Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Just wanted to share pics of my new addition. We picked her up the past Show in Columbia. Wanna send a special thanks to Bill Albright of AHP Exotics for sending this beautiful animal home with me.

CBB Late 05 Albino Monocled Cobra, Naja kaouthia

CBB Late 05 Albino Monocled Cobra, Naja kaouthia

CBB Late 05 Albino Monocled Cobra, Naja kaouthia

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Thanks,
Jamie and Kayce
cantilxcotton1@gmail.com

0.1 Albino Monacled Cobra-(Lucifia)
2.3 Green Anoles
0.0.1 Super Hypo Tang. Baldie Leopard Gecko-(Tango)
0.0.2 Giant Albino Jungle Leopard Geckos
1.0 Dark Patternless Leopard Gecko(Giant?)-(Jax)
0.1 Ghost Albino Leopard Gecko
1.0 Hypo Tang Leopard Gecko-(Cryp)
0.1 Hybino Tang Leopard Gecko-(Sour)
0.1 Chocolate Albino Leopard Gecko-(October)
0.1 High Yellow Leopard Gecko-(Oats)
1.0 High Yellow Leopard Gecko-(Wyatt)
0.1 Mack Snow Leopard Gecko-(Potion)
0.1 Ghost Leopard Gecko-(Coffin)
1.0 Pastel Leopard Gecko-(Lemon)
0.1 Albino Leopard Gecko-(Kist)
0.1 Bell Albino Leopard Gecko
0.1 High Yellow Leopard Gecko
1.0 Harlequin Dalmation Crested Gecko-(Dali)
0.1 Creamsicle Super Dalimation Crested Gecko
1.0 Southern Painted Turtle-(Bat)
0.1 Eastern Cottonmouth-(Fat @$$)
0.2 House Cats-(Cali & Lilly)
0.1 Ausie Shepard-(Jackie)
1.0 Bully Boxer-(River)

I hope you have antivenin for this snake! Or have access!!
I noticed your list of animals you keep and the only venomous snake you have is a Cottonmouth.
Quite a step up!
Please be careful! You cannot afford a mistake with a Naja!

I am NOT preaching because I do not know what experience you have with venomous reptiles other than your Agkistrodon, but Naja are, and act quite differently than crotalids!

My thoughts and concerns echo Randals!
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Tim Cole
www.Designeratrox.com/
www.AustinReptileService.net
www.AustinReptileExpo.com/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<
Conservation through Education

And I'll make it a "third times a charm"....seriously, the species you are working with is typically fairly aggressive. It looks like you took that picture in your yard....I'd caution against that. Don't get me wrong, it's a very nice looking snake but like Randal and Tim have said, you have to be extra careful but if you've worked with cobras before, I'm sure you'll get the cob webs out (and wish that they acted more like cottonmouth!)....and in no way am I trying to negate your background or expertise because I don't know you, your age, or anything of the like. Have fun.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center

>>My thoughts and concerns echo Randals!
>>-----
>>Tim Cole
>>www.Designeratrox.com/
>>www.AustinReptileService.net
>>www.AustinReptileExpo.com/
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<
>>Conservation through Education
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

correct me if i'm worng, but if i were to pick any cobra species to keep due to "ease", it would be the monacleds. i've kept alot of cobras, with the exception of a few(kings,capes, and spitters come to mind), and i've always found the moancleds to be the most manageable(sp?))not saying they are baby-dolls by any means,either! either way, it does take some getting used to again! i haven't had a cobra in a couple of years, and won't for another year or so.. i do miss them, though! LOL

good luck with it either way!

another thing- who still says this-"i hope you have anti-venom for that!"? isn't it general knowledge that most hot keepers do not have anti-venom on hand? i hear the same thing over and over- "man, i got venom-1's number in my back pocket!"
maybe i'm wrong on this. please be careful, though!

I'll just bite my tongue on those comments.

>>correct me if i'm worng, but if i were to pick any cobra species to keep due to "ease", it would be the monacleds. i've kept alot of cobras, with the exception of a few(kings,capes, and spitters come to mind), and i've always found the moancleds to be the most manageable(sp?))not saying they are baby-dolls by any means,either! either way, it does take some getting used to again! i haven't had a cobra in a couple of years, and won't for another year or so.. i do miss them, though! LOL
>>
>> good luck with it either way!
>>
>>another thing- who still says this-"i hope you have anti-venom for that!"? isn't it general knowledge that most hot keepers do not have anti-venom on hand? i hear the same thing over and over- "man, i got venom-1's number in my back pocket!"
>> maybe i'm wrong on this. please be careful, though!
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

what was the point of that post then? ignorance? i'm not saying that its a great idea to keep a monacled if you don't have experience? please explain? especially with a post saying "ignorance is bliss, then saying you are going to bite youe tongue? email me at aircrew82@yahoo.com.... please explain to me why i'm being ignorant here. also, tell me how many hotkeepers you know have anti-venom on hand? i know one, and thats dean ripa, at the serpentarium(cape fear)

Please give me a name and I'd be happy to email you off the forum.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center

>>what was the point of that post then? ignorance? i'm not saying that its a great idea to keep a monacled if you don't have experience? please explain? especially with a post saying "ignorance is bliss, then saying you are going to bite youe tongue? email me at aircrew82@yahoo.com.... please explain to me why i'm being ignorant here. also, tell me how many hotkeepers you know have anti-venom on hand? i know one, and thats dean ripa, at the serpentarium(cape fear)
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

There was a monocled cobra that was so hard to work with and backed people into corners, a professional with vast experience with black mambas removed it from his facility.

I heard it got equal (or greater) feedback from the person who took in the snake.

All the professionals who have big hospital bill from kauothia (I will leave names off...even though it has been aired on NG and AP many times), they would probably all tell you they were easier to deal with than most of the other cobras.

Once they find an albino...it isn't dangerous anymore

hmmm. you could say that about all the people with huge bills due to copperhead bites, also... so many people say how copperheads are so easy to deal with, but then they get bit.

i was saying this from personel experience. the monacleds are the easiest cobra i have ever dealt with( the worst being forests) some say egyptians are easier to deal with- i've had one, and it was pretty damn agressive. please don't get me wrong- monacleds are VERY agressive, and definetely NOT!!!! for the beginner!
but as cobras go, they are the easiest in my experience.

Beautiful kaouthia James.

Just FYI for those folks wondering about James' experience with venomous, particularly elapids, I can personally vouch for the fact that he has kept and handled several species of Naja and at least one fun 'little' king in the 3 years I've known him. He kept many more before that. I wouldn't worry too much about his ability to safely keep this kaouthia.
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Chance Duncan
www.rivervalleyexotics.com

"Just FYI for those folks wondering about James' experience with venomous, particularly elapids, I can personally vouch for the fact that he has kept and handled several species of Naja and at least one fun 'little' king in the 3 years I've known him. He kept many more before that. I wouldn't worry too much about his ability to safely keep this kaouthia."

This information would have been very helpful at the BEGINNING of this thread! Thanks Chance.
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Tim Cole
www.Designeratrox.com/
www.AustinReptileService.net
www.AustinReptileExpo.com/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<
Conservation through Education

what difference does it make if YOU knew this guys experience level with hots. HE chose to buy one, HE will suffer the consequences if he is bitten. i for one am tired of people insulting and belittling people for buying a hot. just because you have never heard of this guy, doesnt mean he isnt qualified to own a hot snake.
nice snake buddy, and thanx for sharing the pics with us. and im sure i dont have to tell you, but will anyway, be careful and stay cool.

No one belittled or insulted the original post. I re-read all of them and didn't see anything that demeaned this person. He's been keeping cobras for a whopping three years....great, keep them for 20 years with a perfect record and there's probably more credibility. I see it all the time: someone says that they've been keeping a gaboon viper for two years and they are the self professed experts of Bitis gabonica. The way the original post was written, I, too, took it as coming from someone with very limited experience (and three years is still fairly limited experience if that is how long he's been keeping elapids). So what's the problem? Aren't you insulting this "expert" by telling him to be careful? If he's an expert, he doesn't need to be told. But I think we can all agree that the snake is indeed one very beautiful creature.

>>what difference does it make if YOU knew this guys experience level with hots. HE chose to buy one, HE will suffer the consequences if he is bitten. i for one am tired of people insulting and belittling people for buying a hot. just because you have never heard of this guy, doesnt mean he isnt qualified to own a hot snake.
>>nice snake buddy, and thanx for sharing the pics with us. and im sure i dont have to tell you, but will anyway, be careful and stay cool.
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Rob, I don't personally believe you were being demeaning to James. However, I do believe that 3 (somehow the " " didn't get into my first post) I've known him and he's kept elapids, then the time before that in which kept them, is probably a long enough time to prepare one to again raise a young kaouthia. In any case, I think the point has pretty well been beaten to death, as they say.
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Chance Duncan
www.rivervalleyexotics.com

the whole "ignorance is bliss" thing. i would be insulted by this response if it were the subject line after one of my posts. kinda sounds like you were calling the guy ignorant.?

"keep them for 20 years with a perfect record and there's probably more credibility."

Rob, with all due respect, you can't base everyone's experience and credibility on your own track record. There are PLENTY of zookeeper's and curator's that have been bitten, and more than a few that frequent this forum. Does that not make them credible? Although the initial post may have lead someone to believe he didn't have any experience with cobra's, doesn't mean that he doesn't. And just because he hasn't worked with venomous snakes for 20 years, doesn't make him less credible. Jim Harrison has milked snakes for years, yet you see him on tv pinning a mamba with his bare hands and showing an extreme amount of carelessness. He has been bitten numerous times, as has Bill Haast. Would you say they are more or less credible than you? Or more or less credible than the original poster? I know people that have been working with snakes for many years and have never been bitten, but I also know people that have been working with snakes for 3 or 5 years without a bite, that are much better handlers than the 20 year keeper's. What constitutes credibility?
And what does it take for some of these people to earn respect in the eyes of certain keeper's? I've been keeping for roughly 6 years, and have never been bit, but have had a close call or two. I also got into it the right way by researching, studying, finding a mentor, doing more research, finding a source for AV, and then getting licensed before I got my first hot...which was a southern copperhead. Would one say that makes for credibility?
And I am in no way trying to start an argument, I'm just curious as to how people can earn respect and credibility without having to keep snakes for 20 years.

First, I think you are taking my comments a bit too literally....I threw out 20 years not as an end all to what is the minimum requirement for keeping hots but merely to show that even with many years of experience, we are always in a state of learning but there needs to be some level of experience behind our credentials. I was also alluding to the important point that you see many novices (with limited years of experience) spouting off on these forums as if they have been working with hots for many years in a safe manner yet are giving such awful advice that it will put people in imminent danger. There's just a lot of bogus crap that I see here and on other forums.

It sounds like you took the proper steps to becoming a responsible and well informed venomous keeper; kudos to you for doing things the right way. I would encourage you to share the steps you took in doing things right.

As far as earning respect, simply from my standpoint, that comes with the key word "earning". You earn respect by what you contribute to the hobby/profession, the way you conduct yourself, the way you live your life, the kind of person that you are, your knowledge level, the way you communicate in an intelligent manner, etc. We are talking about respect as a hobbyist/professional, not as a person (every person should be given some level of respect). Does that mean you have to have worked with venomous herps for 20 years? Of course not! I have the world of respect, for example, for some of my staff who have worked with me professionally for a relatively short period of time but have gained my respect by the way they conduct themselves, care for my animals with an eye for detail, the way they trouble shoot, their imagination towards delivering conservation education messages, deal with the public, give advice, etc.

Now, in terms of taking shots at Jim Harrison, that is way off base. I know Jim well and he does assume a certain level of risk but there really are no ways around the risks that he takes. Each risk is a calculated risk that he visualizes in his mind every time he is working with a venomous herp; he does pay close attention to safety contrary to the comments that you made. To call Jim careless is a BIG LOAD OF YOU KNOW WHAT. Jim is one of the most careful guys I know and when you take into consideration how many snakes he has to milk on a daily basis, he really does have a great track record.

>>"keep them for 20 years with a perfect record and there's probably more credibility."
>>
>>Rob, with all due respect, you can't base everyone's experience and credibility on your own track record. There are PLENTY of zookeeper's and curator's that have been bitten, and more than a few that frequent this forum. Does that not make them credible? Although the initial post may have lead someone to believe he didn't have any experience with cobra's, doesn't mean that he doesn't. And just because he hasn't worked with venomous snakes for 20 years, doesn't make him less credible. Jim Harrison has milked snakes for years, yet you see him on tv pinning a mamba with his bare hands and showing an extreme amount of carelessness. He has been bitten numerous times, as has Bill Haast. Would you say they are more or less credible than you? Or more or less credible than the original poster? I know people that have been working with snakes for many years and have never been bitten, but I also know people that have been working with snakes for 3 or 5 years without a bite, that are much better handlers than the 20 year keeper's. What constitutes credibility?
>>And what does it take for some of these people to earn respect in the eyes of certain keeper's? I've been keeping for roughly 6 years, and have never been bit, but have had a close call or two. I also got into it the right way by researching, studying, finding a mentor, doing more research, finding a source for AV, and then getting licensed before I got my first hot...which was a southern copperhead. Would one say that makes for credibility?
>>And I am in no way trying to start an argument, I'm just curious as to how people can earn respect and credibility without having to keep snakes for 20 years.
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Maybe I did take it too literally. I was just trying to find out where the line was drawn. I know of Jim's reputation, and know what he has done for snakes, treatment, and conservation. And although I don't agree with him at times, I still respect him and what he's done, and what he does. But, unless he was doing it for the thrill factor or camera's, one can't help but think his actions with that mamba were careless at best. I do agree that his track record is remarkable for the amount of snakes he handles. But maybe it would be better if he didn't use certain methods?

Jim would be the best one to respond. But, I can say that having worked with these species for many years, if you need to "milk" them, there really are very few options in terms of techniques that are effective when it comes time to restrain them. Every session is unique and demands the utmost in concentration, visualization, focus and nerves of steel. I can't see Jim doing anything for the thrill factor when it comes to hots. He accepts the inherent risks of working with venomous just as any of us who do this professionally (I'm not consumed by it, but it's always in the back of your mind and that keeps you from becoming complacent). Hope this clarifies things a bit.

>>Maybe I did take it too literally. I was just trying to find out where the line was drawn. I know of Jim's reputation, and know what he has done for snakes, treatment, and conservation. And although I don't agree with him at times, I still respect him and what he's done, and what he does. But, unless he was doing it for the thrill factor or camera's, one can't help but think his actions with that mamba were careless at best. I do agree that his track record is remarkable for the amount of snakes he handles. But maybe it would be better if he didn't use certain methods?
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

He's not in the elite club...thats why he's getting all the crap.
And the ignorance is bliss, I'll bite my tongue is an oxymoron. If you were going to bite your tongue you wouldnt have posted anything, your just trying to stir the pot.

I suppose flaming is on its way.

lol, you guys are funny.

This is Jamie...

http://www.envenomated.com/photogallery.php?photo_id=550

he knows what he's doing.

Chad Minter
Author
Venomous Snakes of the Southeast
http://www.envenomated.com
http://www.envenomated.com/photogallery.php?photo_id=550

You're wearing shorts with that snake???? You're crazy! hehe

Yeah, he has a big snake with those shorts, but it's tucked in and not hangin out....

oh, you mean the cobra!!

well, if you get close enough to the mouth of a king cobra that you expect denim to protect you, you did something wrong.

I handle my snakes in socks, shorts, undies, whatever.

I even roadcruise *gasp* barefoot.

If you need stovepipe on your legs to protect you from a snake you're way too close.

I agree with that post,
I have respect for Mr. Carmichael and Mr. Harrison, They have dedicated their lives to working with these animals and educating others about them and they have a vast amount of experience.
That being said they are just as dangerous to this hobby as the inbred idiots keeping mambas in 10gal aquariums under their bed, maybe more so, because when the legislators and law enforcement officials look for advice on new laws they go to these individuals, who support banning venomous reptiles from the private sector for advice.
Because they have businesses that would likely be exempted from any bans they don't worry about it, although I would guess that if that type of legislation was enacted many years ago, many of the knowledable Zookeepers, responsible breeders/keepers and others, including those who have repeatedly voiced their support for bans on these forums, would not be in the fields they are in today without that ability to work hands on with venomous animals, without being affiliated with a Zoo or venom lab earlier in their lives.
Ryan Mccullah,

Your reasoning is so bent out of shape that your argument has zero validity. Can't say I've ever been called "dangerous" but I'll take it as a compliment in some way. You need to turn your comments around so that they should say "thanks to the inbred idiots who keep mambas in 10 gallon tanks under their bred, respected folks like Mr. Carmichael and Mr. Harrison (and there's many other respected folks on this and other forums....folks that run circles around me) who would normally back the individual's rights to own venomous herps have a hard time supporting the private rights to own venomous herps." Get your reasoning straightened out. With that being said, I did NOT say that I do support a ban for an individual's right to own venomous snakes; I simply said that it is "becoming inreasingly" difficult for me to support it UNLESS a solid procedure/permit system is in place. You are right though, because I have a great facility approved by the state, I am able to enjoy working with venomous herps on a daily basis w/out worrying about legislation to ban the ownership of venomous herps (it's a mute point here in Illinois because a private individual cannot own venomous herps). Re-read your post and I'm sure you'll notice that your argument is fairly weak.

>>
>>
>> I agree with that post,
>> I have respect for Mr. Carmichael and Mr. Harrison, They have dedicated their lives to working with these animals and educating others about them and they have a vast amount of experience.
>> That being said they are just as dangerous to this hobby as the inbred idiots keeping mambas in 10gal aquariums under their bed, maybe more so, because when the legislators and law enforcement officials look for advice on new laws they go to these individuals, who support banning venomous reptiles from the private sector for advice.
>> Because they have businesses that would likely be exempted from any bans they don't worry about it, although I would guess that if that type of legislation was enacted many years ago, many of the knowledable Zookeepers, responsible breeders/keepers and others, including those who have repeatedly voiced their support for bans on these forums, would not be in the fields they are in today without that ability to work hands on with venomous animals, without being affiliated with a Zoo or venom lab earlier in their lives.
>>Ryan Mccullah,
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

I took your advice(the part about re-reading my post, not the part about thanking inbred mamba keepers!)and several things stood out.
I'll agree lumping you in with dendroaspis handlers of questionable heritage was probably not the best way to word what I was saying or attempting to say, which is, bans simply don't work and people within the venomous community,people who should know better, supporting or making statements that seem to support bans(not neccesarily you), hurts all private keepers in a manner similar to when someone not qualified to own a venomous snake does something to draw media attention to venomous keepers. and in some of the states where bans have already been put in place I suspect such individuals played a role in the bans.

"your reasoning is so bent out of shape that your argument has zero validity"
I didn't really expect that you would agree with it, But it is my opinion and I feel it is a valid point.

I think that part of my feeling like I do about this is that many of the comments I have seen and heard and the attitude in general about banning venomous reptiles by some high profile individuals is so different from what I am used to seeing from people within the venomous community.
Many of the local zoological facilities here in central FL spend a great deal of time & effort supporting private keepers, helping to organize meetings and to show FL FWCC that private keeping should not be banned, not making a lot of comments that sound a whole lot like they support bans.

Ryan,

You seem like an intelligent person who can communicate his/her feelings well. I'll just say it one last time (on this thread), I am NOT opposed to the private keeping of venomous herps. I am opposed to the private keeping of herps in certain states where there are no regulations and very easy methods in place to acquire venomous herps with little to no training or experience. In those cases, it would be better to just have an all out ban on venomous herps until a system can be put in place to protect the public and protect the idiots who have no business keeping venomous herps. If there was a good system in place, I'd be all for it. I'll give you an example...this is just one of many potential ideas. Take the sport of falconry for instance (I keep raptors so I can see some similarities). The falconry community came up with a series of extremely difficult "weeding out" regulations that were recommended to federal authorities. This self policing basically showed a high level of seriousness w/in the falconry community in not making it easy for the "average joe" to get into the sport just because it's cool. To become a falconer you must go through several levels of approvals and undergo extensive mentorship and show a high level of dedication, seriousness and knowledge before becoming a falconer. Your facilities are inspected by federal officials and you pay an annual permit fee. It's tightly regulated but in the end, it provides a legal outlet for people to enjoy the sport of falconry. If we had something even remotely similar in place for the keeping of venomous, we wouldn't have a fraction of the problems we are currently facing. Believe me, no one is more adamaent about private rights to own herps that me. I am just one of those lucky ones who also gets to enjoy it as a profession and given protection to some degree from the law in that my wildlife center falls under a city government. Hope that clarifies things a bit.

>>
>>
>> I took your advice(the part about re-reading my post, not the part about thanking inbred mamba keepers!)and several things stood out.
>> I'll agree lumping you in with dendroaspis handlers of questionable heritage was probably not the best way to word what I was saying or attempting to say, which is, bans simply don't work and people within the venomous community,people who should know better, supporting or making statements that seem to support bans(not neccesarily you), hurts all private keepers in a manner similar to when someone not qualified to own a venomous snake does something to draw media attention to venomous keepers. and in some of the states where bans have already been put in place I suspect such individuals played a role in the bans.
>>
>> "your reasoning is so bent out of shape that your argument has zero validity"
>> I didn't really expect that you would agree with it, But it is my opinion and I feel it is a valid point.
>>
>> I think that part of my feeling like I do about this is that many of the comments I have seen and heard and the attitude in general about banning venomous reptiles by some high profile individuals is so different from what I am used to seeing from people within the venomous community.
>> Many of the local zoological facilities here in central FL spend a great deal of time & effort supporting private keepers, helping to organize meetings and to show FL FWCC that private keeping should not be banned, not making a lot of comments that sound a whole lot like they support bans.
>>
>> Ryan,
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Rob,
I can understand where your coming from, however, you seem to offer your point with pretzel logic.

You state,
" I am opposed to the private keeping of herps in certain states where there are no regulations and very easy methods in place to acquire venomous herps with little to no training or experience. In those cases, it would be better to just have an all out ban on venomous herps until a system can be put in place to protect the public and protect the idiots who have no business keeping venomous herps"

I cannot believe you made such a statement without giving it some thought. Venomous reptiles are kept in every state, with or without "permitting systems" in place. By enacting a government policy (of having a permit system in states), you will therefore "drive" the owners of venomous reptiles underground. Therefore, creating more problems with these "idiots" that you have a problem with.

Again you state,
"If there was a good system in place, I'd be all for it."

Now Florida has such a system that you desire, and it "works" most of the time. Other states have an out-right ban on keeping venomous reptiles in the private sector.

Some people might liken you to the pot that called the kettle black, because you are legally permitted to have venomous reptiles in your facility where the state your facility is located prohibits the keeping of venomous snakes in the private sector. Some people might think you are pontificating.

I thank God my state and Texas doesn't have these regs.

Again, most states do not have regulations against owning venomous reptiles, they leave it up to county and city governments to enact ordinances, etc., to prohibit the ownnership of venomous reptiles.

You are correct, there are people who have no business owning venomous snakes, just like there are some who have no buisness driving, owning a gun, etc., etc. You get my point I'm sure.

As far as the guy who dissed you and Jim Harrison, he didn't really know what he was talking about. Sure, Jim has been bitten, the law of averages is against him with the thousands of snakes he has handled over the years, I have been working with venomous snakes for 41 years, and yes, I've been tagged.
With that said,
I am AGAINST any STATE wanting to regulate the keeping of venomous reptiles by the private sector!
We can agree to disagree here.
Again I am AGAINST any STATE wanting to regulate the keeping of venomous reptiles by the private sector!

Randal Berry

Randal,
I did not "diss" Rob Carmichael and Jim Harrison or say anything about either of them being bitten, I simply disagreed with their seemingly hypocrytical stance on herp laws, much like you did in your post, but I think you did a better job of saying it in a clear manner.
BTW-I hope I used "Dissed/Diss" properly my ebonics language skills get rusty when I don't use them for a while.
Ryan,

Hypocritical in what way? Just curious. But you are right, Randal put it as he always does, straight as a bullet.

>>
>>
>> Randal,
>> I did not "diss" Rob Carmichael and Jim Harrison or say anything about either of them being bitten, I simply disagreed with their seemingly hypocrytical stance on herp laws, much like you did in your post, but I think you did a better job of saying it in a clear manner.
>> BTW-I hope I used "Dissed/Diss" properly my ebonics language skills get rusty when I don't use them for a while.
>> Ryan,
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Randal, I can agree with you on many things you said. However, we unfortunately have to live in a country that does not hold onto such ideals.

I am a person who tends to think Texas is like another country and having not been there in many years or spent much time there... I make myself believe it holds more true to protecting freedoms than other states.

I would love to not be able to support a state that regulates individuals. I wish there were no laws prohibiting people from things they want to do. But I am nieve.

The problem is that the law works in a way where it is relatively easy to regulate on such issues when it can be labeled under public safety and does not deal with a constitutionally protected interest. Owning/housing venomous snakes hardly comes close to being a constitutionally protected interest.

With this being said, we need to be thinking proactively. While a permit system will not solve all problems with people keeping irresponsibly or illegally, it can protect some of our issues. If we have this permit in place, it allows for people to put forth the dedication to obtain these snakes legally.

By supporting a permit system in all states, even yours, you are protecting the future. Bans are easy to place and they are much cheaper for the government. It is up to the people on this side of the fence to come up with solutions for their state ahead of time.

Unfortunately I am too young to have come up with this solution for my state, so my options are to move to another state or work on the professional side. Being very conservation minded, I chose to stay.

I believe the guy he was referring to that "dissed" Rob and Jim was me.

"As far as the guy who dissed you and Jim Harrison, he didn't really know what he was talking about."

I don't ever recall "dissing" Rob, go back and re-read my posts.
As far as Jim is concerned, although I respect him, when you SEE SOMETHING WITH YOUR OWN EYES, it's hard not get get certain impressions. So I stand on my comments, and do know what I'm talking about. Some people have their heads buried so far up certain people's butts that they can't see anything wrong with what those people do. If anyone else had pinned that snake like that, people would be all over that person. But, because of who that person is, and because of the zoo, noone wants to admit that there was anything wrong with it, especially fellow zookeeper's.

The hardest thing about a permit system tho is for the lawmakers to levae it alone once it is in place. Lawmakers that don't know much about the issue tend to come back and over regulate, increase fees, etc after a permit system is in place.

Not saying it is better or worse than what currently exists... I think we all get the feeling we're between a rock and a hard place and it is difficult to tell which path to take.

Just my $.02

Hey Randal, in actuality, this is a topic that I have struggled with for many years. As both a private hobbyist and someone who does it professionally, I get caught on both sides of the issues. Unfortunately, in my position, I see the worst case scenarios time in and time out and there are times when I wonder if there are any good folks out there keeping hots (of course there are, just a over generalization). And yes, I am a bit of a hypocrite in some of my reasoning but it's typically based on the experiences that I go through in running this place (as Jim Harrison will probably agree with). But, is there ONE BEST system that we can use to make this work? I sure wish there was. It's so complex but on the other hand, maybe we've made it too complex. In Texas, that has very little in the way of regulations (although I still can't figure out why you can't keep american alligators w/out crossing the great divide!), it seems that things are running pretty smoothly. Aside from a newspaper clipping or two every now and then, you don't see folks from TX making headlines for doing stupid things. My only thought is that if we don't become proactive in trying to find ways to develop a system (whatever that might entail) we are putting our future in the hands of people who could give a crap about our hobby...that's what I want to avoid. So where do we go from here? Heck if I know. So, I wouldn't go so far as agreeing to disagree because I really couldn't find myself disagreeing with too many points that you made (it actually made me re-think the way I am approaching this issue).

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center

>>Rob,
>>I can understand where your coming from, however, you seem to offer your point with pretzel logic.
>>
>>You state,
>>" I am opposed to the private keeping of herps in certain states where there are no regulations and very easy methods in place to acquire venomous herps with little to no training or experience. In those cases, it would be better to just have an all out ban on venomous herps until a system can be put in place to protect the public and protect the idiots who have no business keeping venomous herps"
>>
>>I cannot believe you made such a statement without giving it some thought. Venomous reptiles are kept in every state, with or without "permitting systems" in place. By enacting a government policy (of having a permit system in states), you will therefore "drive" the owners of venomous reptiles underground. Therefore, creating more problems with these "idiots" that you have a problem with.
>>
>>Again you state,
>>"If there was a good system in place, I'd be all for it."
>>
>>Now Florida has such a system that you desire, and it "works" most of the time. Other states have an out-right ban on keeping venomous reptiles in the private sector.
>>
>> Some people might liken you to the pot that called the kettle black, because you are legally permitted to have venomous reptiles in your facility where the state your facility is located prohibits the keeping of venomous snakes in the private sector. Some people might think you are pontificating.
>>
>>I thank God my state and Texas doesn't have these regs.
>>
>>Again, most states do not have regulations against owning venomous reptiles, they leave it up to county and city governments to enact ordinances, etc., to prohibit the ownnership of venomous reptiles.
>>
>>You are correct, there are people who have no business owning venomous snakes, just like there are some who have no buisness driving, owning a gun, etc., etc. You get my point I'm sure.
>>
>>As far as the guy who dissed you and Jim Harrison, he didn't really know what he was talking about. Sure, Jim has been bitten, the law of averages is against him with the thousands of snakes he has handled over the years, I have been working with venomous snakes for 41 years, and yes, I've been tagged.
>>With that said,
>> I am AGAINST any STATE wanting to regulate the keeping of venomous reptiles by the private sector!
>>We can agree to disagree here.
>>Again I am AGAINST any STATE wanting to regulate the keeping of venomous reptiles by the private sector!
>>
>>Randal Berry
-----
Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

I am also one of the one's that FIRMLY believes in a permit system, just like the one in Florida. Not because I think it's going to cut down on the number of bites, but feel that it is a way for responsible people to be able to keep snakes in a legal manner. A permit system just won't cut down on the number of bites by private keeper's. After all, Florida makes the headlines more than anywhere else, and they have the best system in place. We are all in a tough position as far as private keeping goes. I also understand the frustration of seeing more and more new people, with no experience or guidance, wanting or keeping hots. I want you and Randal to know that I have the utmost respect for what you and Jim do, and am by now means flaming or trying to belittle anyone. But, I'm also one of the ones that doesn't pull any punches when it comes to how my views are with certain things. Whether agreed upon or not, I have my views, and they are for good reason, not just to pick on anyone.
Well, maybe I pick on some people. But that's for good reason as well. Hopefully this may clarify things a little bit.

Hey Rob!
I just made a post in another thread here in the Venomous forum that relates to your "Where do we go from here" question.

forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1196414,1197649

Take care!
Mike
-----
It is said that 1 out of every 4 people are mentally unbalanced. Think of your 3 closest friends, if they're normal, then it's you.

Rob,
I have a tremendous amount of respect for you and of your knowledge of animals, especially venomous ones.
We have met several times and discussed reptiles, etc.

You make very good points, and it also opens my mind a little more.

I just don't believe we need a Ban on Venomous reptiles in the private community.

Also, TJP and Ryan, I apologize to both of you for my comments, sometimes I get a tad upset on the subject of banning reptiles and people making things personal.

Randal

No need to apologize to me Randal,no offense taken. I understand that we all get pretty worked up over this, I think anytime these subjects are being discussed, everyone benefits, if it gets a little heated it is because we're passionate about the subject!
Ryan,

No reason to apologize, Randal. Everyone gets worked up about about these topics, at least the ones that care do. Some of my comments probably came off as personal, but weren't. I was just making certain points that some may not see, and some that certain people probably won't agree upon.

I feel likewise about you Randal. Believe me, no one wants to see the rights or private individuals protected more than me. My closest friends keep hots and I wouldn't want them to lose their chance to enjoy what they love to do. I'll do everything in my power to protect that....but, I just don't want to see many of the idiots who lurk here ruin it for the responsible folks like us.

>>Rob,
>>I have a tremendous amount of respect for you and of your knowledge of animals, especially venomous ones.
>>We have met several times and discussed reptiles, etc.
>>
>>You make very good points, and it also opens my mind a little more.
>>
>>I just don't believe we need a Ban on Venomous reptiles in the private community.
>>
>>Also, TJP and Ryan, I apologize to both of you for my comments, sometimes I get a tad upset on the subject of banning reptiles and people making things personal.
>>
>>Randal
-----
Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

I agree with what Randal said.
Besides if anyone actually thinks that banning private keepers from keeping venomous is going do anything other than keep the honest person from keeping hots is nuts. Its like banning guns with the idea that it will keep criminals from having them.

I will vouch for James in his ability to keep this kaouthia. James and I lived together from 2003-2004 and he gained quite a bit of elapid (cobras and mambas) experience in that time period alone. We supported a rather large collection of hots. Althought his timeline for his last cobra is off since that would have been around July 2004, so only 2 years.

Anja

Just don't stick it in a car trunk and drive a few hundred miles and you should be fine.