Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Here's some new pics of my Brewster co. emory or emory/meahllmorum intergrade. I took a few extra pics so Terry, Toby, and anyone else that's good with Great Plains rats can give an opinion on if they think mine is emory, or intergrade. I think Toby and Terry both said Brewster co. is an intergrade zone. I have a side shot, dorsal, and ventral.

Steve, Those are good shots of that snake. I am not an expert, but I think it is probably an intergrade. Now that I have seen more of the animal, it has colors most like a very light meahllmorum, I think. It has more dorsal blotches than meahllmorum, though and they are narrow like some emoryi. According to Dixon and Werler, the average number of dorsal botches in emoryi is 67, and the average for meahllmorum is 55. The ventrum is intermediate between the forms in shape and size of the checks, but more heavily patterned than most meahllmorum I have seen.

First photo is the ventrum of cbb offspring from wc Nueces Co. meahllmorum.
Second is my big female Nueces meahllmorum, showing some of the dorsal blotches. Notice that they are large and split by lighter colored transverse bars. Dixon and Werler say this occurs in about half of the specimens found, but I would say it is probably a little less than that.
Third is a shot of the big female's ventrum.
Terry has some good ventral and dorsal shots of his, also.

-Toby

Sorry Steve. I responded down below and didn't see this new post.
Whoever you got that one from must be reputable.
It looks just like the animals I've seen in that area.
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Regards, Bill McGighan

iam gonna go emoryi all the way with that one Steve. No saddles to speak of, lots of greenish tints in the blotches and the head shape is not elongated or "snoutish" as in Texas rats. Beautiful snake! My .02.
Todd Hughes

Todd, not necessarily disagreeing with you, but emoryi and meahllmorum are both highly variable. A couple of my '04 clutch from Nueces meahllmorum were greenish, and one was as light as Steve's emoryi. Unfortuantely, I sold or gave away all but 1.1, and I only have one bad photo of a very greenish female. Good point about the head shape; I agree, totally emoryi there. The snake is from a county in the middle of a proposed intergrade zone though, and I think likely to have some meahllmorum influence, but it could be 100% emoryi too. It's definitely 100% western guttatus (if you stand with the 'cornsnakes = one species' people)

-Toby

ps. Here's the 1.1 '04 meahllmorum I kept. Notice the slight greeinsh tinge on the male (lighter one). Second photo is the crappy pic of the greenish female.

Ok Toby but look at those middle areas on yours that have the light bar going through the blotches and the more saddle shaped blotches. The dors from val Verde county and the one specimen I have from west Texas have had the more rounded blotches, are typically greener in color and have a more blunt snout, although I don't know if blunt is the right word, shorter? head. Something about the arrowpoint also is escaping me, I see something but can't put my finger on it, and one more point, the stripe through the eyes vs. the stripe slightly behind the eyes? Just some more musings, lol! That little greeny you have is a gem!
Todd Hughes

Todd, points taken. I agree about the head shape and spearpoint. I think meahllmorum spears tend to be fatter and narrower, while emoryi is wider but thinner in the lines, if that makes any sense. Until recently, when I saw a map of possible intergradation, I thought that meahllmorum was restricted to south TX, east of the Big Bend area. I think much more research needs to be done on our Texas guttatas.

Unfortunately, I traded that little green female off, early this year. She was kind of a special snake, too, as she was the runt from a set of twins from one egg. she had a pretty aberrant pattern of very long saddles, and of course was the greenest of the bunch.

Here's a photo of an old male meahllmorum with some rounded blotches and light color.

-Toby

I don't think that there are any intergrades in Brewster County at all.Troy Hibbitts would know for sure.Heres one that I just missed one night in Val Verde near Buffalo Creek on 277.Bummer cause I had never seen a zig zag before.
Shannon

That would have been a killer, Shannon! I can see the green clearly without natural light. I was mentioning to Terry how the prairie rattlers have the same greenish look in Brewster county and it gets even greener the further west you go, I suppose it is the same with emoryi and/or intermontana.
Todd Hughes

Todd,Yes I used to have some intermontanes from debeque Colorado and they were really really green.Terry Parks ended up with them but I am not sure he still has them.
Shannon

I would like to go back to New Mexico and hunt the mountains for some things in the far north near the Colorado border again. That is where I have seen the greenest rattlesnakes in my life. Are there many snakes in Colorado besides gophers and rattlers? Just don't hear too much from that state.
Todd Hughes

well,there are alot of different snakes in colorado.Just don't hear to much about them.There are alot of western hogs on the east side of the rockies and alot of Gentilis.There are syspila in south eastern and pale x gentilis in north eastern.
The taylori are on the western slopes with the intermontana and the concolor (midget faded).other than that just the usual garters gophers(western slopes)bulls east side and ringnecks etc.....

Shannon

It would be cool to hear from some of the herpers in that area. I am almost finished here in Texas and will be meandering towads the west, haha, can't seem to be truely finished with west Texas though!
Todd Hughes

as of three years ago all the milks and hogs are all protected now.The concolor already were.those really green rattlers you saw were probably lutosos.
maybe just viridus though.

Troy says there are meahllmorum/emoryi intergrades in south Brewster, but the ones in north Brewster look more like emoryi.

-Toby

>>Here's some new pics of my Brewster co. emory or emory/meahllmorum intergrade. I took a few extra pics so Terry, Toby, and anyone else that's good with Great Plains rats can give an opinion on if they think mine is emory, or intergrade. I think Toby and Terry both said Brewster co. is an intergrade zone. I have a side shot, dorsal, and ventral.
>>

Steve, that's a nice snake, plus great pix. Although it looks more emoryi than meahllmorum, technically, it's in the intergrade zone, according to Vaughan et al. (1996). Emoryi and meahllmorum are definitely the same snake, and many don't recognize the subspecies, but if we do, then the intergrade zone is pretty huge (about 100 miles according to some authors). I would imagine some snakes in this zone look like typical emoryi, some like typical meahllmorum, and some like intergrades, a little of everything.

Here are some pix of this summer's offspring from an intermontana x meahllmorum crossing (c/b). The dorsal blotches, not including tail blotches, are around 45, max for meahllmorum and min for emoryi...

Personally, I think the West TX guttata have a look of their own, not exactly emoryi, not meahllmorum, just a cool combination of characters, including color/pattern, size, and temperment, etc. Hope to see more of these.

TC