Reptile & Amphibian Forums

O was just wondering why so many people on the kingsnake forums dislike ball pythons, some to the point of downright contempt for the things. I will admit that I think the morph prices are beyond ridiculous. There is not a snake on this planet that I would pay $10,000 or more, some upwards of $75,000, but I do still enjoy the "normal" royals. They are easy to care for, make for a calm pet to sit back and watch TV with, and they are excellent when introducing kids to snakes. The king I bought for my 4 year old son is on his way to making a great pet, and he is very active, which I like in comparison to the generally still and quiet nature of the balls. But for some children, it is easier to hold a snake that sits still, over one that is always trying to get out your hands and take off across the room. For instance, my 3 yr old daughter likes holding the king, though she does get nervous when he whips his tail around in order wrap around her wrist, in an effort to ensure that he doesn't fall. But my 4 yr old son, is much more at ease with a ball python because he can hold it without it musking (peeing. heheh) and they don't generally seem as head shy as some of the other snakes. To each his own preference, though I feel that straight out dismissing balls as a pet rock, or boring, is a bit biased. Of course, I am on the kingsnake forum, so bias is to be expected. lol. Thanks for reading. I enjoy the kingsnake we have now, and am definilty converting to collubrids as I will be getting some new kings and milks in the very near future. Of course, I still very much like the pythons, and the ball python is a great choice in my experience when working with younger children.

I don't think anyone here has anything against Ball Pythons. Many people here probably have kingsnakes and Ball Pythons.

There are however, many people, including me, that have a problem with the Ball Python industry. Ball Pythons are harvested from the wild by the thousands, crated up and shipped all over the world every year. Most of these snakes are doomed to die. What's worse, many gravid females are caught, held until the eggs hatch, and then those babies are packed in horrific densities and sent all over the world. When they arrive at Petsmart/Petco/wherever, they are sold as "captive born" babies. The problem is that unlike real captive bred and born babies, they have a very low probability of surviving. I suspect thousands of these little baby ball pythons perish every year in ten gallon aquariums all over the world. It bothers me to even have to think about the numbers enough to type it out.

It is a shameless exploitation of a wildlife resource masquerading as conservation. When people buy their "captive born" BP from Petsmart, they think they are supporting captive breeding and helping to stop the exploitation, but they don't realize they are contributing to/supporting this international wildlife trade. They are being deliberately deceived. I don't blame the PetCo employee, they are probably as ignorant of their role as the customer.

Another issue I have is that Ball Pythons are sold as the "perfect first snake" by most petstores. I couldn't disagree more. Even captive bred and born BPs (and I have kept quite a few both CBB and WC) don't make good starter snakes. They are docile and good feeders, but they require fairly strict temperature profiles, they are very shy and would prefer not to be handled, and if their environment is properly set up, they hide 23 hours a day. Not much fun for the kids.

They get sold as this because they (usually) don't bite. There are lots of snakes that don't bite, but that isn't the solo criterion that should be put forward as the reason to get them as starter snakes. And, BTW, they do bite. I have been bitten by more than a few BPs, and it bleeds like no kingsnake bite!

That said, I have kept BPs for many of the last 20 years. I think they are beautiful and fascinating snakes. I just don't think they are a good starter snake.

The current trend of designer balls being "worth" thousands of dollars is ridiculous. Some of them are gorgeous and rare, but most of the "morphs" you see used to be sold in the petstores for $19.99 each in the early 80s. No one cared about the morphs back then.

And just for the record, I don't think Calkings make a very good starter snake either. Florida Kings, absolutely, but not CalKings. They are too high strung as babies, IMHO.

...clump, clump, clump....steps off soapbox.
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Chris Harrison
San Antonio, Texas

I knew of some of the issues with captive born vs captive bred, and of course I prefer captive bred as an ensurance that they snake will be healthy. The ball morph projects right now are insane. I was quoted a price of $300-500 for an albino ball python less than 10 years ago. Good luck paying that now. As far as a beginner snake, I wasn't so much referring to a ball python as the world's greatest starter snake. I was leaning more towards being able to take a snake into my kids school, and allowing the other children to pet and/or hold a "real live, not-so-slimey snake". And I also realize that alot of people do keep both kings and balls, along a huge array of other breeds. I just have read several times by people calling the balls "dumb",
"pet rocks", and other similiar comments. I have only had one royal python in my time, so I don't have a huge keeper history to base all of my judgements on. But I did notice with the ball that I had, he very much enjoyed being handled, and he would go everywhere with me. I actually have been asked to leave more than one public place (namely a certain convenience store. bad judgement call, but I couldn't just leave him in the car, now could I?) because someone would notice the "bulge" in my sweatshirt front pocket, ask what it was, then literally spasm when I would produce the snake. Wusses. lol. Side note, many of places "we" would frequent actually welcomed the snake, and would be concerned asking if he was ok if he wasn't with me. Some positive outcome though, I was able to educate several people the conservation of exotic animals, and I have pointed out the w/c cb issue as was mentioned. Anyways, I love the king we decided to get for my son, and I am wanting to expand a collection to include both collubrids and pythons. Thanks for reading.

I agree with everything ChrisH said. I would like to add from my perspective that the Ball Pythons used to be considered the "garter snake" of the snake world. They were the bottom of the barrel most common import. SOmething about father time has not changed that for me. But for others new to the snake hobby, I am sure the ball python will always be attractive. But as Chris said it not a good first pet snake.

I think Balls are awesome but they killed the market with too many very slight differnces being designated as a "new Morph". I agree with chrish that harvesting of Balls is a shame especially that they are eaily bred as evidence by the morph market.

Big Jack Bronson

I like all species of snakes. What's almost worse than the BP trade, is people collecting tons of WC's and adding those to their collections.
Sam

I dont think its the same and not really a fair comparison. People who go and collect a few snakes every year is not like the Ball farming in Africa. That being said I dont really like the guys who collect tons of snakes for the wholesale market but that isnt the same as a single guy collecting a few for personal use.
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Big Jack Bronson

hate to burst your bubble but most of us pay a license for the privelege of harvesting a natural resource legally. Hah, where do you think your snakes came from originally? You may or may not know, but I sure do! I have some cbb's but most of my collection consists of long term captives and I wouldn't have it any other way. I don't collect commercially, but for myself. I will sell offspring from the w.c. adults, and pay my state breeder's license fee as well. Don't be like that, man! We were dissin' the balls and why are we talkin' balls on the kingsnake forum?
Todd Hughes

Unless you guys collect tons of native species every year then I have no idea why you are getting defensive. I wasn't trying to compare them, just pointing out that I think it's more retarded to collect our native snakes in bulk every year. I don't mind if you collect a few snakes a year, but I'm hearing these guys collect stuff everytime they go out in the field. That's hurting alot of things. Just my opinion....
Sam

Point taken, but I think that your confusing take with observe. If you notice that most of the people on this sight have a small list of target species that they are looking for in the field. Most species are photographed and released. Even when most of the target species are found, only a few animals are taken. I know that there are a few indiscriminate field collectors out there, or should I say, nature rapers, and I'm strongly opposed to their methods. I agree with Todd Hughes, most of us do observe field herping laws and regulations. None of us would have any herps and this forum would be unnecessary, if at some point in time, herps were not taken from the wild. This topic has been beaten to a pulp here before, but I think it does need to be brought up now and again. If you are going to collect, please follow the law and collect responsibly, and if you do not collect, but do keep herps, don't knock the people that do your dirty work.
-Phil

I agree with you. I'm not knocking collectors, just "nature rapers." Which is an awesome usage of words. I'm stealing that one.
Sam

Opinion noted, but also be aware that most states also recognize capture, photo, and release to be hunting, recquiring said licenses. You could be breaking the law not knowing, and ignorance is no excuse!
Todd Hughes

My grief with the Ball Python Market has nothing to do with the animal itself, but with the people and hype behind it. I have been told by Ball Python breeders that "The future of the herp hobby is in Ball Pythons, and If you want to make a living in reptiles, Ball Pythons are the way to go!". This statement in itself points to the problem with the Ball Python Market and the people behind it. I'm not in this hobby to make a living off of reptiles, but because I love the animals I work with! The Ball Python market has turned into a big pyramid scam. Say I put a second on my house and buy a $18,000 Ball Python morph. Chances are that by the time It's able to breed, the market will have fallen out of the bottom, and now I'm stuck with a second on my house and a $20.00 snake. This "inflated" market has invited a lot of get rich quick people that care less about the animals they are selling, and only about making a quick buck, and some of them are getting rich too. I heard that some of the speakers at Daytona this year sounded like timeshare salesmen trying to convince you to buy into their Ball Python hype. They even showed pictures of their houses that they bought with their "profits". The sad thing is that a lot of people are buying in to it and eventually the bottom is going to fall out, and there will be a lot of crazy colored Ball Pythons looking for new homes. If you think I'm crazy, just look at Albino Burmese Pythons. Almost every reptile store has one, and people are giving them away in the paper. The first one sold in the U.S. for around $25,000. When this happens the now rich Ball Python breeders will move onto the next fad and get rid of their "stock" because there's no money in it anymore.
-Phil

Very good post Phil!!! I agree with everything you said!!

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Genesis 1:1

Thanks. I should have added another statement at the end of my post too. I have no problem with people making a living off of breeding reptiles and doing what they love. I just have a problem with the whole get rich quick scams. For most of these people it's not about the animals and more about the money and it does nothing for our hobby as a whole. They could care less about that natural history and it's place in nature. Most of them wouldn't know the first place to look in the field to find a snake. That's because that takes an awareness of it's environment and natural needs. Some of them would probably try and look under a park bench. LOL!
-Phil

Oh yeah, I hear you. Making a living off reptiles is not wrong at all. I have a few friends that do. The thing I can't stand is how the animal is viewed upon. Not a pet, not even an interesting specimen to have collected or purchased for your own collection but a money making object. Not everyone into BPs is doing that, but there are some.
What is funny is that people will realize that all of this will not add up to what they were expecting. Now, if the ball pythons I speak of still get a good home out of it, despite how ridiculous their owner's demands are, cool, cause that is what is most important. It just has been interesting to say the least, how that industry has been conducted.

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Genesis 1:1

Those are some nice Pituophis you have there!
Thanks for the pics.
-Phil

Thank you sir!!
The best pet snake IMO! Graybands are a second!

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Genesis 1:1

The only Pits I've ever kept were P.m. deserticola from Washington State when I was younger. Alterna are high on my list too, along with N. American milks and Mountain Kings. Actually anthing with scales is fine by me. LOL!
-Phil

Deserticola is one thing I do not have. I plan on it someday, just gotta find the dream one!
What alterna do you have?

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Genesis 1:1

I have an '02 F2 pair of Langtry Alterna phase that I got from a friend, Bob Macken. I also have two really nice males from unknown locals. One is a dark Blairs and the other is a spotted Blairs. One of these days I'm going to have to buy a nice digital camera, so I can post pics. Maybe if I jump on the Ball Python band wagon I could afford a top of the line model. LOL!
-Phil

I am telling ya, nice looking Blairs phase alterna are just nothing short of incredible! Post pics in the future if you can! I would love to see them. I love how they can vary so much as well.

Good BP bandwagon joke!!
Billy
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Genesis 1:1

Yep, I would trade a basket fulluv balls for a few great gophers! and /or kings!
Todd Hughes

Another nice thing about the Pits, Lampropeltis, and Triangulum
is that most of them are native to the Good Ole' U.S. of A.!
-Phil

I like

.....
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3.5 THAYERI
1.2 SPLENDIDA (1.0 ALBINO/ 0.2 HYPO)
1.3 ALTERNA
1.1 CAL KING (1.0 ALB.LAVENDER/0.1 BLIZZARD)
0.0.1 HOLD BACK RUNT ALBINO CORN
0.1.1 pyxie
0.0.2 horned frogs

..

I think pieds are one of the most beautiful snakes....and I agree, some of the morph prices are rediculous.

Brandon Osborne

I feel the same way about caramels. Nice pieds btw!

Will

A nice little pewter female to go with my pied male in a couple of years. Nice caramel by the way.

Brandon Osborne

Nice pewter Brandon, did you hatch it? I bred a pastel to an import that looks black pastelish, but no pewter, got a very odd pastel though.

I just traded for a nice lesser platinum male. Hopefully him and my mojo female will give me a blue-eyed lucy (or two) someday.

I hatched 6 possible het pied females this past season, I'm hoping to hatch out some pieds in a couple of years. I tend to go about these ball projects the long (and cheap) way. Thanks for the awesome pics.

Will

"they make for a calm pet to sit back and watch TV with"

i second that, i love when your just relaxing with your ball and they pick up thier head like a parascope to watch tv
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jake

my addiction:
0.2 normal ball pythons (lazlo and izzy)
0.1 amelenistic corn snake (maizy)
0.1 blizzard corn (blizz)
1.0 albino cal king (zeus)
0.0.1 wc garter (zim)
hybrid breeders association
hybrid haven

I agree. The ball python is a wonderfull animal for the hobyist!! Personally I like the corns and kings more than balls but I do have 6 balls and will be producing albino's. This is more to fund my corn and king hobby. You can buy a lot of frozen mice and rats when selling one albino ball, not to mention OBK's, black pines, etc.

np