Reptile & Amphibian Forums

http://home.earthlink.net/~fridjian/id21.html

I just spoke with Fred earlier on the phone today, and he is an authority on Kleinmanni as well as Werneri. He is convinced that the species exists, and there is an example of one on the website. The female I own is the second one he has ever seen in his life. They are extremely rare, and if you own one, consider yourself extremely lucky.

The seller of this tortoise mistakenly sold it to me as an Egyptian. Everyone CHECK YOUR TESTUDO KLEINMANNI now. If it does not have the black chevrons on the plastron, it is a WERNERI, which is far more rare than the typical kleinmanni.

Definately not a fact.

Many Egyptian tortoises from throughout their range do not have the chevrons.

There is a paper currently being written that will dispute the validity of T. werneri.

I don't believe it is a valid species based on the evidence provided.

>>http://home.earthlink.net/~fridjian/id21.html
>>
>>I just spoke with Fred earlier on the phone today, and he is an authority on Kleinmanni as well as Werneri. He is convinced that the species exists, and there is an example of one on the website. The female I own is the second one he has ever seen in his life. They are extremely rare, and if you own one, consider yourself extremely lucky.
>>
>>The seller of this tortoise mistakenly sold it to me as an Egyptian. Everyone CHECK YOUR TESTUDO KLEINMANNI now. If it does not have the black chevrons on the plastron, it is a WERNERI, which is far more rare than the typical kleinmanni.
-----
Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Jarmo Perala, Journal of Herptology, Volume 35, Issue 4.

Examination and analysis of over 140 specimens of the endangered tortoise Testudo kleinmanni from all areas within its historical distribution on mainland Africa and the Levant confirmed the existence of two allopatric species in this region. A new tortoise species, occurring east of the Nile delta, and restricted today to the Negev desert (Israel) and to northern Sinai (Egypt), is described. The new species has typically a rounded, considerably wide midbody and a very wide posterior carapace combined with very narrow vertebrals, a relatively modest elevation of the anterior plastron lobe, a gently sloping upper carapacial arch, which is posteriorly depressed, relatively flared, serrated edges of free marginals, a flared supracaudal in both sexes, usually not running in parallel with the posterior carapacial arch, and a short supracaudal in females, among other readily verifiable characteristics. Reflecting these relatively great differences in shell morphology, the new species differs from T. kleinmanni by 17 (male) and 18 (female) morphometric character ratios. The new species is additionally fully diagnosable by using Principal Component Analysis and Linear Discriminant Function Analysis with cross-validation. The previous lectotype designation for T. kleinmanni was not based on a syntype and is, therefore, invalid. A new lectotype is designated. Both species are endangered because of loss of habitat and other anthropogenic factors. The new species is additionally threatened by an introduction programme involving the release of confiscated T. kleinmanni into northern Sinai.

If you read the actual paper you will see that the number of caracters that differ and the extent at which those characters differ is slightly limited.

Most people agree that it does not warrant speciation.

>>Jarmo Perala, Journal of Herptology, Volume 35, Issue 4.
>>
>>Examination and analysis of over 140 specimens of the endangered tortoise Testudo kleinmanni from all areas within its historical distribution on mainland Africa and the Levant confirmed the existence of two allopatric species in this region. A new tortoise species, occurring east of the Nile delta, and restricted today to the Negev desert (Israel) and to northern Sinai (Egypt), is described. The new species has typically a rounded, considerably wide midbody and a very wide posterior carapace combined with very narrow vertebrals, a relatively modest elevation of the anterior plastron lobe, a gently sloping upper carapacial arch, which is posteriorly depressed, relatively flared, serrated edges of free marginals, a flared supracaudal in both sexes, usually not running in parallel with the posterior carapacial arch, and a short supracaudal in females, among other readily verifiable characteristics. Reflecting these relatively great differences in shell morphology, the new species differs from T. kleinmanni by 17 (male) and 18 (female) morphometric character ratios. The new species is additionally fully diagnosable by using Principal Component Analysis and Linear Discriminant Function Analysis with cross-validation. The previous lectotype designation for T. kleinmanni was not based on a syntype and is, therefore, invalid. A new lectotype is designated. Both species are endangered because of loss of habitat and other anthropogenic factors. The new species is additionally threatened by an introduction programme involving the release of confiscated T. kleinmanni into northern Sinai.
-----
Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Darrell Seneke from the WCT owns a female that is 7 inches long. Have you ever heard of a 7" kleinmanni female?

The bottom line is, WHATEVER this strange strain is, be it an entirely new species, or even a subspecies, this is something extremely rare and unusual.

>>Darrell Seneke from the WCT owns a female that is 7 inches long. Have you ever heard of a 7" kleinmanni female?

George Ullman had one that big (or nearly that large).

>>The bottom line is, WHATEVER this strange strain is, be it an entirely new species, or even a subspecies, this is something extremely rare and unusual.

I agree with EJ on this one. I saw HUNDREDS upon hundreds and owned over 100 T. Kleinmanni at one point and there was TONS of variability among them. I had some OLD tiny females, some much larger older females. Animals with and without any black on any part of their shells (carapace scute outline or plastron). I had some with shell flare around the marginal scutes near the back end and others with very little. I had some that were VERY orange overall (head, legs, shell)! Others that were solid cream or solid brown. Trust me, if I knew this would have ever been something of interest, I would have taken more pics! (and kept a bunch of what is being described as something 'new') D'oh...

I relate this to Elongata: I have Elongata that vary widely in size, color and even a bit in shape, but they are still I. elongata, not something new. I think it is possible that a subspecies 'could' be described IF the DNA supported it but not at all by the shell/shape/color at all. Again, they were not 'rare' when they were coming in by the boat-load. Unfortunately, I'm sure a lot of those animals passed away since then. Therefore, I'm not at all convinced this is a 'rare' locale or subspecies. I'm not an authority on the species, but have kept them for over 12 years now (and produced some) and I'd have to say in my experience, that I would find it hard to justify a new subspecies, let alone species. Just my observations and opinions.

Matt

See, the point is,

It really doesn't matter how common they were coming in to the US 100000000 years ago. Also, other than the characteristic black chevrons on the pectoral scutes on the plastron, none of these other color or size variations matter. The black chevrons are an important defining characteristic of this new species/subspecies. Also, sheer SIZE is an indicator of this species/subspecies. I bet you have never seen a 7" T. Kleinmanni with chevrons!

Jarmo Perala, the researcher that is convinced these two types of tortoises are indeed separate species, submitted his paper back in 2001, and it is now accepted by the IUCN. Anyone having taken an elementary biology course understands this as well. The Nile river split up the kleinmanni population over thousands, if not millions of years. Gradually, the kleinmanni on one side of the river had different adaptations for that particular environment.

Matt J, do you own any Egyptians? I would really like to have a conversation with you about these fascinating tortoises.

>>It really doesn't matter how common they were coming in to the US 100000000 years ago.

My point was that if SO many came in, it's not at all 'rare'. Not trying to make a contest out of this, just what I observed.

> Also, other than the characteristic black chevrons on the pectoral scutes on the plastron, none of these other color or size variations matter. The black chevrons are an important defining characteristic of this new species/subspecies.

That's where I completely disagree. The variability within I. elongata I feel is a prime example. I have torts that have NO black on the at all and other that are mostly black. Chevrobs on thr plastron in my opinion have nothing to do with the definition of a different species/subspecies.

> Also, sheer SIZE is an indicator of this species/subspecies. I bet you have never seen a 7" T. Kleinmanni with chevrons!

I think EJ hit it on the head: I've never seen a male that would compare and captivity can do 'strange' things to torts, like make them grow to monstrous sizes!

>>The Nile river split up the kleinmanni population over thousands, if not millions of years. Gradually, the kleinmanni on one side of the river had different adaptations for that particular environment.

Sounds reasonable to me, but the proof in my opinion will be in DNA, not color or chevrons.

>>Matt J, do you own any Egyptians? I would really like to have a conversation with you about these fascinating tortoises.

Yes, since 1993?! I need to check my records for exact dates.

Matt

How large is your group? Have you had success with breeding?

I made mention in a previous post:

>>How large is your group?

It used to be pretty large. Now, I keep 3.2 CBB and 0.2 WC.

>> Have you had success with breeding?

Yes, but it was limited in the first couple years. I think we produced a total (small handful) of 5 viable offspring (had lots of eggs). Then, the breeders pretty much called it quits over the coming years. So, we were not hugely sucessful, but did have actual breeding and egg laying. Now I'm waiting on my 12 year old CBB adults to hopefully produce 'true' F2 offspring one of these years. They go through the motions, but I've not had any eggs deposited to date from the females.

Matt

One must ask ones self"what is the advantage of chevrons in the strategy for survival". late night thoughts of a tortoise keeper reading this stuff at 3AM. vic

Vic! You gotta lay off the NyQuil late at night man...

I personally wonder why the torts like Chevron and not BP or Mobile?!?! Why Chevron?!

Matt

>>One must ask ones self"what is the advantage of chevrons in the strategy for survival". late night thoughts of a tortoise keeper reading this stuff at 3AM. vic
>>

As it turns out Darrell and I believe his Egyptian tortoise is the very same individual tht Mr. Ulman had which came to Darrell in a very round about way. I've yet to get pictures of it which I'm dieing to do. Mr. Ulman used to get a kick out of me asking to see it whenever I showed up at the Orlando show. He brought it with him to at least 3 shows.

Another note. This large size usually shows up in females only in the species that it has been observed. Show me a male of as proportionately a large size and I might rethink my stand.

>>>>Darrell Seneke from the WCT owns a female that is 7 inches long. Have you ever heard of a 7" kleinmanni female?
>>
>>George Ullman had one that big (or nearly that large).
>>
>>>>The bottom line is, WHATEVER this strange strain is, be it an entirely new species, or even a subspecies, this is something extremely rare and unusual.
>>
>>I agree with EJ on this one. I saw HUNDREDS upon hundreds and owned over 100 T. Kleinmanni at one point and there was TONS of variability among them. I had some OLD tiny females, some much larger older females. Animals with and without any black on any part of their shells (carapace scute outline or plastron). I had some with shell flare around the marginal scutes near the back end and others with very little. I had some that were VERY orange overall (head, legs, shell)! Others that were solid cream or solid brown. Trust me, if I knew this would have ever been something of interest, I would have taken more pics! (and kept a bunch of what is being described as something 'new') D'oh...
>>
>> I relate this to Elongata: I have Elongata that vary widely in size, color and even a bit in shape, but they are still I. elongata, not something new. I think it is possible that a subspecies 'could' be described IF the DNA supported it but not at all by the shell/shape/color at all. Again, they were not 'rare' when they were coming in by the boat-load. Unfortunately, I'm sure a lot of those animals passed away since then. Therefore, I'm not at all convinced this is a 'rare' locale or subspecies. I'm not an authority on the species, but have kept them for over 12 years now (and produced some) and I'd have to say in my experience, that I would find it hard to justify a new subspecies, let alone species. Just my observations and opinions.
>>
>>Matt
>>
-----
Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

I've been aware of Darrells tortoise for close to 10 years now. (he's only had it a year or two) It is a remarkable animal. Peter Pritchard originally called that animal T. kleinmanni.

You do have to understand that there is gigantism in most species.

I know of a few P. planicauda that are over 9 inches long and over 1kg in weight.

You can't base a species on size.

It does seem to be unusual but it is not rare.

>>Darrell Seneke from the WCT owns a female that is 7 inches long. Have you ever heard of a 7" kleinmanni female?
>>
>>The bottom line is, WHATEVER this strange strain is, be it an entirely new species, or even a subspecies, this is something extremely rare and unusual.
-----
Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care