Reptile & Amphibian Forums

ok, im sure alot of you have seen john berry's book with the albino BRB owned by Ian Gniazdowski of outback reptiles, as well as some of the other morphs.

and we know Rubios Reptiles has T- albino Colombians.

my question to yall is:

would you be interested in out-crossed albino hybrids?
if the colombian albinos were bred into brazilians would you be interested in the offspring, i.e would you want one? and would you see it as a posiitve or negative.

for my part i wouldn't be, but i want to hear your opinions on it.

thanks everyone.

jon
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2.4 west papuan carpet pythons
0.4 brazillian rainbow boas
1.8 ball pythons

I like BRB's because of the color. . .

I dont think i would be too intrested.
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Russ
1 Brazillian Rainbow Boa (< 1 year old)
1 Rosy Boa (G/F's Snake)

Somehow i have to feed both?!
Melbourne, Fl

Good question. I don't know if I'd be interested right now because I'm so focused on outcrossing the hypomels and producing the ghosts. What you are suggesting would be a whole separate road.

I think it would be prety risky to attempt this sort of cross now because the albinos still need to be outcrossed themselves. After we have several bloodlines, and they are more readily available, someone may think of doing it.

As for value, I place a lot of value on what it takes to get somewhere. I see the albinos as being valuable because they're rare but even more so because you just can't cross them to each other yet. It's going to take a lot of time and effort to come up with a healthy breeding population within the US. It took me 12 years with the hypos and we're only scratching the surface. There are only two or three distinct heterozygous lines at this point.

On the other hand, when someone crosses a Green Tree Python to a Carpet Python, I don't see much in terms of value. Two relatively common snakes are being crossed to produce something that is currently rare, but we can make lots of them if we wanted to. I don't mean any disrespect to Carpondro breeders. Just my .02.

As for the "ethical" issues that surround such a cross, I see this hobby as a combination of science, art and passion. If a person thinks they can produce a beautiful animal by crossing two distinct species, by all means go for it. Unlock the beauty that's hidden inside the DNA. At the same time, we can appreciate the beauty of a wild type brazilian that has deep red color, jet black outlines and perfect orange crescents as the result of years of selecting for these traits.

How's that for a non-committal answer. Great discussion though.
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Mike Lockwood
www.tooscaley.com

With the future possibility of albino BRB's being available from Ian, I would not want a cross. However, if Ian is not successful in producing albino BRB's, then????

As several of the regulars here already know, I have long range plans for Hypo and Anery BRB's and would definately be interested in the Albino as well. I have a very diverse stock and own several (OK, quite a few) outstanding animals. One of the advantages of producing your own babies, you get to keep the best of the best!!

For both Hypo and Anery (and albino when available for less than an arm and a leg) I plan on outcrossing the morphs into several of my unrelated normals to diversify the bloodlines and produce semi-unrelated breeding stock.
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC)
0.2 kids (CBB, selectively bred from good stock)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
13.26 BRB
11.16 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Is this the snake shown on the following page?

http://www.designermorphs.com/submissions.htm

If it is, it's nothing like I imagined an albino BRB to look like!
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_____

signature file edited, contact an admin. 2/13/06

np
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2.4 west papuan carpet pythons
0.4 brazillian rainbow boas
1.8 ball pythons

I'm curious to know why you ask. Currently, the trend in herpetoculture isn't to take morphs of different subspecies and cross them. We can get plenty of designer genes to show up within the subspecies working with the morphs available. If the albino brazilian didn't exist, then I could see the reasoning behind trying to bring in the albino columbian gene.
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Mike Lockwood
www.tooscaley.com

but im not sure if it was confidential or not, so i would rather not get into specifics. but i brought up the maurusxcenchria issue to light because of possibilities mentioned in the discussion.

sorry i can't give anymore info than that.
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2.4 west papuan carpet pythons
0.4 brazillian rainbow boas
1.8 ball pythons

No worries, it's none of my business. I was just curious.
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Mike Lockwood
www.tooscaley.com

This is a touchy subject with a lot of people. I am big on keeping subspecies true. I can understand people crossing things because this is a hobby of science when you think about it. I mean this is a hobby where genetics are loved and people want to know more and more about them. I saw some of those albinos down in Daytona I believe they were colombian or argentinian or whatever I know they were not BRB's. I love BRB's and I would love to see an albino one and I am sure someone will cross the two to make them but I think the exciting thing is realizing if there can be one subspecies with albino then that means that sooner or later there will be a natural occuring BRB albino but until then lets have some fun with genetics. I can't afford any BRB morphs now anyways but if I could I probably wouldnt cross but I will not condem someone who does do it. I have corn snakes also and I refuse to get a creamsicle because it is a cross between the albino emoryi rat ( i believe)and albino corns or things like jungle corns and rootbeer corns. But I have seen them before and they are pretty cool looking. I saw some of those carpet/green tree crosses at Daytona also for the first time, I have to admit that was a sweet looking snake but it doesn't mean I would do it. Now one day I may own something like that just for the look and having it in my collection but I wouldn't breed them. But the way I see it, let folks have fun on a genetics stand point and if ya don't like it thats your taste. Sorry for all my rambling.
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1.1 Motley het butter corns
0.1 Snow corn
0.1 Okeetee corn
1.0 Anery mutt corn
0.1 Stripe Ghost corn
0.1 Amelanistic corn het carmel
2.1 Colombian Redtails
1.0 Hypo Colombian redtail
1.0 Brazilian Rainbow Boa
1.0 Anery Kenyan sand boa
0.1 Normal Kenyan sand boa

I can't answer any of those questions. I do find it fascinating to watch though. There are too many unknown circumstances in EVERY aspect of you questions. If narrowed down to what would form the basis of my opinion I say the intent behind the action.

Yikes...this is a never-ending subject for me.

Jon,
...Good idea for a thread here. I do happen to have a couple of very opinionated (and extremely wordy) ideas on the subject.
...I absolutely hate that reptile breeding has become so lucrative and that there are many people in it who have visions of making lots of money. Many of them still claim that they are doing it solely for the love of the animals. To which I reply....pffft.
...I think that the value of an animal should be based on three criteria. Those three criteria are beauty, rarity and suitability as a pet. It goes without saying that there is going to be more demand for a pretty snake than a plain snake. A snake that is rare should be worth more than one that is common. Morphs are not rare. There are hundreds of different morphs being produced in large numbers. If a snake is not suitable for keeping or has requirements that make it too difficult for many people to keep then there is no point to trying to make money breeding it after the supply of animals exceeds the number of motivated qualified keepers. If there are not many people who can take care of it there will quickly be more of them on the market than there are qualified keepers for them. The big problem that I see is that too many people think the value of a snake should also and primarily be based upon potential for making money. These people have driven the price of many snakes, mostly morphs to rediculously high prices. The prices will come down eventually. I have been making the claim that the prices will come down for many (15 )years and I have been right with some of the morphs and very wrong with many of them. Many prices continue to stay high and there are many people making money breeding these snakes. The conventional wisdom was that only the first people in on the breeding of a particular morph would make money on them but there are many examples of morphs that continue to be good "investments" long after they have become bred in large numbers. I just hate ALL of this. I was giving baby snakes away at one time and perhaps I will be again at some time in the future. At least at that time we really will see who is honestly in it just for the love of the animals.
...Getting to your specific questions. I personally am disappointed in the way that Ian's albino BRB looks. Does anyone know the story on where that snake came from? On the other hand I think that Ricardo's albino Colombian Rainbows are amazingly beautiful snakes. This just seems backwards???? Brazilian Rainbow Boas are prettier snakes than Colombian Rainbow Boas but the albino Colombians are much prettier than the albino Brazilian.
...I think it is only a matter of time before the albino Colombians get crossed to Brazilians. Ricardo has albino Colombians for sale at what seems like reasonable prices. I can't believe I wrote that, but they are reasonable in comparison to the prices of many lesser morphs. We may be some time away from seeing albino Brazilians on the market and so someone will buy some of the albino Colombians and cross them to Brazilians. It is likely that at least a few of them are already in the hands of people who plan to breed them to Brazilians. I hate to see this crossing happen and hope that the people who have dollar signs in their eyes will run into the problems that they do not know about in trying to cross these two subspecies. There have been reports of crosses of these two subspecies but in fact they may be fully seperate species and many people who have tried crossing them have not had luck at it. Shhhhhh.....We are going to keep this very secret so we can have a chuckle when people start posting questions here asking why they are having trouble getting babies crossing albino Colombians with Brazilians. I am betting that we will start seeing posts about this subject within the next 18 months.
...In conclusion I will claim that the only reason I bought het hypo BRBs was solely because of my love of the snakes. You can't see it but my nose is growing longer.
Life is good!
Jeff Clark

>>ok, im sure alot of you have seen john berry's book with the albino BRB owned by Ian Gniazdowski of outback reptiles, as well as some of the other morphs.
>>
>>and we know Rubios Reptiles has T- albino Colombians.
>>
>>my question to yall is:
>>
>>would you be interested in out-crossed albino hybrids?
>>if the colombian albinos were bred into brazilians would you be interested in the offspring, i.e would you want one? and would you see it as a posiitve or negative.
>>
>>for my part i wouldn't be, but i want to hear your opinions on it.
>>
>>thanks everyone.
>>
>>jon
>>-----
>>2.4 west papuan carpet pythons
>>0.4 brazillian rainbow boas
>>1.8 ball pythons

.>>Jon,
>>...Good idea for a thread here. I do happen to have a couple of very opinionated (and extremely wordy) ideas on the subject.
>>...I absolutely hate that reptile breeding has become so lucrative and that there are many people in it who have visions of making lots of money. Many of them still claim that they are doing it solely for the love of the animals. To which I reply....pffft.
>>...I think that the value of an animal should be based on three criteria. Those three criteria are beauty, rarity and suitability as a pet. It goes without saying that there is going to be more demand for a pretty snake than a plain snake. A snake that is rare should be worth more than one that is common. Morphs are not rare. There are hundreds of different morphs being produced in large numbers. If a snake is not suitable for keeping or has requirements that make it too difficult for many people to keep then there is no point to trying to make money breeding it after the supply of animals exceeds the number of motivated qualified keepers. If there are not many people who can take care of it there will quickly be more of them on the market than there are qualified keepers for them. The big problem that I see is that too many people think the value of a snake should also and primarily be based upon potential for making money. These people have driven the price of many snakes, mostly morphs to rediculously high prices. The prices will come down eventually. I have been making the claim that the prices will come down for many (15 )years and I have been right with some of the morphs and very wrong with many of them. Many prices continue to stay high and there are many people making money breeding these snakes. The conventional wisdom was that only the first people in on the breeding of a particular morph would make money on them but there are many examples of morphs that continue to be good "investments" long after they have become bred in large numbers. I just hate ALL of this. I was giving baby snakes away at one time and perhaps I will be again at some time in the future. At least at that time we really will see who is honestly in it just for the love of the animals.
>>...Getting to your specific questions. I personally am disappointed in the way that Ian's albino BRB looks. Does anyone know the story on where that snake came from? On the other hand I think that Ricardo's albino Colombian Rainbows are amazingly beautiful snakes. This just seems backwards???? Brazilian Rainbow Boas are prettier snakes than Colombian Rainbow Boas but the albino Colombians are much prettier than the albino Brazilian.
>>...I think it is only a matter of time before the albino Colombians get crossed to Brazilians. Ricardo has albino Colombians for sale at what seems like reasonable prices. I can't believe I wrote that, but they are reasonable in comparison to the prices of many lesser morphs. We may be some time away from seeing albino Brazilians on the market and so someone will buy some of the albino Colombians and cross them to Brazilians. It is likely that at least a few of them are already in the hands of people who plan to breed them to Brazilians. I hate to see this crossing happen and hope that the people who have dollar signs in their eyes will run into the problems that they do not know about in trying to cross these two subspecies. There have been reports of crosses of these two subspecies but in fact they may be fully seperate species and many people who have tried crossing them have not had luck at it. Shhhhhh.....We are going to keep this very secret so we can have a chuckle when people start posting questions here asking why they are having trouble getting babies crossing albino Colombians with Brazilians. I am betting that we will start seeing posts about this subject within the next 18 months.
>>...In conclusion I will claim that the only reason I bought het hypo BRBs was solely because of my love of the snakes. You can't see it but my nose is growing longer.
>>Life is good!
>>Jeff Clark
>>
>>>>ok, im sure alot of you have seen john berry's book with the albino BRB owned by Ian Gniazdowski of outback reptiles, as well as some of the other morphs.
>>>>
>>>>and we know Rubios Reptiles has T- albino Colombians.
>>>>
>>>>my question to yall is:
>>>>
>>>>would you be interested in out-crossed albino hybrids?
>>>>if the colombian albinos were bred into brazilians would you be interested in the offspring, i.e would you want one? and would you see it as a posiitve or negative.
>>>>
>>>>for my part i wouldn't be, but i want to hear your opinions on it.
>>>>
>>>>thanks everyone.
>>>>
>>>>jon
>>>>-----
>>>>2.4 west papuan carpet pythons
>>>>0.4 brazillian rainbow boas
>>>>1.8 ball pythons
-----
When the student is ready, the teacher appears. When the student is ready, the teacher appears. When the student is ready, the teacher appears. When the student is ready, the teachers appears.

Jeff,

You've been doing this a long time and I do respect your opinion but I just don't understand why you have such strong feelings about the prices that are asked for some of these animals. I see it as a sign of appreciation for the hard work that we put into these snakes. It's a real nice rub when someone takes what you do so seriously. Even though I'm charging some high prices, I truely do this because I love the snakes. The only reason I don't offer less expensive "wild types" is because I'm limited on space. In fact, I think I could turn a quicker profit by selling more normal brazilians rather than less hypos. I'd actually rather produce less animals of any type each year because it's easier to keeep them around and to find more good homes for them (rather than wholesaling them all off to god knows what fate).

I'm also not sure I agree with your criteria on pricing. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and just because something is very beautiful doesn't necessarily mean it was hard to produce. In my opinion value is based on the effort it takes to produce something, the supply, and the demand. Like I am fond of saying, it's taken me a long time to get to the point where I can offer nice hypos but even though I've put so much effort into it, they would be without value if there were no demand.

I've heard you say before that morphs aren't rare. I'm not sure what you mean by this? Comparatively, they are certainly very rare, they will become more popular as more and more people start working with them. Is this what you mean?

I do agree with your statement that there is no point in breeding animals that are too difficult to keep for most people. This really goes back to supply and demand. One of the reasons I wanted to ask people about the babies they're producing is that I'd like to get an idea of the supply and demand in the BRB market.

I've also heard you say several times that you have given away baby snakes. I have done this as well but I really don't like it. The people who I have given animals to haven't taken as much care with them as the ones who have spent their hard-earned money. The appreciation just wasn't there.

So, I hope no one thinks I have dollar signs in my eyes. I have no illusions of giving up my day job. All I want to do is produce spectacular animals and make people happy and proud to own them. In turn, I only purchase animals that I am proud and happy to own. So far, it's been a cycle that has just fed into itself.

Sorry to disagree with you, I don't want to start an argument but some discussion would be good
-----
Mike Lockwood
www.tooscaley.com

Mike,
...I think we agree on a whole lot more than we disagree. I especially respect your opinions. As the originator of the hypo bloodline you can take pride in what you have done with them. You can honestly say that of all the people who own them you definitley did not get into them with dollar signs in your eyes. For ALL the rest of us the potential to make some money had to at least play into our decisions to spend money on this beautiful morph.
...Are morphs rare? When we were getting into snakes back a long long time ago morphs were very rare. Albino corns and then a little later albino kingsnakes were something that was really unique. Now that there are albinos of hundreds of different snakes and a bazillion combination morphs out there I have trouble thinking that morphs are rare. It is interesting that morphs in Rainbow Boas have not been highly prolific and so are still fairly rare. The failure to produce babies from several albino Rainbow Boas that were imported over the last 20 years is especially interesting.
...Prices? I too think that giving away snakes made them seem less desireable to the people I gave them to. I have no problem with you or I or other breeders charging for and getting market value for any of the snakes we produce. When you had proven the heritability of the hypo morph they became valuable but a big part of why they became SO valuable was that some people saw them as having the potential to make them some easy money. I think that greed on the part of many people drove morph prices too high. There are too many people going crazy over and thinking morphs are really special solely because they think they can make big money on them. The recent sharp rise and then equally sharp drop in Ball Python morphs is disturbing. Some people made a lot of money and some people lost a lot of money on Ball Pythons. I am not saying that making money on snakes is bad but that overall the commercialism has gotten out of hand and in the end soured many people on what has been a very satisfying lifelong hobby for people like you and I.
...This is all kind of confusing to me. How much is a living animal worth? I paid $100 for my Scottish Terrier. A bargain price. Are dogs worth thousands of dollars? Not to me but who am I to argue with what someone else wants to spend for an animal. I paid 5 grand for a Throroughbred gelding for my daughter. Seemed like a terrible waste of money. She is still riding him and showing him 17 years later. Must have been a very good investment. Life is funny.
Jeff

>>Jeff,
>>
>>You've been doing this a long time and I do respect your opinion but I just don't understand why you have such strong feelings about the prices that are asked for some of these animals. I see it as a sign of appreciation for the hard work that we put into these snakes. It's a real nice rub when someone takes what you do so seriously. Even though I'm charging some high prices, I truely do this because I love the snakes. The only reason I don't offer less expensive "wild types" is because I'm limited on space. In fact, I think I could turn a quicker profit by selling more normal brazilians rather than less hypos. I'd actually rather produce less animals of any type each year because it's easier to keeep them around and to find more good homes for them (rather than wholesaling them all off to god knows what fate).
>>
>>I'm also not sure I agree with your criteria on pricing. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and just because something is very beautiful doesn't necessarily mean it was hard to produce. In my opinion value is based on the effort it takes to produce something, the supply, and the demand. Like I am fond of saying, it's taken me a long time to get to the point where I can offer nice hypos but even though I've put so much effort into it, they would be without value if there were no demand.
>>
>>I've heard you say before that morphs aren't rare. I'm not sure what you mean by this? Comparatively, they are certainly very rare, they will become more popular as more and more people start working with them. Is this what you mean?
>>
>>I do agree with your statement that there is no point in breeding animals that are too difficult to keep for most people. This really goes back to supply and demand. One of the reasons I wanted to ask people about the babies they're producing is that I'd like to get an idea of the supply and demand in the BRB market.
>>
>>I've also heard you say several times that you have given away baby snakes. I have done this as well but I really don't like it. The people who I have given animals to haven't taken as much care with them as the ones who have spent their hard-earned money. The appreciation just wasn't there.
>>
>>So, I hope no one thinks I have dollar signs in my eyes. I have no illusions of giving up my day job. All I want to do is produce spectacular animals and make people happy and proud to own them. In turn, I only purchase animals that I am proud and happy to own. So far, it's been a cycle that has just fed into itself.
>>
>>Sorry to disagree with you, I don't want to start an argument but some discussion would be good
>>-----
>>Mike Lockwood
>>www.tooscaley.com

I see what you're saying about the rarity of morphs. Individual albino BRBs are rare. Morphs in general are not. There are lots of morphs per species of snake out there. Breeding two albinos together to make albinos is no harder than breeding two normals together (except for the outcrossing that should be done to diversify the line ) so why should they cost more (well, the work towards the outcrossing and the individual rarity in the beginning). Essentially, I see your point and agree.

Prices...I guess I don't see it as disturbing as much as exciting. I laugh too when I hear about snakes going for 50 or 75K. I'm just not in that tax bracket but if someone wants to spend their money like that, I wish them all the best on their investment. I really can't deny that greed is present in our hobby. It's everywhere else, why should our group be immune. I'm also willing to sit back and let the truly greedy be soured on our hobby. It's just the natural pruning of those who don't need to be involved in this. The people who stay are truly passionate and committed. That said, I'll see you here when the prices of hypos approach that of the wild type and we'll have a beer O.K. (hopefully not for a while, but I'm going to get a beer now anyway).

Yeah, I've never paid any money for a dog in my life until recently. Growing up we always had one or two or more rescued dogs that made great companions. Three years ago I spent an obscene amount on this stupid boxer for my wife that I just can't live without. Monitarily, I know he's not worth a single cent more than any of the rescue dogs I've ever had, but he makes us happy so I don't regret spending the money. Thanks for the reply (tips a glass). I'm going to finish this and go to bed
-----
Mike Lockwood
www.tooscaley.com

Being mainly a Ball Python man, and have been for years before the huge increase of morphs, I was initially surprised by the decrease of prices last year. But if you think about it, there is not other boid that is kept in numbers even close to what bp's are. It's fairly easy to get a decent size breeding group together and these snakes aren't hard to breed. It is very easy for someone with basic snake care experience to produce 50 or more babies if they want to spend the money on buying alot of former pet females.

with that said, lol. I've been slowly building up a group of BRB's and from all the research I've done, they seem to require much more experience from the keeper to get consistant results when breeding. Next year will be the first year we breed our rainbow's over here and will be holding back most if not all of the babies mainly because out of all our snakes, wild type rainbows are second only to hypo rainbow's, lol. SHHHHHHHH don't tell the ball python forum I said that, lol. Eventually I want to be producing about 100 ball pythons a year and 100 rainbow's a year mainly as a supplemental income to pay for our yearly vacation to daytona in aug and hopefully save some. No neither me nor my wife will ever quit our day job's as nurses and we don't NEED the extra income but it is nice. who wouldn't rather make $175k a year rather than $150k. So with me, I have snakes beause I love working with them. I have so many to make a little money doing what I love.

-----
Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons:::

1.0 striped vanilla
1.0 spider
1.2 Citrus Ghost and hets
1.2 Albino and hets
2.3 het Pied
0.6 50% poss het pied
1.1 Pastel (male has additional gene going on with him)
a bunch of normal female breeders
a bunch of normal female holdbacks and several rescued normal males

0.1 columbian boa, she's a feeding monster, controls my
over production of rats, lol
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa, another rat eating monster
1.1 corns

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

I like your plan to produce 100(ish) BRB's a year as supplemental vacation income. I do have a few questions / points for you.

Looks like your sig file is out of date because you said you were building a breeding group and will start breeding next year. The sig file has 0.1 BRB and last time I checked, that won't produce anything but poop in the cage.

If I were you, I'd rethink the "holding back most if not all of the babies" plan. IMO, you'd be better off purchasing some diverse stock. By all means hold back any outstanding babies, but don't let your colony get too inbred.

To produce 100 babies is anywhere from 3 huge to 10 small litters. I just checked my records and the average litter is 17.45 babies. So to average 100 babies would mean around 5 or 6 litters per year. Even kept in pairs, that's only 12 adult BRB's, less than one litter.

Another option would be to breed females every other year for larger litters. You could still do the 12 BRB's but make it 4.8, that woulod be only 4 litters pewr year but with larger average litters should still be around 100 babies per year.

>>Being mainly a Ball Python man, and have been for years before the huge increase of morphs, I was initially surprised by the decrease of prices last year. But if you think about it, there is not other boid that is kept in numbers even close to what bp's are. It's fairly easy to get a decent size breeding group together and these snakes aren't hard to breed. It is very easy for someone with basic snake care experience to produce 50 or more babies if they want to spend the money on buying alot of former pet females.
>>
>>with that said, lol. I've been slowly building up a group of BRB's and from all the research I've done, they seem to require much more experience from the keeper to get consistant results when breeding. Next year will be the first year we breed our rainbow's over here and will be holding back most if not all of the babies mainly because out of all our snakes, wild type rainbows are second only to hypo rainbow's, lol. SHHHHHHHH don't tell the ball python forum I said that, lol. Eventually I want to be producing about 100 ball pythons a year and 100 rainbow's a year mainly as a supplemental income to pay for our yearly vacation to daytona in aug and hopefully save some. No neither me nor my wife will ever quit our day job's as nurses and we don't NEED the extra income but it is nice. who wouldn't rather make $175k a year rather than $150k. So with me, I have snakes beause I love working with them. I have so many to make a little money doing what I love.
>>
>>
>>-----
>>Josh & Krysty Hutto
>>J&K Reptiles
>>
>>Various Ball Pythons:::
>>
>>1.0 striped vanilla
>>1.0 spider
>>1.2 Citrus Ghost and hets
>>1.2 Albino and hets
>>2.3 het Pied
>>0.6 50% poss het pied
>>1.1 Pastel (male has additional gene going on with him)
>>a bunch of normal female breeders
>>a bunch of normal female holdbacks and several rescued normal males
>>
>>0.1 columbian boa, she's a feeding monster, controls my
>> over production of rats, lol
>>0.1 brazilian rainbow boa, another rat eating monster
>>1.1 corns
>>
>>
>>a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC)
0.2 kids (CBB, selectively bred from good stock)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
12.24 BRB
11.13 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Yeah the sig line is out dated as we are up to 3.6 rainbows now with only one pair going to be big enough to breed next season and that will give me a good trial run before the rest of the females get big enough so hopefully I'll know what I'm doing,lol. What we are planning on having is 5.10 and breeding the females every other year with the occasional 2 year in a row breeding if the female is in perfect condition but then giving that female at least 1 year off and possibly 2 off.

As far as holding all babies back for that first year is because I really love how they look and I've seen average babies turn into stunning adults. And since my rodents are free, feeding a few more animals really isn't that big of a deal (free rodents as I breed my own and sell off alot to pay for all their up-keep). I understand that inbreeding in boa's is much worse than with other species for some reason and I plan on never doing it, which is why I don't even want to add a morph animal into the collection to help prevent the urge to do so on my part, lol.

So I hope this clears up our intentions and we hope to be able to become valuable people in the advancement of this beautiful species in the future.
-----
Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons:::

1.0 striped vanilla
1.0 spider
1.2 Citrus Ghost and hets
1.2 Albino and hets
2.3 het Pied
0.6 50% poss het pied
1.1 Pastel (male has additional gene going on with him)
a bunch of normal female breeders
a bunch of normal female holdbacks and several rescued normal males

0.1 columbian boa, she's a feeding monster, controls my
over production of rats, lol
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa, another rat eating monster
1.1 corns

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

thanks for your reply jeff, as always yours is an opinion i appreciate alot.

p.s. make any good trades lately ?
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2.4 west papuan carpet pythons
0.4 brazillian rainbow boas
1.8 ball pythons

Jeff,

I'm glad you think that snake doesn't 'look right.' I pistured the albino BRB to be ORANGE/RED with white rings. An absolutely STUNNING snake. Possibly the best albino out there. However, that animal pictured is well...Mmmm...not cutting the mustard. Taking black pigment away from a normal BRB would not result in that albino appearance in my opinion.

Personally, I still think we have something BIG to blow us all away. Unfortunately by then, the Colombian / ???? blood will have been bred into BRBs and we'll already have a 'soup' which will will be a shame.

Anyway...time will tell!
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signature file edited, contact an admin. 2/13/06

That BRB isn't albino, if it is the one picture on designer morphs website. That snake has the "white-sided" genetic disorder seen in bullsnakes and kingsnakes, IMHO. It simply lacks pigment on the sides and has very reduced pigment onthe dorsal surface. And yes....it is ugly on top of that.

As for the intergradation, how pure is pure enough? I don't know of many locality bred lines of BRBs. They are bred for color and if an animal from the Guyanan shield is found to have colors similar to another animal from central Brazil, no one hesitates to breed them. So there aren't any "pure" BRBs in captivity anyway.

Then there is the math issue. If you breed an albino maurus to a BRB, you end up with hets that are 50% BRB blood. Assuming you are just out for a buck and you breed those hets together rather than outcrossing, your first albinos will be 50% BRB blood. Then you sell these to your friends, they cross them to their nicest BRBs, produce hets which are now 75% BRB and breed those to produce snakes which are 75% BRB. Assuming you outcross every other generation (a common practice because most people don't buy two albinos if they are expensive), you will reduce the maurus blood by 50% each generation. Within 4 generations you are selling snakes that are 95% BRB. Do you think anyone will care (or remember) that the originals were a different (sub)species? I don't.
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Chris Harrison
San Antonio, Texas