Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Just an opinion pole...I have a nice trio of this sub. The make is readay to breed. The females are 3 years old, nice and thick...but only about 24" long.

Thoughts on breeding these animals at 24"?
Is that too small?

The male is about 32" but he is 2 yrs older than the females.
Thanks for any thoughts!

If they breed then they aren't to small. If they don't then they are. haha

Post some pics, agalmas are awesome!

I guess I was wondering more along the lines of if they were likely to become egg-bound if bred too small...and if so...is 24" big enough.

Being an "indigo guy" I'm a bit paranoid about such things.

Here is one of the females and then male.
They will throw some good babies for sure!

This has been a topic of recent heated debate on this forum. Some people maintain that smaller females are more likely to become egg bound. Others, myself included, believe that if a female ovulates that means she is ready to breed. Smaller females are more sensitive to keeper errors, but under proper conditions should be able to reproduce with no more risk than a larger animal.

Either way, when this was brought up a few weeks ago we were talking about 18 inch kings. I think that 24 inches is OK by just about anyones book.

So go for it. And put me on the list for next years babies! Seriously, those guys are gorgeous and I have been keeping my eyes open for some.

Cheers

The first mistake that the average Joe makes is that they lump Zonata in with "caresheet" formula for Kingsnakes. Mountain Kings have evolved to live in a very demanding environment. They have a very brief season of activity, compaired to Cal. Kings, or Eastern Kings. To live in this environment they have evolved into species that is much smaller than your average lowland King, granted there are exceptions. Yet they still reproduce and have done so for millions of years, no matter what the "caresheets" say. Who's writing these D#mn things anyways?LOL! One thing that I find funny is that a lot of breeders go by minimum breeding weights, yet you'd be lucky to find a female in the feild that met this weight requirement.
-Phil

I agree.

I am glad you brought this up. Saved me the writing.

Posted by: Patton at Mon Nov 13 19:36:31 2006 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

The first mistake that the average Joe makes is that they lump Zonata in with "caresheet" formula for Kingsnakes. Mountain Kings have evolved to live in a very demanding environment. They have a very brief season of activity, compaired to Cal. Kings, or Eastern Kings. To live in this environment they have evolved into species that is much smaller than your average lowland King, granted there are exceptions. Yet they still reproduce and have done so for millions of years, no matter what the "caresheets" say. Who's writing these D#mn things anyways?LOL! One thing that I find funny is that a lot of breeders go by minimum breeding weights, yet you'd be lucky to find a female in the feild that met this weight requirement.
-Phil

Zonata's breed at a pretty small size. If fed well they should be able to reach atleast 18" by their second year, and that is around the smallest that I would recommend trying to breed. I know that Ric Blair, Bob Applegate and I have all had luck breeding at that size. Zonata's don't grow as fast as some of the other Lampropeltis species, especially in the wild. They also seem to be ready to breed at a smaller size as well. Brian Hubbs also mentions this in his Moutain Kings book. I would recommend brumating them at 50-55 degrees, some breeders have only brumated for a month or two, but I've had better fertility with three months. I also keep my male and at least one female together during brumation. Other people have had problems with infertile clutches, and I think it's because they wait too long to pair up their male and female. I usually pull mine out of brumation in the middle of Feb. I've had a pair locking up as I pull them out of brumation, even before they have fed or had their first shed. The females usually eat well for me. I usually feed them smaller meals, but more often, every 3-5 days.
I try and feed them well through most of the season to fatten them up. They usually quite eating again in Aug.
Good luck!
-Phil
Photo by Ric blair
of My '05 Bass Lake L.z.multicincta

Dean!
Good to see you here!
I have to comment that those two agalmas you have pictured are among the prettiest I have ever seen. Also, I love all the orange/red on their heads. I limited myself to having only one mountain king at the moment, otherwise I would be sending you a deposit for a hatchling!

As far as 24 inches being too small to breed one of those females, one thing to remember is that ( which of course I assume you know ), mountain kings generally are not as big as cal kings, Fl. kings, desert kings, etc., so the females being somewhat small would not concern me as much as it would with the snakes I mentioned. The range can be anywhere from 24 to 36 inches on up. A good friend of mine had a huge female agalma that was the size of a good sized cal king.

I, if they were mine, would still wait another year and have the females get a little bit more growth and length. Although no one can predict what would happen, snakes are individuals and they may or may not handle breeding with no problems. No one can predict for sure.

I think your concern for your females should be commended, and if your gut instinct says to wait, then wait. You lose nothing by doing so, and the snakes get a chance to be bigger. They do appear to have very good weight and are nowhere near being fat, but do show very good girth. You have done a great job there!

Either way you decide, keep us posted and if you do have babies next year, post pics here! If it ends up being the next year after that, still post pics!

Billy
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Genesis 1:1

Thanks for all the advice and comments!

I have done a fair amount of reading about these animals (I have the Hubbs book and the ZONATA book and everything I can get my hands on)...so I am well aware of their typical adult size, etc.

Hubbs says he thinks a 20" female zonata of any sub is ready to breed. I assume that info comes from breeders that he knows. I just wanted to hear from someone who has actully done it. Hubbs is a field expert, not a breeder. I have bred many getula and triangulum in my day (as well as lots of other colubrids) but this is my first attempt at zonata.

The comments and thoughts specific to zonata that you have provided are what I was looking for. I would have thought it was a non-issue when I measured that female 3 times and came up with 24" each time, but...i just kept thinking "wow, she just looks small to imagine her laying eggs"

The other female that I have is a clutch mate to the one in the pic and looks nearly identical, but she is only about 18-20".
I think I am going to continue to feed the 24" female as much as she will eat (she is stil eating!) until Dec 1, and then cut her off on Dec 1 and gradually get her into full brumation by the end of December. Then I will brumate a full 3.5 months until about April 15...then try breeding her. The male is already down.

I am going to hold off on female #2 until next year.

Thanks for the advice!
Dean

Good reply Dean!

Take care and keep us posted here with updates and pics!!!

Billy
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Genesis 1:1

This is the 1st pair of agalma that i have ever owned.. They are on hold for someone right now, but if he decides not to take them i plan to breed them this year..

~ Mike

The Female above is about 27" & the male below is a bit larger

As I'd stated to you in a personal e-mail Dean, I thin you're A-ok with that 24" female. BY the way, how the heck does one post a pic on this thing???

Jerry

You post a picture using BBcode

[FOOimg]http://path/to/image.jpg[/FOOimg]

but without the FOO in the brackets ( just img and /img )

That's how I do it.
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3.0 WC; 0.3 CB L. getula californiae
1.0 CB L. getula nigrita
0.1.1 WC; 0.0.3 CH Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

Just my 2 cents on breeding agalma. years ago i had some and they bred like clock work with good eggs 3 out of the 4 years i bred them. i believe one of the keys to this subspecies is unlike other species do not wait for female to go into her first post hibernation shed. they were my earliest breeders ive ever had. start trying a week out of hibernation, and keep trying, and feed those males after breeding is over as they quit eating in july, at least for me. imho/jon