As I begin to write this post let’s keep in mind that we should all be careful how we approach our replies. I do not want to start a pissing contest and regardless of results some have went through the motions to come up with there will be people who simply do not want to agree...and that is their choice.
In Southern Pines I see labels being applied to variants which I feel may be normals. They very well may be variants deserving a label, but should this be the case even if they do not breed true? This is an important question. Consider the Corn snake. How many different looks can a Corn sport but still be nothing more than a normal? To keep it simple, let’s just say a lot.
Now in comparison to other Pits, I will guess there are not that many people who are working with Southern Pines. Those who are seem to be working with morphs. On this forum we have had the occasional debate over what is the difference between Leucistic and Snow and I really never get the answers I am hoping for. The same goes for variants in the Patternless class. There’s talk of Tan/Beige, Pink, Red, Yellow etc. Some are more visibly obvious than others, but we all know some sellers on the classifieds, especially in the case of pet shops will slap a label on a snake and raise the price in an effort to exaggerate the rarity of the snake. Some people who buy these snakes may eventually breed them, adding another link to this not easily traced chain of Pines that even experienced Pit keepers can not easily explain.
First off, the opinion I have had that the Snow Southern may not actually be a Snow in the truest sense may have some hard evidence behind it since speaking to a friend. I asked if he bred a Snow to a normal and then bred the babies to each other and the parents. He did and the results showed there were no visible identifiable Anerys in the clutches. I have asked everyone I can think of that may have been able to help for a picture of an Anery Southern and have yet to see one...that is one that could have been produced before last year as I do believe a True Anery/ Axanthic has been produced,....but it has not been used in any breedings yet. Some Pines out there in nature are sliver/gray, they may breed true too resembling the parents but I do not believe these to be Anery. Might some of them be? I guess it is possible but again I do not see snakes like this for sale yet Snows are available? Kind of confusing, but since Snows are nice looking animals people seem to take them at face value and that’s fine with me. But think of this...
Might a Snow simply be a variant of Albino that has nothing to do with Anery? In comparison to normal Corns, could it not be that since Southern Pines have quite a lot of variation in the color scheme of normals that some of these Amels are White instead of Pink? Since no one seems to be able to come up with pics of Anerys I think it very well could be the case. I produce silver/gray snakes from my het Amels which are beige/tan and have wondered if they may be Anerys but often they change a bit as they mature and look very normal to me.
How about Leucistic Southerns? Breed two together and you get a grab bag of morphs. Do people realize this? I do not think everyone does... The snake may in description be a Lucy but would you say they are if they do not breed true? I won’t. Agin I will have to say I like the look, I like all the morphs...but it would be nice to attempt to label them with accuracy even if it is difficult. I am a little sick and tired of people attaching a breeders name to a snake and saying things like “well I think so and so knows what he is talking about”. Because I disagree does not mean anyone does not know what they’re talking about.... but the fact is names stick in the hobby and sometimes people do not ask for explanations. They just assume it is the same as the same morph in another type of snake. A perfect example is the White Sided Hypo and White Sided Albino Bulls being called Snows and Ghosts. In comparison to Corns, they’re not at all the same but the name has stuck and that is going to Part Two of this discussion....the Bulls.
Please think about this for a moment. After discussing Southern Pines with a few breeders things are not easily explained. Breeding two of the same morph often produces odd results. In a way to me this is a lot of fun not knowing exactly what you will see pip from the eggs. I still think some effort should be made to decipher these magnificent snakes as far as their genetic make up. Look at this...
Leucistic X Leucistic does not equal a clutch of Leucistics
Hets created from Snows do not appear to make Anery
Yellow X Yellow will not make all Yellow
Pink X Pink will not make all Pinks???
There are certainly variants which seem obviously justifiable to be labeled as they appear. However the fact remains many of these traits seem poorly understood, and are not as predictable as similar looks are in other colubrids.
I mentioned a somewhat wide degree of variation in normals.....I think this has something to do with it. Maybe at one point a Het Amel from a Tan father was bred to a het Amel from a Gray mother... do you see what I am saying? I think the popularity of Bulls and other Pits left this snake to fall into a mysterious category and oddly enough people seemed content to take them at face value. This is really odd as Pit lovers are often very picky about knowing their stock well and understanding the origins of the morphs within them.
If you have worked with these snakes and have seen results that go against what I have been talking about it would be great to hear your comments and to see some pictures. After this discussion I will post others about Bulls and Gophers. The Pine I recently posted which has a light yellow ground color and lavender blotches was particularly inspiring. It made think to myself how can I name this snake when I do not even understand the labels applied to other morphs in Southern Pines. If you have pictures of unique morphs, Anerys, or Hypos, please share them with us. I tried to keep this short....didn’t quite work out but I think it is worth a read. I am just writing this to throw around some ideas. This is not a post with all the answers at all, I wrote this in an effort to help some of us who find this interesting see why I think now is as good a time as any to try and figure out the origins of some of these variants as who knows what is in store for the future as far as even more unique looks appearing. Thanks Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com
, I am keeping back a sibling and looking for a normal het nothing female and probably a het Amel from someone elses stock. Tom Stevens
