Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Some dealers will do anything to make a buck, including selling snakes to individuals that have no experience with any exotic venomous snakes and just a few months experience with Rattlesnakes & Copperheads. Had the dealer (Yes, I know who it is but they deny it) took a few minute to talk to this kid he would have realized that he was not a good candidate for any Hot snake. In this case this 20yr old male smuggles home an Banded Egyptian Cobra purchased at the Hamburg show (legally) and told his parents it was a "Corn Snake". He was keeping it in a 30 Gal aquarium with a screened top in his room. The house is shared with his parents and 7 yr old brother. This was a "Train Wreck" in progress, that was avoided by the parents having the snake removed from the house.

Al
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Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

and I'll say it again. Most dealers don't give a damn about anything but money. I've seen some of the most REPUTABLE and POPULAR dealers at the Hamburg show (and in here) sell hots to kids that have absolutely no business keeping them. It's ridiculous. Any time I've ever bought a snake from Hamburg, I was NEVER asked about experience or whether or not it was legal to keep them where I live. But, I always made it a point to provide my license and have them take down certain info. It's getting to be fair game at that show and anything goes just because it's in a state where there are no restrictions. Give it a little time, and that will go to. Since the vendors don't care, neither will the politician's.

Personally, it blows me away that it is even legal to sell venomous snakes/herps at shows like Hamburg and others all over the U.S. These "impulse buy shows" are pretty scary because the breeders are there for one thing and that is to make a quick buck. With competition being so fierce, most will forego common sense and any form of ethics in order to not lose a potential customer. Here in Illinois we had a kid purchase a decent sized gaboon viper from the Hamburg Show w/NO ID or driver's license and brought it back to Chicago where he kept it in a glass tank and screen lid....in a one bedroom apartment with five small children! While I will always defend our rights to own venomous herps, I will not defend the ineptitude and process that we follow to sell "merchandise". There has to be a better way to monitor how people acquire these animals. I have many ideas but most will be logistically and economically difficult for those agencies who would have to supervise it.

Frightening stuff.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center

>>and I'll say it again. Most dealers don't give a damn about anything but money. I've seen some of the most REPUTABLE and POPULAR dealers at the Hamburg show (and in here) sell hots to kids that have absolutely no business keeping them. It's ridiculous. Any time I've ever bought a snake from Hamburg, I was NEVER asked about experience or whether or not it was legal to keep them where I live. But, I always made it a point to provide my license and have them take down certain info. It's getting to be fair game at that show and anything goes just because it's in a state where there are no restrictions. Give it a little time, and that will go to. Since the vendors don't care, neither will the politician's.
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Some dealers will do anything to make a buck,
>true

including selling snakes to individuals that have no experience with any exotic venomous snakes and just a few months experience with Rattlesnakes & Copperheads.

>Someone already keeps at least one hot and the dealer shouldn't sell to them?

Had the dealer (Yes, I know who it is but they deny it)

> What's to deny? selling a snake at a show to someone who is 20 years old in a state where it's legal?

took a few minute to talk to this kid he would have realized that he was not a good candidate for any Hot snake. In this case this 20yr old male smuggles home

> smuggles? unless he crossed into a state where it was illegal that isn't smuggling. It's purchasing.

an Banded Egyptian Cobra purchased at the Hamburg show (legally) and told his parents it was a "Corn Snake".

> Yes, this was wrong. I'll get back to this in a minute.

He was keeping it in a 30 Gal aquarium with a screened top in his room.

> I have a pair of pigmys, and three baby cottons in tanks with screened lids at this very moment.

The house is shared with his parents and 7 yr old brother.

> So people with kids shouldn't keep hots?

This was a "Train Wreck" in progress, that was avoided by the parents having the snake removed from the house.

> The train wreck you speak of is NOT the dealers fault, it's the person who lied about what species he had.

The ONLY thing wrong with this scenario is that a dangerous situation is created because the people living in the house with him that didn't know the animal was dangerous. That is a Bad thing, but do not fault the dealer for this. Do not fault the system for this. Do not fault anyone but the person who lied. Once you purchase an animal (or anything, gun, knife, or microwave oven) you are responsible for what you do with it.

The show was not bad.
The snake was not bad.
The dealer was not bad.
The purchase was not bad.
The caging was not bad.
The house it was kept in was not bad.
The LIE WAS BAD

Sounds like you need to take your blinders off. Sure, falsifying information is bad; plain and simple. At the same time, stricter controls and background checks by vendors and show organizers are absolutely vital if this hobby is going to continue. Many of us see first hand at the unscrupulinous (don't think that's a word but you get the understanding) of breeders....not ALL breeders, some breeders but enough to give me great cause for concern. Unless I'm an idiot (and I've been told that on more than one occasion) I can't imagine that you would go to a gun show and after answering a couple of simple questions walk about with a brand new loaded gun. yes, it's apples to oranges but they're both fruits that can kill and should be treated similarly. If I had a neighbor who was keeping a cobra in his bedroom with other people living in the same house I would have a very, very serious concern with that. The ONLY thing that is NOT at fault is the animal.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center

>>Some dealers will do anything to make a buck,
>>>true
>>
>>including selling snakes to individuals that have no experience with any exotic venomous snakes and just a few months experience with Rattlesnakes & Copperheads.
>>
>>>Someone already keeps at least one hot and the dealer shouldn't sell to them?
>>
>>Had the dealer (Yes, I know who it is but they deny it)
>>
>>> What's to deny? selling a snake at a show to someone who is 20 years old in a state where it's legal?
>>
>> took a few minute to talk to this kid he would have realized that he was not a good candidate for any Hot snake. In this case this 20yr old male smuggles home
>>
>>> smuggles? unless he crossed into a state where it was illegal that isn't smuggling. It's purchasing.
>>
>>an Banded Egyptian Cobra purchased at the Hamburg show (legally) and told his parents it was a "Corn Snake".
>>
>>> Yes, this was wrong. I'll get back to this in a minute.
>>
>>He was keeping it in a 30 Gal aquarium with a screened top in his room.
>>
>>> I have a pair of pigmys, and three baby cottons in tanks with screened lids at this very moment.
>>
>>The house is shared with his parents and 7 yr old brother.
>>
>>> So people with kids shouldn't keep hots?
>>
>>This was a "Train Wreck" in progress, that was avoided by the parents having the snake removed from the house.
>>
>>> The train wreck you speak of is NOT the dealers fault, it's the person who lied about what species he had.
>>
>>The ONLY thing wrong with this scenario is that a dangerous situation is created because the people living in the house with him that didn't know the animal was dangerous. That is a Bad thing, but do not fault the dealer for this. Do not fault the system for this. Do not fault anyone but the person who lied. Once you purchase an animal (or anything, gun, knife, or microwave oven) you are responsible for what you do with it.
>>
>>The show was not bad.
>>The snake was not bad.
>>The dealer was not bad.
>>The purchase was not bad.
>>The caging was not bad.
>>The house it was kept in was not bad.
>>The LIE WAS BAD
>>
>>
-----
Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Greed?
My table was one of the only tables at the south carolina show without a snake on it! why? I don't sell snakes. I will give away or trade my extra offspring though. I dang sure support the right of everyone on this forum to legally and responsibly own a venomous snake though.

What you're essentially saying is that the car dealer should be responsible for the bad driver, the gun dealer should be responsible for the drive by shooter, and the liquor store should be responsible for the drunk driver, and society should control the individual in an orwellian utopia where big brother takes care of you and there is no responsibility for one's own actions.

Yes, I fully support that jerk's right to buy a venomous snake because when you take away that right from him you take away that right from me. He was old enough to buy it, he already owned at least one animal already, and what he did after the show was his own business.

I think anyone should be allowed to own any animal and if it mauls your behind then you got what you asked for.

Background checks by vendors?! lol, that's funny.

You say "I can't imagine that you would go to a gun show and after answering a couple of simple questions walk about with a brand new loaded gun" -- yes it happens at every gun show. Thanks to our right to bear arms. I also grew up with guns. I got my first rifle when I was six years old. My father took the time to teach me to use it and guess what, I've never pointed a firearm at a single person.

Bottom line -- any danger was created by the actions of the individual. It was not created by the dealer. A dealer cannot police someone's actions after they leave the show.

Thanks,
Chad Minter
Author
Venomous Snakes of the Southeast
http://www.envenomated.com

Venomous snakes are far less dangerous than guns. Guns can kill someone driving by your house, walking down the block, on the other side of a wall, etc, and they kill a lot more people a lot more often. You do not help your cause by comparing venomous snakes with something that is, in reality, far far worse. I say stop making waves and wash your spinach. No offence, but realistically, that is about the same level of danger.

you say "Venomous snakes are far less dangerous than guns. Guns can kill someone driving by your house, walking down the block, on the other side of a wall, etc, and they kill a lot more people a lot more often. "

GUNS DO NOT KILL PEOPLE! They don't drive by your house. They don't walk down the block, they don't hide on the other side of the wall.

That's my enitre point! PEOPLE kill people. Guns do not kill people.

Guns are not inherently bad
Venomous snakes are not inherently bad

Ok, look at ANYTHING ---- computers... computers can be wonderful tools used by great scientists to create wonderful things. the same computer can be used by awful criminals to commit terrible crimes. Do you blame the computer store for the identity thief? do you give the nobel prize to the high school kid at best buy who sold Brian Fry his computer? You give credit where credit is due and blame where blame is due.

The DEALER did nothing wrong.

The LIAR did.

Blame the person responsible.

Are you suggesting personal responsibility and accountability and being responsible for your own actions? Some people fear that cat out of the bag more than just about anything else in this big ol’ dangerous world. What can you do to fight that?

...the man...

finally,

someone who isn't fooled by the "blame game",

I completely agree with you Chad...

your post is much needed...

Steve

Just because it is legal doesn't mean it is right. The laws on venomous reptiles are (thankfully) very lax in some areas... You use a gun example, but gun laws are VERY VERY mature in the legislation compared to the laws regulating venomous reptiles (lets face it, many states "reptile" laws were writtin with mammals in mind).

Lets put it on a level playing field... No matter what laws are in place, no matter how you feel about the issue: What the vendor did is the equivalent of selling a firearm to a child.

I'm not saying if it's legal it's right. I'm not saying if it's illegal it's wrong.

I'm not saying dealers don't do stupid things. I've personally seen and verbally admonished dealers for selling hots to minors, telling a college aged kid but obvious non-herper that a black and white spitter is 'a great first hot' and a few other stupid moves.

I'm basing my reply on the information given in the post.

If someone wanted a venomous snake from me, I've always followed this rule of thumb:

If it is 1. legal for them to own 2. do they already own at least one venomous snake 3. can they tell me the latin name and what antivenin is used for the bite of that particular animal.

If all three of those fall into place, then sure, I would have sold that guy a snake. From Al's post it sounds like he would have easily walked away from any table with a snake.

My point is that no *thing* is inherently good or bad and no *thing* is worthy of banning.

a rock on the ground
can be polished and made into jewelry
can be thrown as a weapon

marijuana
can be used to treat glaucoma in aids patients
can be used to intoxicate

alcohol
can be used to sterilize for life saving surgery
can be used to incapacitate a girlfriend for date=rape

any *thing* becomes bad only with one's unskillful thoughts, actions, words, intentions.

and even if it were illegal, do you think that would have stopped that particular person from getting one? no, it might have made it a little more difficult, but like the carter-era bumper stickers... "When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns."

Banning hots will only punish the keepers who follow the laws. The keepers willing to break the law will still have the snakes.

The kid who lied had the bad thoughts, bad intentions, bad actions, and bad words. The dealer did not, so why make him out to be the bad guy?

Chad

by the way, bobby, when the heck are you gonna get out this way and do some herpin with me?

I honestly believe that if *you* saw a vendor doing something like that that you'd speak up. However you are a responsible keeper of venomous reptiles.

All in all it is a bad situation and I think part of difference in opinions seen here are largely semantic based as mentioned. I don't think anyone here is saying that venomous should be banned, but many are saying (including myself) that if more people don't start taking this hobby (and a way of life for many of us) seriously it's going to ruin it for everybody. I think we all can think up of examples where animals were sold to people who didn't have the proper experience. If the buyer lied to the vendor then that is one thing, but if the buyer was obviously not suited to keep the animal then we are talking about a whole different situation.

We all hate to see situations like this.

As a sidenote, hopefully I'll make it out to that part of the country sometime and do some herping... I've been spending a lot of time over here and have herped this state all over and have herped texas quite a few times now, have poked around in FL, but haven't so much as shook a stick at a snake in Georgia. It's horrible when life gets in the way of herping!

indeed you are right.

Let me know when you're ready.

I won't even complain if you call the canebrakes we find timbers :-p

hahahahahahahahahah! good one!

Randal

Randal,

Just to clarify, I didn't mean that as a quip, as much as an assurance that I wouldn't be pig headed. I really would like to meet bobby and herp with him.

I meant it! LOL!~ Bobby "still" doesn't get it! In Arkansas, we call them Canebreaks. Now them college educated boys like Bobby calls them Timbers! LOL!

Bobby and I are very good friends and he'll be working my show this weekend in San Antonio. Hope to see eveyone there!

Randal Berry

Chad, I do hear what you are saying and perhaps using the word "greed" was a bit strong but since I've been to these shows, I've experienced these shows, I've seen with my own eyes the kind of crap that goes on "under the table" and am I just left there dumbfounded by the almighty $$$ blurring our good judgement.

Having seen the same 'ol crap time in and time out at some of these shows I have come to the conclusion (and this is simply my opinion) that venomous herps should probably not be sold at shows unless BETTER PROCEDURES are put in place and enforced. I apologize for my ignorance on the gun comment....I'm naive when it comes to purchasing hand guns (but that is equally scary). There are too many lying customers willing to do anything to buy that cute little cobra in a deli cup and there are far too many shady dealers/breeders who will turn their head to good judgement and sell that cobra to a kid who they probably know is not on the up and up...it happens and there's no disputing it. Yes, there are some wonderfully honest, hard working, "do it the right way" breeders but they seem to be too far and few in between....hopefully, that will change.

I don't think you and I are that far apart in our stance....I believe in an individual's right to own herps (and own "arms" including venomous but there has to be a better system in place to prevent these types of events from occurring.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center

>>Greed?
>>My table was one of the only tables at the south carolina show without a snake on it! why? I don't sell snakes. I will give away or trade my extra offspring though. I dang sure support the right of everyone on this forum to legally and responsibly own a venomous snake though.
>>
>>What you're essentially saying is that the car dealer should be responsible for the bad driver, the gun dealer should be responsible for the drive by shooter, and the liquor store should be responsible for the drunk driver, and society should control the individual in an orwellian utopia where big brother takes care of you and there is no responsibility for one's own actions.
>>
>>Yes, I fully support that jerk's right to buy a venomous snake because when you take away that right from him you take away that right from me. He was old enough to buy it, he already owned at least one animal already, and what he did after the show was his own business.
>>
>>I think anyone should be allowed to own any animal and if it mauls your behind then you got what you asked for.
>>
>>Background checks by vendors?! lol, that's funny.
>>
>>You say "I can't imagine that you would go to a gun show and after answering a couple of simple questions walk about with a brand new loaded gun" -- yes it happens at every gun show. Thanks to our right to bear arms. I also grew up with guns. I got my first rifle when I was six years old. My father took the time to teach me to use it and guess what, I've never pointed a firearm at a single person.
>>
>>Bottom line -- any danger was created by the actions of the individual. It was not created by the dealer. A dealer cannot police someone's actions after they leave the show.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Chad Minter
>>Author
>>Venomous Snakes of the Southeast
>>http://www.envenomated.com
-----
Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

I agree with Chad completly, there already enough laws on the books way to many. What that guy(the buyer) did is called reckless endangerment. Ive stood at the hamburg show and watched morons buy hots, sometimes yes dealers do throw out judgement but sometimes they dont. I watched a good friend of mine refuse a sale to one moron who wanted and cobra years ago. The guy had never owned a hot and wanted to know if he could tame it and handle it with welding gloves. my buddy refused the sale did everything he could to talk some sense into the guy. The buyer went onto a dealer two tables down pulled the same thing once again was refused, by this time he figured out to shut it with the "can I tame it" talk and just buy what he wanted about 3hrs later he comes back through with a cobra, the price label on the tube told us where it came from we talked to that dealer and he was upset when he found out how stupid this buyer was. He had no idea because when the guy just came to him he had figured out to lie and say he had experiance, Was it the dealers fault? no because the moron honed his bullsh^t skills enough till he got to the third dealer to talk a good game. my point is that any kind of control/system in place ONLY enables and empowers big brother it doesnt do any of us any good. the person who started this thread spoke of a young kid if that kid had gotten nailed why not make use of the laws already on the books. They can take manslaughter and just about any other charge and apply it to just about any situation where someone dies(drunk driver kill and inocent person etc) let that happen once to some moron who keeps a cobra in a 10gal and their 5yr old brother get killed and attitudes will change. People will think twice about thier stupidity when they have something ligit to fear but check sytems at shows all it does is empower big brother and just like any other system people will find away around it,

on the flip side growing up in PA I also seen were stupidity got inocent people hurt, a guy I knew named Vance had a large collection he was a teenager at the time, lied to his parents and kept small copperheads(he wasnt allowed to own hots, parents rule) one got loose got into his brothers shoe under his bed, brother reached in to get his shoes one morning before school got
nailed in the finger he was envenomated good, Vance got the beating of a life time from his father got to pay all medical bills and I dont remeber what else as this was 14yrs or so ago but was in a crap load of trouble but my point is his parents did their job and I dont think he ever so much as broke curfew again much less endangered someone like that, granted this was a case of parents actually doing their job but on the same token far to often parents dont and just like this people can make the laws do their job so again my point is there is already enough laws on the books for anything and everything we humans can possibly conjure up to do, people need to make the laws work instead of making more
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Jason & Christina
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Classic Dums frozen feeders

that is the biggest load of $#$@ I have ever heard. First off a license is required by law to drive a vehicle, background checks are required by law and there is a legal drinking age and violations of all of these get you thrown in jail. States with no regulation on venomous, large constrictors and other exotics are just slow to adopting them and believe me they will all have regulations eventually and they SHOULD. I believe everyone should have the oppertunity to own a cobra if they have the proper training, equipment, and housing but it is not a RIGHT. nowhere in the constitution does it say we have the RIGHT to own venomous reptiles, burmese pythons, or tigers. You want to say that a cobra in an aquarium with a screen lid isn't a threat to the public, tell that to all the people that have to worry about cobra's around homestead, florida. Any snake that has the possibility to kill someone should be in a properly locked cage and there should be a government agency that is allowed to inspect to make sure you are abiding by the rules set forth to own one. If you house them properly, handle them properly and feed them properly, you have nothing to fear about regulating the ownership of venomous. Remember, regulation is much better than banning. States that don't regulate will eventually ban them and that is a FACT.

disclaimer::: I do not own venomous at the moment but have owned my fair share up until a few years ago so I do speak from experience with hots.
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Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons:::

1.0 striped vanilla
1.0 spider
1.2 Citrus Ghost and hets
1.2 Albino and hets
2.3 het Pied
0.6 50% poss het pied
1.1 Pastel (male has additional gene going on with him)
a bunch of normal female breeders
a bunch of normal female holdbacks and several rescued normal males

0.1 columbian boa, she's a feeding monster, controls my
over production of rats, lol
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa, another rat eating monster
1.1 corns

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

Hi Chad:

Thanks for your reply.

I do see your points but the dealer is the first line of defense insuring that the prospective keeper is qualified. Yes, it was a legal transaction. Was the kid qualified? Holy cow no! If a few minutes were taken to chat with him it would have been very evident he had not clue about taking care of any snake, no less a venomous one.

On many Herp sites, there are a few 15 yr olds who I consider qualified to keep this snake, Phillip on the SHHS site for instance, you know why? Not because they have a vast amount of Elapid experience but they are STUDENTS of Herpetology, they're BOOK SMART, that compensates somewhat for their lack of hands on experience. The kid in question has NO real knowledge of snakes, venomous or not. I figured this out after 10 minutes with him at my facility. Why did'nt the dealer figure this out and be a responsable ADULT and not sell him the animals. Other dealers do it, why not this guy? This is not the first time he's shown a disregard for others. I witnessed him trying to sell some guy two snakes off his table, a EA Green Mamba & A Temple Phase Waglers. The guy asked, "What was the difference in the consequences from a bite by each." I stepped in and told him NOT to sell anything to the guy if he did not know that basic difference.

I have the snake at my facility till I can get it to a zoo who will buy it for the $250 the kid paid for it. I am planning to donate the $250.00 to the local ASPCA in his name if his parents agree and not return it to him, just to buy another snake at next months Hamburg show. He needs to pay a price for this situation, so I won't reward him for being stupid and putting his family at risk by buying it in the first place, nor will I reward him for lying to his parents.

If we don't self-regulate and take a stand on stupidity whether it's a 20 yr old who lies about their qualifications or a 35 yr old dealer who doesn't care who ends up with the Hot snake and what happens to them or the people they live with, this hobby WILL be regulated by the government, just like the several that Hot keeping is now banned. Which State will be next?

Al
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Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

I'm going to have to agree with rattler456.
The dealer could have spent all day asking the guy what kind of experience he had but if he was willing to lie about the snake to his parents and put people in danger just so he could have it whats going to stop him from lieing to the dealer about his experience?
If the person who bought the snake did so legally then I dont see how its the fault of the dealer? Like I said, if he's willing to lie to his parents he's more than willing to lie to the dealer.

The only way to avoid situations like this is to not sell venomous to anyone.
It is a scary situation though.

Quick disclaimer:
I do not keep or handle hots, nor do I plan to. That being said I have tremendous respect for those of you who do take the time (and risk) of caring for these incredible animals.

Now for my soapbox:
Rattler is correct that this whole incident (and countless similar) is the ultimate responsibility of the lying kid. Phobos is correct that the dealer and show organizer should have excercised more caution. These points are NOT mutually exclusive.

Did the kid have the right to be an idiot? Absolutely. Did the dealer have the right to profit from letting the kid be an idiot? Absolutely. Is it smart to insist upon the "freedom" to excercising our rights while refusing to accept the responsibilities? Absolutely NOT.

Is the kid's lie really any different than the dealer's lack of caution? Neither violated a law. Both were ethically wrong. Both ultimately lead to the same potential consequences.

Now the big question, which one was more stupid? I say the dealer. The kid put himself, his family and friends at risk. But he did so with limited knowledge of the possible consequences (thus mitigating some of his responsibility). The dealer put his customer, his customer's family, his customer's friends, his own business, his entire trade, the hobby of many enthusiast, and the well-being of many herps at risk. AND HE SHOULD KNOW BETTER! He doesn't have the excuse of limited knowledge.

We've all seen states, counties and cities adopt oppressive laws to regulate away the rights of those unwilling to regulate to regulate themselves.

The best way to preserve our rights is to insist that we ALL (buyers, dealers, and show organizers) accept the responsibilities that are inherrant in those rights. Otherwise, the government (right or wrong) will use cases like this as an excuse to strip those rights from us.

Very well said!!!!!!

I think if you take the entire story into context it is understandable what Al is trying to say.

For instance, just to say the kid "smuggled the snake home" makes it seem that it was illegal. In this case, Al was referring to the fact the kid's parents were NOT aware their son had purchased a venomous snake. Therefore IF someone had been envenomated, the parents would not know what measures to take medically. Plus if the snake somehow got out, mom or dad might not have thought twice about grabbing the snake. That IS a recipe for disaster.

I also think the 30gal tank with a screen top lid for some smaller venomous is not necessarily dangerous on it's own, but substitute a Pigmy with a Cobra, and let the snake stay in the bedroom (where it is not be constantly monitored)with a curious 7yr old boy and his potential overnight guests, who is to say what could have happened??

I think Al is on the right track with this post, and that responsibility SHOULD NOT BE on the buyer alone, but on ALL of the parties involved. The young man, the parents, and to some extent, the seller were responsible for this fiasco. I'm just glad it turned out the way it did, and no one was injured, and the hobby was not severely negatively impacted.

It is our responsibility to do our BEST to ensure irresponsible keepers do not get their hands on certain snakes.

They will only damage the hobby.

If somone was to buy a gun from a dealer and then go out and murder somone would the dealer be partly to blame for the murder? Of course not because the dealer follows the law so that they are not in the wrong and if the buyer does somthing illegal or in this case very stupid its on the buyer not the seller

You guys keep using guns and cars as examples, last I understood you had to get a permit and do a background check to own a gun, maybe that's a statewide thing, I dont know. I have one that is so old I doubt it'd shoot..LOL
The cars you have to obtain a state issued license, which usually requires passing a test.
I'm not trying to start an argument here.
I just think that it wouldnt hurt any seller to ask a few questions about their customer's background.
Shelters that house abandoned, neglected and abused animals in dire need of good homes still ask questions.

Would it be too hard to say, "I'm sorry I don't feel comfortable selling to you due to your current situation, and experience. But here is my card, maybe I can help you find someone to work with."

The worst thing that will happen if asked about their living situation or their experience, is the customer will lie about their background. In this case, at least the seller can honestly say "Hey I asked the guy about it, and I did my part"

I dont think the dealer should be held 100% responsible for this fiasco, I do believe that the young customer is 100% responsible, but I do think this is a very good point, and something to keep in mind when considering a sale.

It seems like everyone assumes the buyer would have told the truth had the seller asked him if he was capable of dealing with a cobra....I'm having a hard time figuring out why everyone thinks so.

i think that any person, in any state should be allowed to legally buy and keep a venomous species if they have proven to authorities that they are capable. who would the authorities be? fish and game? a local zookeeper? i dont know. but for a fee classes and testing could be given. this might eliminate impulse buying. of course some people will just exploit the black market, but it would make serious experianced hobbiests(sp?) able to legally keep desired species. i live in ill, where venomous species are illegal to keep. one of these days when i illegally buy and keep my hots (and i will) i instantly become a criminal. that sux. i would be more than happy to pay some state agency a few hundred bux to be liscened to own a hot. and a word about guns. in illinois to own ANY gun you must attain a firearms owners identification card(FOID). and there are waiting periods from time of purchase to time of possession of a gun. does this stop the criminals from owning guns. of cousse not!!! they buy them illegally, or steal them.

i guess what im trying to say is that be it hot or guns people will get them. i just wish i could legally get a hot, just like i legally got a gun.

sorry for length.
joe

No one assumed the buyer would have been honest about his answers if he'd have been asked about his background by the seller.
I certainly would not assume that he would be honest, after all he lied to his parents and endangered himself and others.

HOWEVER, I don't think if just a few ??s would have been asked the sale would not have proceeded in the first place.

Most people experienced with venomous snakes (or really ANY animal) can tell you quite a bit about them, someone who is obviously full of lies most likely will not.
If, by some chance they manage to fool the seller with their lies, then at least the seller made an effort.

You can only do so much, and in this case YES the young man, and the parents had the whole of responsibility, but the seller might have been able to nip it in the bud at the show.

I think any time we have an opportunity to prevent public negativity about private reptile ownership, we have a responsibility to do so.

Bottom line is that this type of dealer and this type of customer are two types this hobby can do without...

I would also like to add that anyone who keeps venomous snakes in an all glass aquarium with a screen top is out of their mind... It is just added risk that is easily done away with if the keeper would spend the extra cash on proper caging...

There are tons of questions one can ask a buyer to find out if they can properly care for the snake they are looking to purchase...

I have gotten questioned by dealers before... The responsible ones ask the proper questions...

If you can not answer spacific husbandry questions on the particular species you are looking to buy, you have no buisiness buying it and the dealer has no buisiness selling it to someone who can not answer the questions...

As some of you know I sell a ton of hots and most go out of state ( where they are legal) but I still sorta quiz the buyer and if I am not 100% sure of the buyers abilities in caring for the snake I will refuse to sell to them. In the state of Florida they are trying to change laws to make it almost impossible to have hots so little thing like a person going to a S. Caralina show and bringing it to Fla. is only making it easier for the law makers. Case in point many permitted keepers are getting bit by doing silly things like holding a 5' gaboon on a hook real close to thier bare feet or more recently trying to put a 4' monocole cobra in a 9" deli cup and getting nailed. Things on this sort multable bites or selling to a person that has no clue as to what they are buying or mishandling the snake should have some sort of penalty ie... loss of permit of a servere fine. Show permoters should make sure that the venders know who and who not to sell to, I could not care less if it in legal in the state the show is in I.D.S should be checked to make sure that the snake is not going to a state where it is illegal.

REMEMBER, Law maker in every state are looking for any reason to out law hot snakes.....

Just my 2 cents