Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey guys. Does anyone here know if these are from pure Splendida bloodlines???

I bring this up because they look - to me at least, like they have something (cal king maybe) mixed in..... Compaired to good old fashioned Spendida, these are not the best looking examples by a long shot...

I own a pair of hets. produced by Don Shores this year and love them. I just saw his ad in the classifieds for some and wanted to see if anyone can shed light on this..

byron.d

But ask Don Shores about the history of them.

The axanthic part did not come from cal kings, as there hasn't been a axanthic cal king as of yet, or at least I'm not aware of any or seen any proof of any.

Mine look just like splendidas, only "bluish"

Kerby...
-----
Lonesome Valley Reptiles
www.lonesomevalleyreptiles.com
Specializing In California Kingsnakes

Hi Kerby

I don't know anything about the axanthic splendidas but, if I remember corretly, I used to see the "axanthic" cal kings in Lloyd Lemke's pricelists in the mid 90's. My friend and I actually bought a trio of really small hatchlings of these axanthic cal kings in the IRBA Show in the San Jose Fairgrounds(here in NorCal) in '96(maybe '97). Those animals resembled axanthic brooksi in color but with the typical calking banding. I was not sure if she was pure cal kings or not though. They weren't real robust animals and they had a really hard time thriving. Between my friend and I, none survived. I'm not sure if this line has survived after Lloyd's passing but they may be still out there. Just letting you know. Take care.
-----
Jonel M. Lopez

www.spsnakes.com

I've got a price list from Lloyd Lemke from 1997 that I picked up from him at the San Diego IRBA show and they aren't listed on them. I know he didn't have any at his table in Oct '97.

Since then the Internet and Kingsnake.com has grown and I don't recall anyone posting a pic of one? Out of all the kingsnake books I haven't seen a picture either.

Anyone have a picture of an adult axanthic or anery cal king?

Kerby...
-----
Lonesome Valley Reptiles
www.lonesomevalleyreptiles.com
Specializing In California Kingsnakes

These are the real deal. The pic shows some normals mixed in with the anery/axanthics.

The axanthic splendida look suspiciously like the same gene thats in the axanthic brooksi kings. Anyone else notice this?

Has this line gone???? I emailed you about these axanthic Cal Kings awhile back...

Are they still around???

I was hoping you'd chime in on this.

byron.d

The guy that has them did not sell any this season. He will have them for $600. each next year.

WOops. I meant $600. a PAIR, not each.

Rainer. do you know where this line comes from?? from the photo you posted, they look like the real deal to me.

I few years ago a hiker / nature photographer had posted a photo of what I would swear to be an axanthic Cal king. This guy had no agenda and wasn't even into snakes. for that matter, the only reason I ever saw the photo was because I was working in the industry (photography) and this guys work came across my desk. Anyway, he just thought the snake was cool looking - he actually photographed it with another Cal king that was under the same debris and there is a very obvious difference between the two.

I hate to even bring this photo up because I dont have it, but it's also important to note that these could very well exist in the wild..

Man I would love to get into some of this, but the price out of my range.... Then again, albino Cals were once $400.oo each......

thanks agian.

byron.d

Rainer,

does he have pics of the adults?

I am assuming that he would be breeding them to other recessive genes in cal kings?

Thanks

Kerby...
-----
Lonesome Valley Reptiles
www.lonesomevalleyreptiles.com
Specializing In California Kingsnakes

Very interesting. Now, where is this taken from? Whose cal kings are these?
-----
Genesis 1:1

Those don't look like the ones Lloyd had, patternwise. Lloyd's were pictured in the Vivarium with the full spread showing all the Cal King morphs and natural morphs. I have the issue but no scanner. I really couldn't say from the pic (of Lloyd's) if they were really axanthic but I assume Lloyd was knowledgable enough to know for sure. They were wide banded classic desert phase.
I do not know what happened to them but I do know that after Lloyd won his lawsuit against CA F&G they refused to renew his CA Breeders Permit and he stopped offering native CA stuff, other than albinos.

The original ones I've seen originated from Tucson king (splendida x californae) and west TX splendida adults (NY/CT origin).

PB

PB,
Can you tell us who they originated from or when you saw them first?

Steve Garnett hatched the first axanthic splendida (as well as the first axanthic brooksi) that I'd ever seen. The adults were purchased in the early '90s from Jim Micillinio (not sure of spelling), a Vet who was active in the Southern New England Herp Assoc. (CT). Jim told me that one of the adults was from the Tucson area, and that the other was from TX.

Steve produced two female axanthics. I believe the first one went to Bob Deptula. I got the second one. I eventually passsed mine on to Bobby Suza. Greg MacCullah (I'm butchering the spelling) also had one. Not sure where he got it, but I'm pretty sure it also originated from Steve's original female.

Steve also produced the first axanthic Brooksi I'd ever seen. The original animals were obtained from Bill Perron. I believe the parent stock was from Brooks canal in S FL. Steve's original stock went to Steve Fuller & eventually became the NE strain.

Paul B

Wow Paul,

Thats some great history. Really worth keeping and documenting.

So where is Steve Garnett today and what is he doing?

Thanks,

Rainer

Steve's still around, just not as active in the hobby as he used to be.

Hi in 2000 I bought a pair of Axanthic Splendida hets at the Whiteplains show, NY from Bob Deptula (hes from CT). He didnt have any local info or origin on them. I raised them and bred and the hatchlings all came out axanthic. At the time I was pretty much focusing on high yellow and hypo splendida and didnt find the axanthics(in my opinion) all that attractive and sold off the adult het pair and hatchlings. I think Don Shores also bred some and may have some history on them. Now I wish I kept at least one pair of hatchlings. sorry I couldnt provide any more info. dave Flanagan

I have axanthics from 2 different people. One line came from Bob Deptula and the other line from another person. The second line can't be mistaken for cal kings but the first line looks like it could be. I was told they came from wild caught splendida caught in south eastern Az. Here is one from the second line.

Hey Don...can I trade you my candy cane for that?
-----
Genesis 1:1

here is another axanthic splendida from normal adults that ended up being hets.

Well, it funny how I posted a couple of pictures and nobody wants to speak out about the line. Guess no one cares.

Let me be the first to say that those are some stunning snakes, and that I myself do appreciate the info you've provided.

I cant wait till the hets. I got from you are ready to breed.

The hypo Splendida I got from you is growing like a weed!!

thanks again.

byron.d

I think the pics probably settled the issue here and now. No way you can mistake those for anything else other than pure splendida.

-----
Genesis 1:1

Billy,

I will make you a thousand dollar bet.

I will breed an axantrhic brooks to a splendida. Thn raise up the parents offspring and breed them back togteher.

I bet that some of those will come out exactly like the ones pictured.

My point? My point is that you cannot tell from "looking" at them and say case closed. The only thing we have to rely on is honest detailed history on where and who bred these for the fist time with names and collection dates. After the facts have been presented it is up to the individual to determine the truth of the matter as it makes most sense to them. You or knowbody can christened these as real (or not) and say end of story, case closed. LOL!

On a second not it makes no difference to me if they are hybridized or not. I like them and want to get some just the way they are. My opinion is also no reflection on Don Shores. Just a fact of this hobby that hybridization is real and easy to mask. I hope that interested parties don't take this way, that way or any other way.

"I will make you a thousand dollar bet.
I will breed an axantrhic brooks to a splendida. Thn raise up the parents offspring and breed them back togteher.
I bet that some of those will come out exactly like the ones pictured."

I will give you a thousand dollars NOT to do just that!! LOL!

Honestly, who knows what exactly the offspring would look like?
I agree, the only thing we do have to really go on is history. To the knowledge of all whot is involved in this, these are real splendida. It is reassuring however that these splendida, with their pattern, look more like real splendida than most of what I see for sale as splendida, as integration with cal kings is really visual with some bloodlines. In other words, if I was going to buy one and wanted the real thing, their appearance does somewhat help.
-----
Genesis 1:1

I did not say that breeding them with cal king would make a F2 gen look like that. But crossing them with brooksi (floridana) would.

The axanthic gene found in floridana looks just like that of these splendida. But i am not saying the similar appearance of the axanthic gene raises doubts. But any floridana bred to a splendida and then the F1 bred back will produce animals that look identical to splendida. Breeding a cal king to a splendida would bring the "look" further apart apart IMO.

"The axanthic gene found in floridana looks just like that of these splendida."

I agree!

"But any floridana bred to a splendida and then the F1 bred back will produce animals that look identical to splendida."

If that is true, which it may be, then it would make it much more difficult for people wanting pure axanthic splendida to actually own the real thing, since the market would then have those snakes in existence and then the risk of those being sold without the history being known, told, or both, is high.

Are you keeping splendida at the time? I only have 1, but may be interested in either a hypo or axanthic in the future. They really are neat animals.
-----
Genesis 1:1

I think when you start questioning the genetics of an animal it puts the question mark on that morph. How would you feel if people brought up hybrids when you were coming out with new brooks morphs like peanut butter brooks and jelly brooks.

Posted by: don shores at Thu Nov 9 18:08:28 2006 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

I think when you start questioning the genetics of an animal it puts the question mark on that morph. How would you feel if people brought up hybrids when you were coming out with new brooks morphs like peanut butter brooks and jelly brooks.

Don,

People HAVE questioned the PB morphs. This forum is a place for such debate. Sorry I did not mean to step on your toes. Besiders a post before this you were dissapointed knowbody said anything about your pic. Did you just expect us to Ohh and AHH and have no intelligent dicussion?

When people questioned the Peanut Butter morphs and other new morphs I have I gave the history. The PB morph is also the first codom king, so its in a class of its own (meaning it could not have borrowed genes). But other morphs of mine and other peoples have been discussed here.

Thats what we do on these forums and what they are for. Thees forums, at there best, are a place for both novice and expert alike to obtain FACTS which will help further their own herpetological efforts.

At least you should be happy that these snakes are being mentioned and that they are getting the attention they need. Did you expect that all snakes be accepted as pure just because a breeder says so? Because many a breeder, who has been more prolific than you, has unkowningly sold the herp world fake-hybridized morphs because of shady backround. Today, some of these morphs have been responsible for the decline in the colubrid market that we presently have today.

IMO your axanthic and other splendida morphs will either rise in popularity or fall because they did not stand up to the scrutiny of others. If they are pure (uncrossed)locale kings, then you have nothing to worry about or hide.

Rainer, as in what I already posted, I said that some of my adults came from Bob Deptula, which has been verified that he had them and he told me that they came from someone who bred a wildcaught from az to a wildcaught from Texas. Nowhere close to where brooks are from. I really think I have been honest on where they came from to the best of my knowledge. The other line I have, have come from someone different, which I haven't said who because I still get their babies from them. I will tell where they came from probably this year. Also I think any snake linebred to another different snake, after many breedings will soon take on the characteristics of the second snake from line breeding the babies. I assume all snakes are hybrids if you want to take it that far over hundreds or thousands of years.