Reptile & Amphibian Forums

If this applies read on, please:
Here are definitions taken from dictionaries on the web, NOT from one biased person:
HETEROZYGOUS: two different versions of a specific gene. As in achondroplasia, one gene without a mutation and one with the mutation for achondroplasia.
medical.lpaonline.org/glossary/

So, having gathered the info above form the web and read it: If a snake(A) gives birth to a white and black banded individual and also a yellow and brown banded individual, then by definition of above terms I could LEGALLY say that the snake(A)'s babies are heterozygous (having two different VERSIONS of a specific gene NOT two different genes) for black and white AND for brown and yellow.

Now for TRAIT: A physical characteristic, such as hair color
www.cccoe.net/genetics/glossary.html

So if I have a snake that has babies that are brown and white banded, black and white banded, AND white and pink banded, white and yellow banded, then according to the definitions I have FOUR, I repeat FOUR TRAITS (because traits are the PHYSICAL characteristics themselves)!!!!!!!
(Guess it's time to put my ad back on....?)

Additionally if you search the web or/and your dictionary at home you will be suprised at all the definitions of those two terms alone. So yes, they can be used to describe snakes that have the possibility of producing offspring of different colors AND patterns and it still be considered HET!!! It doesn't just apply to albinos as ONE regular poster on here believes!

But you're always welcome to call the dictionary MISLEADING, it's fine by me. Just don't call me out - I'm just the messenger,(Go search the web if you don't believe me!)

PEACE OUT & yes, I LOVE Arizona!

Zee
-----
"I am an expert on everything, but I know so little and have so much to learn!" -Carsten "Zee" Zoldy-

legally you can call them whatever you want to?. i would suggest an understanding of recessive,dominant and co-dominate traits before suggesting they are het.for anything first though, otherwise it could be misleading at the least or an ouright lie at the most.,,,,,,,,thomas davis

Zee,

I am not sure about dictonary definitions but in the hobby when people refer to hets they are talking about recessive traits.

Its just the common genetics within this hobby which Mr. Webster is not into. I think Bechtels book (gentics bible in herpetoculture) refers to it that way as well.

That aside I think it was wrong for people to bring this up here. Even though your name was not metioned it was not hard to figure out since you were referred to as a "frequent poster". You are right that people should have PM'd you and kept it private. I think that what happened is against Kingsnake TOS as well.

I don't mean to be rude but as a genetics student I can tell you that while those definitions are not wrong, they are not complete, and you are not drawing the proper conclusions from them.

Vertibrate animals have a given number of paired chromosomes. Each chromosome pair has the same genes on it. One comes from the father and one comes from the mother. Each equivelent gene is called an allele. Most of the time the genes are identicle, as in both cromosomes code for two eyes, one mouth, a certain head scalation, etc. Sometimes however there is a difference between the two genes. When an animal has two different alleles it is heterozygous. When the alleles are identacle they are called homozygous.

Sooo het does not just refer to a mysterious hidden abilitiy to carry a trait. It refers to a specific chromosomal arangement of genes.

Just because multiple traits are produced does not mean that the parents are het for anything. NO ONE UNDERSTANDS THE MECHANISMS OF CAL KING PATTERNS. What if I told you that all king snakes have all of the genes for both pattern types and it is environmentally determined what the offspring will look like. WHat if I told you only the mothers mitochondrial DNA is responsible for the patterns? The point is that we don't know enough to call a cal king het for anything except the traits with known inheritance patterns such as albino, hypo, melanistic, etc.

Its not that your snakes don't make the cut, its that there is no such thing as a het for striped or het for banded cal king. The traits just don't reproduce that way.

Also, If both of your adult snakes are het albino then 1/4 of the offspring are albino, 1/4 are NORMAL, and 1/2 are het for albino. SOOOO the ones that are normal appearing are 66% possible het albino. And you shouldn't advertise them as definites.

Its just to bad that blueking is getting raped over this issue because he mistakenly posted these as such. I in no way beleive he was trying to make an extra buck.

However he is certianly the rarity because most people who advertise things like this do so knowingly. I recently emailed a person who had a classified. It was over a similar situation but even more clearcut. I did it to help him out and not chastice him. He still advertised his animal fasely. Something I don't think Blueking would have done if privatly emailed.

Excellent explaination, yes.

I don't mean to be rude either, but don't know why I'm saying that, because you can always RETYPE?...?...?...?

Posted by: zach_whitman at Tue Nov 7 15:22:59 2006 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

((((I don't mean to be rude but as a genetics student I can tell you that while those definitions are not wrong, they are not complete, and you are not drawing the proper conclusions from tem.)))
NOT A GENETICS STUDENT, so incomplete is better than nothing!
AND I'M NOT SELLING 20000 dollar ball pythons - these are 30 dollar snakes (almost feeder animals in some folks' eyes) So ease of the throttle there, my friend (you did say student didn't you?) Me? I'm a student too (every day in life), so sorry for drawing improper conlusions. My time was very limited yesterday, and I hit my throttle too hard!

((((Vertibrate animals have a given number of paired chromosomes. Each chromosome pair has the same genes on it. One comes from the father and one comes from the mother. Each equivelent gene is called an allele. Most of the time the genes are identicle, as in both cromosomes code for two eyes, one mouth, a certain head scalation, etc. Sometimes however there is a difference between the two genes. When an animal has two different alleles it is heterozygous. When the alleles are identacle they are called homozygous.))))
Straight out of the book!!! Thanks! But I did not and could not spend that much time on a BOOK out here (in Kuwait & Iraq) much less the internet. And I wasn't going to, since I was only selling 30 dollar snakes and my work days are 14 hours long, 7 days a week. (Once every 3 or 4 weeks I get a day off.) There are uglier snakes than these that cost a whole lot more in petstores, so I wasn't trying to maliciously rip anyone off. I was merely trying to help my wife (in the states) sell the little buggers. The price itself was a big enough of a hint! (Now I have some time off and I can type away...BOOOWAAHAAAHHAAA!)

((((Sooo het does not just refer to a mysterious hidden abilitiy to carry a trait. It refers to a specific chr omosomal arangement of genes.))))
Agreed!

(((((Just because multiple traits are produced does not mean that the parents are het for anything. NO ONE UNDERSTANDS THE MECHANISMS OF CAL KING PATTERNS. What if I told you that all king snakes have all of the genes for both pattern types and it is environmentally determined what the offspring will look like. WHat if I told you only the mothers mitochondrial DNA is responsible for the patterns? The point is that we don't know enough to call a cal king het for anything except the traits with known inheritance patterns such as albino, hypo, melanistic, etc.)))))
YOU said DON'T KNOW enough to call a cal king het for anything, AND you said NO ONE UNDERSTANDS THE MECHANISMS OF CAL KING PATTERNS... Definetely AGREE!!! Cause I don't either, LOL!

((((Its not that your snakes don't make the cut, its that there is no such thing as a het for striped or het for banded cal king. The traits just don't reproduce that way.)))
Once again YOU said this: YOU said DON'T KNOW enough to call a cal king het for anything except for a few traits, AND you said NO ONE UNDERSTANDS THE MECHANISMS OF CAL KING PATTERNS... Sooooooo how can YOU state for sure that there is no such thing - after the above statements were made???? Confused....
I DO know this: Locality DOES affect pattern in some cases (no, i didn't get that out of a book - everytime I bred banded cal kings from the North bay area of California together, I alwyas got banded babies - no sripes EVER! If you bred some S. cal individuals together than yes, you could get some stripers!

(((((Also, If both of your adult snakes are het albino then 1/4 of the offspring are albino, 1/4 are NORMAL, and 1/2 are het for albino. SOOOO the ones that are normal appearing are 66% possible het albino. And you shouldn't advertise them as definites.)))))
(Yup, straight out of the book.) Of course even that highly accurate info is based only on past breeding results and Punnett's square. When I bred my (het albino pair) the ratio was different EVERY year. So 25% may be a good estimate, but STILL not accurate. I can assure you that you won't get 25% every year! I've been breeding a loong time, and seen some stuff pop up that would make Punnett reshape his "square" into an octagon!!!
My only point is YOU can NEVER say for sure when it comes to nature. So leave a little room for error and allow some folks to make mistakes. I sure as heck made mine! You can only make your best predictions based on OTHER people's past work written in books. But once YOU start breeding your own snakes for about 25 years, you will be surprised more times than you think. They say EXPERIENCE is the best teacher (ok, ok, relax, we know that books and professors that have read books are better!)
But back to my thing: I was only trying to sell 30 dollar snakes, not 20000 dollar ball pythons. I will leave out the word HET, and everyone can go to bed in peace.
A new ad would read: For sale: Snake, 30 bucks, take it or leave it!!! OR: Snake 30 bucks, possibly het, possibly not het for many different things.

But still: THANK YOU very much for your response and opening my eyes a little furhter too! I DO appreciate your comments. Don't take me too literal either,(until I start breeding 20000 dollar ball pythons, lol). Don't worry that'll never happen!
But I finally got a day off and I felt like typing!
Take care and PEACE ,

Zee

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
"I am an expert on everything, but I know so little and have so much to learn!" -Carsten "Zee" Zoldy-

(((YOU said DON'T KNOW enough to call a cal king het for anything except for a few traits, AND you said NO ONE UNDERSTANDS THE MECHANISMS OF CAL KING PATTERNS... Sooooooo how can YOU state for sure that there is no such thing - after the above statements were made???? Confused....)))

Obviously there is such a thing as carriers for traits it just that the term het doesn't work for the observed offspring. SO yes leave off the word het and most of this goes away.

I may not know how it all works but I do know how it doesn't.
Not that confusing...

(((I DO know this: Locality DOES affect pattern in some cases (no, i didn't get that out of a book - everytime I bred banded cal kings from the North bay area of California together, I alwyas got banded babies - no sripes EVER! If you bred some S. cal individuals together than yes, you could get some stripers!)))

Obviously...

But not because localities have different magical powers or new rules of inheritance. The location has nothing to do with it aside from the fact that it is a group of animals with more similar genes. Some groups have the capabilities to prouce stripers and others don't.

And as far as your punnet square theories... Obviously theoretical genetics is not a perfect representation of what will always happen. Flip a coin 6 times, and you probobly wont get 3 heads and 3 tails. Flip it 6 times again and you probobly wont get the same thing you got last time. None of this disproves the fact that you always have a 50 -50 shot at getting heads or tails each time you filp the coin.

By the same logic... No obviously your clutch will not be the perfect 1:2:1 ratio of normals:het albino: albino. But there is still a 66% proboblility that any of the normal appearing ones are hets. Therefore advertising them as gauranteed hets is dishonest.

Cheers

I don't remember how Bechtel uses "heterozygous". However, using it for only recessive mutant genes is an easy trap to fall into. When he wrote, there were fewer mutants known than now, and only one (arguably) dominant mutant gene was known in snakes -- striped in the California king.

When one gets into species like mice and fruit flies, there are hundreds of mutant genes, and some of them are not recessive to the normal version of the gene. There, heterozygous means that there are two different versions of a gene in a gene pair. And it doesn't matter what the two versions are. One could be a normal gene, and the other could be a dominant mutant gene. One could be a normal gene, and the other could be a recessive mutant gene. One could be a normal gene, and the other could be a codominant mutant gene. Or they could be two different mutant genes. The only things that matter are that the two genes are different and that they are in a gene pair. This is a paraphrase of the definition on www.dictionary.com, too.

Paul Hollander

Thank you very much for the response. And I do apologize if I may have offended any genetecists on here. I know next time all I have to do to make things right is leave out THREE letters: HET. Easy fix: Here's a sample ad: Three snakes, possible of producing at least 8 kinds of different looking babies.

YES, it WAS pretty obvious that an unprofessional response was made towards ME by KERBY, without knowing the circumstance, or me as an individual. Trust me, I have nothing to gain from selling three nice snakes for thirty bucks. If anyone thought they were getting ripped off - try buying your kingsnake at a pet store! Thanks Rainer.
AND KERBY??? where art thou??? I still love ya like a brother!

God forgives too. . . Peace to all,

Zee
-----
"I am an expert on everything, but I know so little and have so much to learn!" -Carsten "Zee" Zoldy-

Zee, no worries man. I think most people on here knows you were not intentionally trying to mislead any potential customers on purpose. I know I didn't even give it a second thought. I've seen a quite a bit errors here & there on the KS classifids, with animals being mislabled and such. The important thing is you removed the word "het" and chalked it up as a mistake on your part. Kerby called you out on it, and I really hope Kerby didn't think you were doing it with malicious intent.
On another note, I remember an add on the KS classifieds, and Keith Hillson may remember this. The add was advertising an Eastern King that was "Ohio" locality. Well, I emailed the seller, as well as quite a few other people, on the mistake about the locality. That individual didn't want to hear about it. Didn't matter that everone was telling him that Eastern Kings are not located in Ohio. He was selling an eastern king, and it was going to be advertised as an Ohio locality. Period, LOL.
Steve

Hey, what's going on? Thanks for the kind words. And NO, I have no reason to rip anyone off or lie to them on purpose. My time is usually limited on the net, so I tend to get in a hurry. But there are SOOOOOOOOOO many ways to word things in this country to get around legal obstacles, it makes me wonder that anyone even said anything in the first place!!! Wish I weren't overeas anymore. Getting tired of these crazy work hours. But I finally got a day off!
Yeah, I got some NC locality cal-kings, cause they were hatched at mMY house in NC!!!LOL!
AND they are het for at least eight traits: 1.Scales, 2.skin, 3.head, 4.tail, 5.eyes, 6.nostrils, 7.tongue, and 8. AT least ONE kind of color pigment on the scales!!! NO BLUFFIN'!!!
Maybe we should have a forum on here for genetecists, and biologists only. Then they can argue amongst each other and leave me the heck alone!!! But then again, we got plenty of Wanna-bes on here... ROFLMAO!!!
Ok, ok, maybe I'm havin a "Robin Williams syndrome" here! (Havin too much fun.)
But anyway, good to hear from you Steve. How many animals do you have in your collection? I have seen pics of all those animals you posted. They are ALL beautiful! You got good taste, bro! Got any Eastern kings still?

Zee
-----
"I am an expert on everything, but I know so little and have so much to learn!" -Carsten "Zee" Zoldy-

Thanks Zee. I guess I have a little over 20 animals in my collection. I'd say I have more cornsnakes then anything. Also have Ratsnakes, (working mostly with Emoryi Ratsnakes) Western Hogs, and various types of kingsnakes. And without a doubt I have eastern kings. If I could only have one snake in my collection, it would be an Eastern king. I'll always have easterns in my collection. I have a Greenville, SC. Eastern that I got from Peter earlier this year. I also have an 05 Currituck, NC. Eastern that I purchased from Peter at the Richmond show where you and him shared a table. That was the same show you sold your pair of speckled kings to Jeff.(Cochran)
Anyway, stay safe, and look forward to seeing you when you get back.
Steve

>>How many animals do you have in your collection? I have seen pics of all those animals you posted. They are ALL beautiful! You got good taste, bro! Got any Eastern kings still?

That's a nice one you got there Steve!
I have some WC ones in my collection that I found myself during my W. Texas trip a year and a half ago (found four in 24 hours - best trip EVER!):

Zee

-----
"I am an expert on everything, but I know so little and have so much to learn!" -Carsten "Zee" Zoldy-

HETEROZYGOUS: two different versions of a specific gene. As in achondroplasia, one gene without a mutation and one with the mutation for achondroplasia.

So, having gathered the info above form the web and read it: If a snake(A) gives birth to a white and black banded individual and also a yellow and brown banded individual, then by definition of above terms I could LEGALLY say that the snake(A)'s babies are heterozygous (having two different VERSIONS of a specific gene NOT two different genes) for black and white AND for brown and yellow.

This isn't true. You are making an assumption which you have no data to support. You are implying the brown coloration and black coloration are regulated by "two different versions of a specific gene". You have no evidence to support that. What if it is a qualitative trait and the degree of browness or blackness depends on the dosage of those several particular genes? This is how melanin production works in humans, why can't it work the same in snakes?

The problem is that you are starting with an a priori assumption about how the characteristic is inherited and the using your very small data set to support that assumption.

Now for TRAIT: A physical characteristic, such as hair color

So if I have a snake that has babies that are brown and white banded, black and white banded, AND white and pink banded, white and yellow banded, then according to the definitions I have FOUR, I repeat FOUR TRAITS (because traits are the PHYSICAL characteristics themselves)!!!!!!!

Not at all. Going back to the definition, black hair, blond hair, and brown hair are versions of the hair color trait. They aren't three different traits, which is what your logic would imply.

So here, we are talking about two traits, the presence/absence of melanin and the trait that governs black/white vs brown/yellow (yes, that's one trait). These two traits are undoubtedly independent.

Additionally if you search the web or/and your dictionary at home you will be suprised at all the definitions of those two terms alone. So yes, they can be used to describe snakes that have the possibility of producing offspring of different colors AND patterns and it still be considered HET!

No they can't. Not if you want to be correct. Heterozygous has a very specific definition. The fact that you can find dictionary definitions that are incomplete doesn't mean you are using the word correctly by meeting those vague definitions.

For example:
Dictionary.com defines heterozygous incorrectly as "having dissimilar pairs of genes for any hereditary characteristic".
This is not true. Heterozygous should be defined as having dissimilar alleles for any hereditary characteristic. Just because you find a vague or incorrect definition in a dictionary doesn't change the meaning of the word.
-----
Chris Harrison
San Antonio, Texas

>So, having gathered the info above form the web and read it: If a snake(A) gives birth to a white and black banded individual and also a yellow and brown banded individual, then by definition of above terms I could LEGALLY say that the snake(A)'s babies are heterozygous (having two different VERSIONS of a specific gene NOT two different genes) for black and white AND for brown and yellow.

I'm not up on the inheritance of black and white vs. brown and yellow. Let's recast this statement in terms of albino and normal (AKA black and white). I changed "brown and white" to "albino" in two spots and italicized them. Otherwise the following version is the same as the original statement:

So, having gathered the info above form the web and read it: If a snake(A) gives birth to a white and black banded individual and also an albino banded individual, then by definition of above terms I could LEGALLY say that the snake(A)'s babies are heterozygous (having two different VERSIONS of a specific gene NOT two different genes) for black and white AND for albino.

The way I read this, both the black and white baby and the albino baby are claimed to be heterozygous. The black and white (normal) snake has a normal gene paired with the albino mutant version of the gene. And the albino snake has a normal gene paired with the albino mutant version of the gene. Do you see why this does not compute?

Paul Hollander

kinda like what we were talking about a few weeks ago.

I guess by this criterion, any heterozygous individual is heterozygous for both traits.

However, it is deceiving to call them heterozygous for both traits because it isn't standard practice.
-----
Chris Harrison
San Antonio, Texas

SHEEEEESH . . . . You're killin' me . . .
But I still love ya all... It's all good!

(Testosterone check):
My car is faster than your car!
My snake is bigger than your snake!
My dictionary is more right than yours!
AND ON AND ON AND ON . . .

Definitions and dictionaries are like the Bible: lots of ways to interpret writings - hence the reason we have so many lawyers & courtrooms, right???
Don't take every word I write so literal, please... RELAX!!! Open our mind and remember we're not all the same, and none of us share the same brain . . .
And don't forget pecentages are just best guess estimates based on Punnett's square. Not every year did my (het albino) snakes produce 25% albinos like Punnett said they would. Some years less, some more. So now I'm gonna sue Punnett for false info (just kidding). So when I see people advertise 66% chance for this or that , than that could be inacurate, because you can NOT definetely prove that. Snakes don't come with numbers and GUARANTEES painted on them - sorry. . . Of course we know that and USUALLY don't attack those ads.....

Ok back to this: Simple solution: I will leave out the word HET .. . And we can all go to bed now . . . PLEASE???
Here you go: A sample ad: Three baby mice for sale, possibly able to produce at least eight different looking offspring like the parents have.
PLUS: These mice ARE HET for LIVING!!!(I hope)!

Anyway, thanks for the response Chris
Have a great day & God bless you all,

Zee
-----
"I am an expert on everything, but I know so little and have so much to learn!" -Carsten "Zee" Zoldy-

As a science teacher I can tell you that Zach Whitman explained heterozygous and trait the best. Trying to simplify, it can be explained like this:

Heterozygous refers to the genotype or genetic composition of the alleles. You get two alleles for each gene (one from each parent). Homozygous means you have two of the same alleles for one gene. Heterozygous means you have two different alleles for one gene. If "A" represented a dominant allele, and "a" represented a recessive allele then an individual with alleles "AA" would be homozygous dominant. An individual with alleles "Aa" would be heterozygous, yet still show the dominant trait because the dominant "A" masks the recessive "a". An individual with the alleles "aa" would be homozygous recessive, and would exhibit the recessive trait.

Trait is the phenotpye, or physical manifestation (physical outward appearance) of the genotype. So If you breed two heterozygous individuals (both "Aa" you will have a 25% probability of getting a homzygous dominant individual ("AA", a 50% probability of getting a heterozygous individual ("Aa", and a 25% probability of getting a homozygous recessive individual ("aa".
-----
0.1 Amelanistic Corn
0.1 Aberrant California King
1.0 Pueblan Milk
0.1 Blair's Gray Banded King
0.1 Blonde Trans Pecos Rat
1.0 Variable King
0.1 Chihuahua Mtn. King
0.1 Kunasir Island Rat