroment? You are ruining the environment just by being in it.

Just messing with ya Peter. Really!

Now,now Rainer. Do you remember our first conversations at a Daytona show? When we were walking around looking at stuff?? You sure seemed doubtful and surprised when I said that the albino kings had Cal in them....and that I did not believe any were 100% pure..Then you told me you knew of some that were??
I must be the .1% guy, huh?
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

Mark, That's funny. So I guess it depends on the circumstance and the audience?
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Peter Jolles
East Coast Colubrids
www.eastcoastcolubrids.com

Mark, That's funny. So I guess it depends on the circumstance and the audience?

Peter, Thats true but not funny. I should have known better the audience i was explaining it to needs things explained on a 5th grade level.

Sad not funny.

Rainer - please, let's not get personal, ok?

It's best to make your points about the snakes and not to take personal shots at the people making the points about the snakes.

I apologize for setting you off.
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Peter Jolles
East Coast Colubrids
www.eastcoastcolubrids.com

Rainer - you have been especically helpful to me when I have had problems with some of my snakes in the past. Your knowledge of snakes and snake husbandry is very high, in my opinion.

Thanks.
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Peter Jolles
East Coast Colubrids
www.eastcoastcolubrids.com

Peter,

I was responding to your...

ted by: ECC at Thu Nov 2 05:41:36 2006 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

Mark, That's funny. So I guess it depends on the circumstance and the audience?

...post.

I read it as you calling me a liar. That warrented a personal response back. What good for the goose is good for the gander?

Forgive me if I misread it, but I did not know how else you could have meant it.

No worries. We are still buds. We can have a arguement without it geatting personal though. But whatever you say on here I take as a grain of salt anyway because i think you are a good guy. So all is cool as long as no hitting below the belt on our personal lives and business issues are thrown out there. Thats something that has no place on a public forum.

This is like people who think the bible contradicts itself. Did Jesus go up the hill on sermon on the mount or did he come down the hill?? Well maybe he had to go up to come down. Two different veiwpoints sometimes adds credidibilty to a fact. Both recorded differently in the gospels.

ANYWAY-

I don't recall the conversation and I don't doubt that I said those things. But yes "I did think" ("did" being the keyword here)that some of the lavender brooks were pure, Especially the Ricks and Lemke line. DID YOU THINK I WAS FATHER TIME?? Of course there were always the other cal king x brooks crosses you see that people made since the ealry 80's. Those are obvious and it has been down probably hundreds of times. But I did beleive the Lemke and Ricks line were pure because I bought into the high price and big breeders who sponsored and brokered the animals.. SO Why woulldn't I beleive it?

So when I said that some were and some were not thats what I meant at the time I spoke to you. Whenever that was.

I have came to the conclusion that the Lemke and Ricks line are outcrossed. It was due to a conversation I had with Chris Cullatta about 6 years ago which I did not give much weight since then. He and Ricks were at a rift with each other and I though he was just spreading gossip to hurt Ricks. Since then and after some though about the whitesided gene and some history of Ricks and Culltta I have come to the conclusion that the other lavender strains DO come from the cal king gene. Also the hypo pueblin and two other new morphs showed up from the Cullattas breeding facility. None have ever showed up anywhere else in the hobby..which is also unusual. When you have a new morph it usually shows up in unknown hets all over the place. Except with the possibility of two unkown hets been collected it is a rarity in this hobby to have only one person produce a new morph. And even more astronomical rarity to have FOUR new morphs of different species show up from one breeder in a years time..

Apology accepted.

Mark,

One more thing. I don't remember when we had the conversation walking around Daytona but i have heard of two people who produced albinos from wildcaught stock. But both times these snakes vanished or died and the lines dissapeared. I believe that these stories are a possiblity as the people involved were not money hungry breeders of the industry and didn't even know much of what they had or its value and id not make a penny off it.

Have you ever heard of any amel brooksi being born but dissaperaing in the hobby?

I was not putting any doubt into anything you've said. At least it was not my intent. I was just saying the part where you state "I started...." as if you were the only person who had their doubts all along. We all can only go by what we know at the time, right?

I don't doubt you can't remember the first time we met. I can't remember yesterday most of the time. Heck, you didn't remember I had purchased a 2x het/snow from you but I did.
Remember the goodies for the postman in the box? Do you also remember the time just before that where you had just popped out the peanut butters?? And said (via email)you would have liked to use the term "mahogany"? but that I had beeen using that term? I'm glad you stuck with PB especially since the new morph of jelly came after.
Anyway, yes I have heard of albinos popping up in collections of wc. The last I can honestly believe was from a snake collected in Hillsborough county. Not in the "old school" accepted brooksi range though, huh?
I have no idea where that lone albino ended up, but I believe it has since died...
I'm not sure just what I owe you an apology for but I'm sorry if I cause you any trouble.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

,,,, cuttin to the crib .

"I was not putting any doubt into anything you've said. At least it was not my intent. I was just saying the part where you state "I started...." as if you were the only person who had their doubts all along. We all can only go by what we know at the time, right? "

I think I went public about Tim Ricks animals before anyone. I never remember having a conversation regarding his animals in particular with you or if you even knew about his stock, pro breeders, and the whole story(?)

Could be "WHEN" this conversation took place. At the time of this conersation I could have been referring to one of two things. #1 the couple of pure ones that had popped out and then dissapeared OR #2 the Ricks stock. Two different things and you even said that you did not exist and then you posted that you have heard of some existing. See how confusing things can get?

I and the whole world knows that calif kings and Florida king had been cross hybridzed. Many of those have been around for years and their look is obvious. Ive known it for years. But the Tim Ricks stock and Lemke stock was different from those and have been seperated by breeders. The Ricks/Lemke line were new and a lot of people bought into it, including me. AT first.
Thgen later I don't recall anyone ever saying they were fakes except me and Chris Culatta. At the time you asked me what i thought I may have assumed you were asking me because i was more in the lopp with these animals than your were. So the conversation could havemeant one of two things.

Was the conversation we had centered around the Ricks/Lemke stock or was it about true pure amels EVER being in existense?

"I'm not sure just what I owe you an apology for but I'm sorry if I cause you any trouble. "

Either I was reffering to Tim Ricks stock or the couple that popped out of w/c floridana. It all within the timeline (point in time) we discussed any of this that I could have been referring to one or the other. I don't recall our conversation anyway but I don't doubt you that I said those things at all. I already explained that in another post. I did not always believe the Ricks stock was fake. But at one point I did. All depends on when we had the conversation. Just don't make it seem like I am saying one thing and then another...IT WAS YOUR INTENT, RIGHT? I would not do that to you without emailing you first and your assumption on a public post is what i was aking a public apology for because it was a form of an attack and it all a misunderstanding....as can be seen how others responed to it and then I have to defend it. Just a little tact on an open forum is something we all make mistakes on. I am no different and have done the same mistakes here so no apology needed. I hope we undertsand each other better now.whew!

Rainer - just curious --- what is the reasoning behind a hybrid like the one in your last post? 'Cause you think it's cool looking and you wondered if you could?

That snake would go straight into my big male Hatteras OBK's cage.

"Hybrids. It's what should be for dinner."
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Peter Jolles
East Coast Colubrids
www.eastcoastcolubrids.com

I posted it because it is wildcaught hybrid (not captive born) and in answer to hybrids that are similar and not that far apart when i fact they do breed in the wild if further apart and not just ratsnake to ratsnke hybrids et al..

Personally I think that a wild caught hybrid like this should be bred back into gophers and kings to see what they produce. I think if we undertand what happenes in nature better we can understand how many snakes evloved over a shorter period of time that most think.

The genetic similarity between a California king and a Florida king is probably way more than 99.9%. I would bet the same genetic similarity between a Cal king and an anaconda. Having the albino gene bred into the Florida affects “virtually” nothing as a percentage of DNA. All snakes are quite alike at that level. That is way too scientific for anybody thinking of freezing every hybrid out of concerns for the integrity of the planet. What a radical statement. If you are going to take hybrids out of the hobby, you might as well wish to take humans out of the hobby. Captive animals are our subjects and we will selective breed them to the limits of possibility. That is what humans do. Snakes, dogs, chickens, fish- get over it. I hope you lend your voice to the real threat to your naturally occurring favorites and oppose the destruction of habitat. As pointed out in a previous post, some have already been lost forever and continue to exist only in the captive community. That is surely the ultimate fate of all of the others. First they will become threatened, then protected (you won’t be able to own one) and then extinct. The captive bred creations will be all that you are allowed, and still able, to keep. Hope we can all be friends, we will come to need each other someday. Like today.

"The genetic similarity between a California king and a Florida king is probably way more than 99.9%. I would bet the same genetic similarity between a Cal king and an anaconda. Having the albino gene bred into the Florida affects “virtually” nothing as a percentage of DNA. All snakes are quite alike at that level."

Humans and chimpanzees share 99% of the same DNA. Are you telling me a cross between a human and a chimp would not create something significantly different from a human or a chimp? After breeding the human/chimp cross back into humans for a few generations have we "bred out" the chimp? The overwhelming percentage of DNA has nothing to do with how an animal looks. After generations of breeding a cali/floridana cross back into floridana, more than the amel gene remains from the cali. You cannot selectively breed out all of the other cali genes and not the amel gene. That said. Some people don't care if there are some cali genes in there. Good for them. Some people do care. There's room for both opinions.

Kingaz --- exactly my point.

Thanks!
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Peter Jolles
East Coast Colubrids
www.eastcoastcolubrids.com

I thought you were aware of Dr. Ken Kyrscos $100,000.00 grant and research he did to get his Phd in herpetology. It was on DNA research on the eastern getula group. Thats how we know the difference between a florida king, eastern king and meansi. That is how you eastrern king guys know the edisto Island pops and other island pops are still eastern kings. Before that you guys thought they were all different..!

Wow!

Another thing.

I think you misread my post. The 99% I mentioned HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH GENETICS. It had to do with people beleiving the lavender florida king morphs to be true.

Go read my post again.

A good example of how the internet can get people to beleive things about other just because someone says it (hey even I went along with it). Awmazing how one reads something and then believes it. A test of reading and comprehension should be administered before allowing membership for some.

"A good example of how the internet can get people to beleive things about other just because someone says it (hey even I went along with it). Awmazing how one reads something and then believes it. A test of reading and comprehension should be administered before allowing membership for some."

Ironic, I was quoting Upscale's post and not yours. You failed the reading and comprehension test. Spelling and grammar too.

Ironic, I was quoting Upscale's post and not yours. You failed the reading and comprehension test. Spelling and grammar too.

That was a push of the button. I meant to respond to his not yours.

I was really responding as Nokturnel Tom did by saying right off the bat “not Rainer here but...” Responding to the post from ECC about “I would euthanize or sterilize all of the hybrids and wacky morphs I could find”. He ended with “just my thoughts”. I was just adding my thoughts too. To clarify, I would be against killing all the hybrids.

Posted by: Upscale at Thu Nov 2 09:37:26 2006 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

I was really responding as Nokturnel Tom did by saying right off the bat “not Rainer here but...” Responding to the post from ECC about “I would euthanize or sterilize all of the hybrids and wacky morphs I could find”. He ended with “just my thoughts”. I was just adding my thoughts too. To clarify, I would be against killing all the hybrids.

Okay I see where you are saying that.

I guess i have jumped on the defensive to quickly. I guess a knee jerk reaction based on past experiences on here. Sorry.

People are so quick to get “in your face” or however you would put it. That is crazy, when you start telling the tales of Southern Reptiles I get all excited, now that makes for good stuff! HA! You got some stories I am still waiting to hear! People bashing hybrids, that is old news man.

Glad someone read my post....thanks Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

I understand the importance of line breeding locality animals for the sake of preserving those genes. I always express my concern for them vanishing if we don’t. There are plenty of guys dedicated to that and it is very commendable. My own project is line breeding patternless Goini. I think if there is such a thing as Goini or Means or whatever, these will preserve that line that would be very endangered if not for some attempt to keep “pure”. I also brought up on the hybrid forum breeding the whiteside Brooks to a leucistic rat. Not just for the sake of it but curiosity to understand any relation to leusism. It would create those dastardly mutts but I feel a worthy project to help understand the relationship to those traits. The fact that we might produce a leucistic Brooks I would consider a bonus, not something to be feared by the purists. I think there is plenty of room for both and it would be arrogant and narrow minded to find the other point unacceptable with such vehemence that you would state that if you were judge and jury you would not hesitate to also be executioner. I read all your posts! Thanks for contributing here. I might call you "Normal Tom".

I think there is plenty of room for both and it would be arrogant and narrow minded to find the other point unacceptable with such vehemence that you would state that if you were judge and jury you would not hesitate to also be executioner.

Amen

Rainer - taking a stand is not being arrogant.

I think it is funny that you are saying that I would be "executioner" for ridding the world of hybrids.

It's funny because you yourself are playing God or Mother Nature or whatever by hybridizing snakes that would never come into contact with each other naturally.

Hmmm ...

I am done with this discussion because I don't want to get booted and it is starting to get elevated.

Go ahead and have the Last Word.
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Peter Jolles
East Coast Colubrids
www.eastcoastcolubrids.com

Posted by: ECC at Thu Nov 2 12:14:20 2006 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

Rainer - taking a stand is not being arrogant.

Go ahead and have the Last Word.
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Peter Jolles

Peter,
I copied and pasted Upscales post. Just like I did above on your quote in bold balck. He wrote about the executioner word and I agreed with his post and thats why I said amen. Either way I don't think he was singeling you out and saying YOU were the executioner.

Peace brother!

Rainer
P.S.
If you really want to get pissed at me you should take me field collecting with you. Just ask Horridus . LOL!

What happened when you went field herping?
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Peter Jolles
East Coast Colubrids
www.eastcoastcolubrids.com

Rainer, Peter, both of you'se c'mon down to Texas and we will do it right, last king wins!
Todd Hughes

When these types of discussions pop up [and they always do over and over again] I try to make a few simple points
Hybrids do serve a purpose, once they exist people have something to compare pure snakes too, especially a new morph
Also that morph breeders and even hybrid breeders care a lot about things concerning the environment, but purists want to make us out to be contributors to the problems....that is unfair
I also feel these negative posts fuel the fire for people who hate to see our hobby in general...bad bad bad...they have enough BS excuses to hate us.
Also a bad guy is a bad guy, dishonest representation happens in all aspects of this hobby, not just hybrids. I will ad I feel some snakes should NEVER be hybridized. However mixing and matching common snakes, especially morphs is not such a big deal to me.
I also have to laugh out loud at times....because for example it is not uncommon for people to come on here looking for normal Brooksi. Suddenly people want to complain how there aren't any cause of the morph craze. A very well know reptile person told me that not two miles form where we were standing in South Florida was THE spot were most of the names lines of Hypo Brooksi came from. Of course there were normal beauties too. He went on to tell me how animal rights activists got wind of this and intentionally ruined it for snake breeders who collected there by dumping a ton of but ugly dark Florida Kings there. This was not because of morphs, but because of people collecting snakes in general. I have no reason to not believe him. He is a very knowledgeable person and is very well known where he lives and abroad.
I also was told that Indian tribes in the western half of the country that use snakes in thier rituals....which are actually released...have released plenty of non native snakes into the desert. Does this suck? Sure it does,,,but this is why we[meaning man in general] have played a huge part in an evolution of sorts concerning the snakes we see today both in nature AND in captivity. Some may think they can change this, but they can't. If people want to make the effort to preserve this n that hey that's great. But be it intentional, or unintentional...things change from decade to decade and with the way we're building on every acre of this country who knows what we will see in the future. My vote is leave the snakes in nature alone, make morphs and hybrids for the pet trade and take the interest AWAY from collecting them out of the wild. Sure there will always be people who love normals, to each his own, but there's plenty of stock already in the hands of established breeders. I am all for working with what we already have to play with be it normal or morph. I love Pituophis and to see a Hybrid annoys the pants off me. You have to realize in comparison to Kings Corns and Milks there are not half as many Pits in collections...so yeah I prefer them to be pure. I think collecting should be seriously policed, and that an ideal situation would be that some agency like Fish N game would collect on land before it was about to be developed and hand those snakes over to established breeders and zoos but that aint gonna happen. I know it may seem silly, and not realistic in places that have an bundance of snakes...like west TX. But we all know even some RESPECTED people collect in State Forests, and other protected places...and then get praised when they post their pictures on here!!!! Nice work bro! My problem with locale is...it makes people think wow these popular snakes are there?! I am going there to get me some. Then you see crap like this at shows....this pic speaks volumes and people like this are THE REAL PROBLEM! Tom Stevens
By the way, guess what some of the snakes in that tub were...those precious Eastern Kings!!!!!!!!!

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TomsSnakes.com

It is lawful to collect in the state forests here in Texas with the proper licenses but NOT the state parks! I agree with most of what Tom is saying, it is all about honestly representing your animals to the public, and people are people and you got bad and good. Hopefully, when people buy my stock, they know I caught it legally or I can back up my stock bought legally from respected dealers with evidence and verbal corraborations from you guys, my stocks' breeders! I like 'em all, I lean toward naturally occurring morphs and wild phenotypes but MAN those WS Specks are KILLIN' me, lol!I wake up thinkin about them! I will have 'em from the MASTER next year fo' sho'! Peter and Zee's stock of easterns are second to none and all the east coast morph breeders make me drool over the brooksi they are working with. There is room for us all and I am a lumper when it comes to us...we should all work together to produce the finest, healthiest captives for future generations of fanciers to enjoy. I mean, what started us on this long road in the first place? THE LOVE OF THE SNAKES!!! Everyone do what you do and give the other guys and gals respect if you want it in return. We can all agree to disagree so let's have another awesome challenging thread. I will start a new one: Let's see your favorite w.c. king, where when why it is your fav, then start your fav morph where when and why. Peace
Todd Hughes

Excellent post Upscale.

I've enjoyed reading this thread, even with its many personal attacks, misunderstandings and retractions (they've provided a humorous backdrop for an informative debate).

However, your post is a good example of what I REALLY love about this site: concise expression and recognition of varied opinions.

The world would be way too boring if we all agreed; and way too dangerous if we all refused to recognize the others views. Thanks for putting things in perspective and demonstrating the validity of both extemes.

Do you really mean it, or did you just like my punctuation? Ha! (I don't do LOL)

We all read it Tom, I am just too dumb to respond to most of the hybrid stuff, lol! I am lurking and learning, just as are many others and perhaps some of the responders should do as well! Great pits this year! I am saving up, lol!
Todd Hughes

Have I mentioned that I really like Bananas?
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3.0 WC; 0.3 CB L. getula californiae
1.0 CB L. getula nigrita
0.1.1 WC; 0.0.3 CH Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

It is not the breeders responsibility to keep the captive gene pool "pure". Now, if the breeder is being subsidized by some government agency in order to preserve the species, sure - but I don't think very many are (maybe some zoos).

But seriously, since we know gene flow and evolution happen, with new genes coming into a population or mutating, why do those new genes coming in via natural selection make the animal more ethical than coming in via poor mans genetic engineering?

What is your opinion on combination morphs? What are the chances of a blizard Cal King happening in the wild? Pretty slim is my guess. As in extremely slim. Is it ethical to genetically engineer using existing genes in a wild population as opposed to borrowing?

I use to see things the same you do.

-=-
I personally would love to see lavender and peanut butter MBKs.
Anyone working on those?
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3.0 WC; 0.3 CB L. getula californiae
1.0 CB L. getula nigrita
0.1.1 WC; 0.0.3 CH Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

..Andy Barr, who just about every kingsnake/milksnake hybridizer has heard of or may possibly have animals from his work (anyone with Jurassic milks), had some off the wall looking MBK. One was on the classifieds last year. An albino of sorts, it looked pretty damn cool. Kind of tannish, if memory serves...
He no longer works with snakes, or at least not as many. It was the Jurassic milks and such that were his way of trying to get albino Hondurans from crossing different species and subs.
He definitely had a knack for crossing different species and did much of the "pioneering" around these parts. He's forgotten more than I'll ever know about any of that stuff.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

Huh?

How can you make the leap to compare my breeding of "locality" animals together to the breeding of Cali Kings to Florida Kings.

Is there the possibility of "gene flow" from Cali Kings to Florida Kings in the wild? I think not.

You say you used to think like me - that's fine: I guess you have evolved past it.

Not me: I have become a "purist" and I will only breed locality to locality animals and by that I mean the SAME LOCALITY OF THE SAME SPECIES.

Call me a snob, call me whatever you want: I DON'T CARE. This reminds me of an interview I saw about Neil Young a couple of years ago. Stephen Stills talked about Crosby Stills and Nash touring with Neil Young. Neil got sick and tired of the other three not practicing and instead spending their free time having fun instead of getting ready for the show. Stills then said that Neil next just got on a plane and flew home and left in the middle of the tour - he was in it for the music only and once the other guys weren't in it for the music "he was gone" as Stills put it.

I am in this for my love of the snakes only. I don't care about breeding out albino's or "turkey sandwich with mustard" kings. Give me a break! I breed the stuff and sell what I breed and try to cover my expenses. I have met some pretty cool people along the way (like Crimsonking, Zee, Michael Coone, Phil Patton, Steve Craig, ZFelician, Seth Cheshire, Lindsay Pike, Brad Bauserman, Micah Stancil, Mike Bates, Justin Collins, Keith Hillson, and a bunch of others). You can take all of this other stuff and do whatever you want --- 'cause I think it is worthless.

You ought to go and get the kid's book called "The Emperor's New Clothes" because it sums up my thougts on morphs and mutants completely. One of the things I have always liked about North American colubrids is that the people associated with them (like the above mentioned) were so different than the whole Ball Python crowd!

Take it easy everyone...
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Peter Jolles
East Coast Colubrids
www.eastcoastcolubrids.com

Natural gene flow is already altered by habitat destruction, invasive species (including plants), etc. - all of which have an impact on the wild populations - either cutting them off from other populations, putting them in contact with other populations, or changing what genes are best suited for survival in that part of their range.

Locality breeding is great - but there is no ethical reason why it should be required. In fact, there is good reason to break locality - you need genetic diversity or the quality of the young breaks down. Unless you often take new specimens from your locale to strengthen your line, or there are enough breeders of your locale that you can swap with, your line is going to suffer.

Outcrossing with other locales is a way to bring genetic diversity back into your line when line breeding has removed it.

While you may be able to claim locality, the reality is that the number of genes in your line decrease over time if you don't bring in new blood, and it becomes a rather poor representation of the locale. I suppose if you kept all of your offspring, the rate of genetic material lost would be small, and obviously - the more specimens you start with and maintain, the slower the rate of genes lost - but with locale breeding, if you don't bring in new blood then you end up frequently breeding specimens that are genetically a lot closer to each other than would happen in the wild. Eventually you end up with a line where most of your breeders are genetically closer than a typical brother/sister mating.

My understanding is that this very problem exists in many San Francisco garter snake breeding colonies in Europe - they are having fertility problems because of a lack of genetic diversity. I wouldn't be surprised if it is contributing to the number of deformed hatchling posted here during hatching season.

So locale breeding itself starts to differ from wild gene pool - not in that new genes are introduced, but rather, genes get lost and diversity is reduced.

No, a California Kingsnake and Florida Kingsnake would never get together in the wild without human intervention. Neither would most locality snakes bred by the locality freak. We affect them, either intentionally by breeding - or unintentionally by building condos and shopping centers. Preserving a locale by locale breeding is a worthy thing to do, especially if there are enough breeders keeping careful records to reduce inbreeding and keep as much genetic variability as possible - but that is not the responsibility of the hobbyist breeder. The responsibility of the hobbyist breeder is to properly care for the animals in his care, and not break the law in obtaining the animals in his care.

Who he breeds them with is not a question of ethics, but of choice.

I'm going to try my hand at Rosy Boa breeding. I'm going to breed locale because it seems more profitable than breeding generic. I hope to take two stock from the wild (in 2008), and then buy captive bred mates for them from lines of the same locale, hoping to produce locale young that have good genetic diversity. They probably won't be as pretty first gen as the several generation captive bred lines though, just because locality snakes are often selectively bred for the human eye, and not survival.

But that is a choice I am making, a choice based on my desire to try and keep genetic variability, and yes - have an easier time selling them - not because it is ethically wrong to break locale (or even hybrid across genus/species/subspecies).

Keeping the genes of one subspecies out of another is not an ethics issue. It has nothing to do with morality. It is a choice.

I'm yammering though. So I'll get off my soap box now.
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3.0 WC; 0.3 CB L. getula californiae
1.0 CB L. getula nigrita
0.1.1 WC; 0.0.3 CH Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

I have nothing againt people hybridizing but I do think it is not established fact that locality breeding will lead to inbreeding any more than morph or hybrid breeding. Look at Pueblan Milks. According to Bob Applegate, one of the premire originators of them, they started with only about 30 wild individuals. There are probably thousands produced every year now. Many of them still are heathy and closely resemble their wild counterparts. The only reason some of them don't is because some people have chosen to take them in different directions, oreo, halloween, tangerine and sockheads. I think if someone chose to cull towards wild pattern and vigor that would be just as easily done as culling for exceptional color or abberant patterns.

"I'm going to try my hand at Rosy Boa breeding. I'm going to breed locale because it seems more profitable than breeding generic. I hope to take two stock from the wild (in 2008), and then buy captive bred mates for them from lines of the same locale, hoping to produce locale young that have good genetic diversity. They probably won't be as pretty first gen as the several generation captive bred lines though, just because locality snakes are often selectively bred for the human eye, and not survival"

Rosy boas huh. Thats great! I used to collect and breed them for many years. At one point I had up to 300 breeder rosy boas. They seem to be making a comeback since Scott Selsted (Vision cages)crashed the market on them by lowering the albino whitewater price from $2000. to $200. each at Oralndo one year. That really screwed a lot of breeders investments including myself. I have the feeling someone with a large ball python collection is going to do the same and everything is going to pot. Before Selsted lowered the price on his amel WW's the market supported $250-$400. for locale specif rosys. Then the dropped to $50. for a ANY locale rosy afterwards. A rosy was a rosy to most people. Made no difference in the locale. Nobody cared anymore. My first love is still locality specific rosys. BUT they are different from keeping other snakes pure such as E. kings ect becaue they are a true locality specific animal. Eastrn kings just blend and so do most other eastern species. Thats why i don't understand the mentality of locale only people when you have a king on one side of the highway and a king on the other they are still locality animals. Or people go by countiues???

Most places that rosys habitat are rock piles were they are surrounded by undresirable flat desert (I know, I know.. they do wander a bit to dry washes ect ) and for the most part stay within those piles. These rosys have stayed in these piles for so long that each rosy from each pile looks different. Thats a true locality animal.. Some locales are lumped into one group (like the San Gabriels) by herpers. But thats in name only. The rosys are still serperate. If you ever travel to the high desert or extreme low desert you will find them wherever there are rocks and each spot is seperate from the others and so are the look of the rosys. There are probably thousands or recognzable locales one can discover and name for each spot if you traveled outside the realm of rosy enthusiasts. In other words you can find your own spots. I used to do this when in the 70's and 80's when everyone was going to known places like Trona, Whitewater, Hemet, Cottonwood springs, Pi town ect.

So what locales are you think of collecting? Maybe I can throw a few hints out there for you in the collecting department this upcoming season.

Thank you for taking the time to share your pictures of your very beautiful lav Fla kings. I noticed no one bothered to tell you that in this long thread. I hope you take the negativity for what it was worth and just know your post quickly got off track and you didn’t get enough compliments for your gorgeous looking snakes. Thanks for postin,,,,,,,,,

thanks man i think they are very nice as well, and being from dbl.het. parents they are also possibly het.axanthic which is all the sweeter, if we ever meet you will see i take most things in life with a grain of salt,,,,,,,,,thomas

Thumbs up my friend!

Billy

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Genesis 1:1

"CaliFlorida's" hah hah - Chris you made me laugh at that one. I have not laughed that hard in a while.

I am a Redskins fan... I don't have much too laugh about lately

So thanks!
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Peter Jolles
East Coast Colubrids
www.eastcoastcolubrids.com

So hypo brooks also carry reminants of prior cali genes? Mutations are random in nature; anyone know of any captive breeding that produced "mutations" not sullied by former cross breedings?

Mike Cooper

I don’t believe the hypo in Brooks is from Cali. I know Doug Beard produced them around the same time it started popping up in Love inbred stock. I do think the albino trait was brought into it from Cali, but I’m not even aware of the hypo gene in Cali back then? One thing I noticed- I have a real old Ditmars book and he notes examinimg eggs from a lot of different North American snakes and finding albinos in almost everything. I wonder how it was so common in his experience or maybe he just examined a whole lot of wild clutches?

Why is the Lav gene T so rare in Cals compared to T- Amel gene i think that a Cal influence would be T- Amel. from decades ago

Lav "T pos" is not rare in Cal Kings - or my breeding size female would have been more than $50.

The reason amel is more common - I honestly don't know. But I have heard a lot of people say they got their albino because they thought a pink snake was cute (not knowing they don't stay pink I guess).
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3.0 WC; 0.3 CB L. getula californiae
1.0 CB L. getula nigrita
0.1.1 WC; 0.0.3 CH Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata