Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Some of my RES have I believe a vitiman A deficiency. They eyes are swolen shut. They cannot eat, so no way to fix this problem through diet. A woman I know suggested to get vitamin A gelcaps poke a hole in the gelcap and force feed the gel to the turtles. Anyone here think this is fine? Is there something else I should do? If in fact I should then how do you force feed a turtle. I was assuming to maybe just pry it's little mouth open and squirt the gel in the mouth. Or would it be possibly affective to just squirt the gel on the eyes? When I get this problem fixed anyone know what foods are high in vitamin A? BTW I am already using the Zoo Med turtle eye drops it contains an oil based vitamin A and it's not working. I already know I will get suggestions to take this $3 turtle to the vet. (I know I risk getting flaming replies about this) but get realistic it's not like RES are an endangered species. I want to cure them and I will buy what I have to do so and I know a vet I could buy the meds from if someone here knows what meds it needs. Thank you very much for any replies I will recieve on this issue.

If a vitamin A deficiency is caused by improper diet then usually by the time they can't open their eyes this has turned into pneumonia.
If that happens there isn't anything you can do other than see a vet because the medications they need can't be bought without prescription.

Other things to look at are husbandry. What's the water temperature? The basking area temp? Do they have UV/B lighting or access to real sunlight? What foods had they been eating before this happened?
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PHRatz

You're right somebody has to ask.
Why isn't it realistic to treat a $3.00 animal? If you find a vet who knows what he or she is doing and this animal could live 50 years or more then why isn't it worth the treatment?
You brought them home and called them pets, denying medical treatment to a pet that needs it is cruel.
They aren't disposable trinkets they are alive and suffering after all.

I knew it was coming,
I know it seems cruel but first of all. I know enough about these turtles to know that the chances of survival are very slim even with medical treatment. I am doing what I can to help them within reason. I will go to a vet and get the medication needed but I am not going to pay a specialized herp vet $100.00 to diagnose these turtles and then prescribe a medication that will cost additional money for the turtles to still end up dying anyhow. I am wanting to find out what I can do to avoid this problem from happening again. And to treat them the best I can within reason. I have just recently started a state wide non profit herpetological society, Alabama to be specific. We don't have one. It may seem cruel to not spend the $100 on a vet for these particular turtles I would prefer to invest that money into the herpetological society I started. I have already invested much more money then you would ever believe into starting it. Only someone that has started a non profit organization would know. The $100 would do more good for the herp society then the turtles that are probably bound to die anyhow. Sorry if that offends you but thats my stand on the subject.

That being said could anyone possibly tell me what treatment and medication would be needed to treat these turtles for pnumonia? Even if I was going to take them to a vet no vets around here know anything about or treat reptiles or amphibians. As most advanced herpers know you can normaly diagnose your animals better then most vets can. Like I said I know a vet I can get the medicine from and I would attempt to treat them myself. I know it's risky but it's better then doing nothing. Thank you very much for any information you can provide for me.

I do have a basking light for them. Temp in the light is about 85. I do have a UV light for them I know about the vitamin D3 and how the light helps absorb the calcium. I did not know about the needed vitamin A. That is a lesson learned the hard way for me. A mistake that won't be made again. Snakes have always been my item of interest not turtles, I'm learning more about turtles as I go along. I have been looking for some vegetables high in vitamin A that is recomended for the turtles but they don't want to eat it (the ones not sick). I only hope that the turtle food that claims to be high in vitamin A is enough. I am cleaning the aquarium every two days putting fresh water.

The most common drug used for pneumonia is Baytril. I have a box turtle who in her first year here came down with a resp. infection after she sat in the cold rain all night last Oct. We used chloramphenicol on her & that worked out fabulously because it was strawberry flavored & she liked the way it tasted. Cleared her up in 10 days or so.
There are some other antibiotics that could be used but those are the only 2 that come to mind off the top of my head... and those are 2 that are very powerful & will usually work.

Foods that are high in vitamin A are dark leafy greens & yellow veggies like carrots & different squashes.
Feeder fish that have been well fed before the turtles eat them have a good amount of A in their liver. Liver is a meat that's high in A but feeding large amounts of organ meats to omnivore turtles can cause other health problems. It's better that they eat a whole live fish than just a chunk of liver.
Then of course gut loaded insects can help too, like crickets.
The pellet foods tend to have a lot of vitamins added, Reptomin, Mazuri for example.
Better to feed a wide variety of different foods than just a pellet all the time though.
btw before my herp vet moved here, I relied on vets who treat dogs & cats but were willing to help a herp. A vet is a vet, they're very educated doctors. I think sometimes people don't realize that they know what they're doing... they just need to be interested in going outside "the dog/cat box" to help you.
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PHRatz

Actually since these little guys are already in crisis it probably would be helpful to go ahead & feed them some beef liver right now if you can get them to eat it.
At a young age they're more likely to eat a meat that's high in A than a veggies that are high in A.
As long as they don't spend their whole lives eating a lot of beef liver but only did it now when they are in need.. it probably wouldn't hurt them in the long run.
Let us know what's happening with them as time goes by.
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PHRatz

Thank you very much for the advice. I went to two vets today. The first vet isn't in the office till friday. The second vet don't know anything about reptiles and didn't have the meds that you spoke of but he asked me if I knew of a reason that Amoxicillin wouldn't work. I didn't know he give me some and said to give it a try. I am suppose to give them each one drop (I'm sure one drop wouldn't be too much they will spit at least half that out) I assume once a day. I know I'm working in the dark but is there any reason that a turtle can't be given Amoxicillin? Thank you again for your help.

The only problem with amoxicillin is that it only treats Gram positive bacteria so if there's anything Gram negative happening, it won't work for them.
A lot of times vets will prescribe a penicillin with something like amikacin (for a reptile) to make sure all the bases are covered.
If on Friday you can get hold of the other vet you might could get something better.
How are they doing though? Are they any better yet?
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PHRatz

The turtles seem to be holding on fairly well. They seem to have much more energy then they did have before I started treating them. When I first started they were practicaly lethargic. Now they are fighting me viciously when I try to treat them (it was easier to treat them when they were not fighting). Plus the eyes seem to be less swolen but still not able to open them to see, other then one it can sometimes open its eyes slightly. I actually think they may be getting better (I hope). I will be changing their water again today. I personaly believe that changing the water and replacing it with fresh tap water could help with the bacteria. I know that clorine in water kills bacteria. I think that the little bit in the water has to be more harm to the bacteria then to the turtles. I don't think I will be able to get to the other vet friday I won't get off work in time. Plus I don't know that vet I just stopped in to talk to her. Odds are she will want to have me bring them for an office visit and xrays and the whole red tape thing. Thanks for your concern for them.

SLIM CHANCES!??!? WHAT!

Turtles can survive MANY illnesses if treated right and many horrible injuries, they're survivors!!

Never underestimate the healing abilities of chelons...

I've spent over $100 on a $15 RES who had shell rot down to the bone on her plastron...She dissapeared(long story)....i got her back...didnt keep her, she's in a pond now...Im glad I helped her infection..she's happy now

>>I've spent over $100 on a $15 RES who had shell rot down to the bone on her plastron...She dissapeared(long story)....i got her back...didnt keep her, she's in a pond now...Im glad I helped her infection..she's happy now

I babysat a young map turtle last summer with shell rot that was just horrible. The owner started treatment waaaaay too late IMO & then went on vacation. I followed all the vet's orders for 2 weeks. That included medication, daily medicated baths, daily cleaning of the tubs they stayed in.
The owner came back for the turtle & then somtime later it died.
I hope to never see one that bad again but I wonder what treatment worked for the one you took care of? I'd like to know just to keep the info in the files of my brain in case I ever see something that again.
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PHRatz

>>
I'd like to know just to keep the info in the files of my brain in case I ever see something LIKE that again.

Geeze I need a spell checker. lol
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PHRatz

you dont force feed it to them, you drip the oil into their eyes.

Thank you very much for your advice but when I drip the vitamin A in the mouth it gets on the eyes and all over the face. I have done some extentive research on this subject and I have found that the treatment would have been a vitamin A injection of at the very most 2,000 IU of vitamin A. The tablets are 8,000 IU per tablet so I'm sure that the one drop less what they spit out is much less then the maximum 2,000, so I don't have to worry about them dying from hypervitamintitus. I must force feed them to keep them alive if I don't then they will surely die. I also am giving them the antibiotics oraly. They have improved unbelievably in the past 48 hours so I think I will stick to the current treatment. My wife has even commented on how much better they are acting and looking. Thank you all again for all the advice I will definately keep you all posted of any progress or recession of their health.

Quick update. The turtle thats eyes was opening has started feeding on his own. I will give him the antibiotics for a few more days. The other turtles eyes swelling is going down but not opening yet. They are definately active though. One of them still seems worse then the other. Though they both have plenty of energy now.

>>Quick update. The turtle thats eyes was opening has started feeding on his own. I will give him the antibiotics for a few more days. The other turtles eyes swelling is going down but not opening yet. They are definately active though. One of them still seems worse then the other. Though they both have plenty of energy now.

This is really good news.
I'd keep up with the medication for at least a total of 10 days.
I agree with what you said about the fresh water. Clean fresh water is helpful to them. Any time a herp is sick a very clean environment is always a good thing.
Have you been able to get foods high in vitamin A into them yet?
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PHRatz

I finaly spoke with the herp vet who's office I visited. She is the vet at the Birmingham Zoo. She called me this morning and I told her about the herp society and she give me some great contacts to call to get that up and running. Then we talked about the turtles for a good hour and a half. She said that the Amoxicillin won't work for a respratory infection. The bacteria is a resistant type for penicillin type medicines. She said that she wouldn't even prescribe any medicine for them that with the proper diet they will most likely get well. And if they aren't well after they overcome the vitamin A problem then to call her and she will help to continue the treatment. She recomended that I give them chicken or beef baby food. Mix the gel cap contents with it, and to include some calcium supliment (which durring this force feeding process I had forgot about). To try to get as much of it in them as I can. To make sure they have at least 14 hours of UVB every day, and plenty of heat. I'm off to treat the turtles now. Then get ready for the Atlanta herp show tomorrow I'll be working at (if your around stop in and say hi I'll be at the Ga. society table). Thanks again for your concern I'll keep you posted.

Good deal. Glad you got hold of that herp vet.
I saw mine on Thurs & told her about the amoxicillin. She said the same thing, it's not going to help.
If you can build them up with proper diet.. that'd be wonderful.
Please do keep us updated on them.
Sounds like you're doing a very good job so far.
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PHRatz

Hello,
You can also try using Cod Liver oil, it has a ton of vitamin A in it. I use it for my sick tort and it was vet recommended.