Reptile & Amphibian Forums

So is everyone in agreement on Canebrakes being a geographical varient of the Timber?
I'm wondering if anyone can post some pics of newborn Timbers.
I had some Timbers from PA born that had patterns identical to the Canebrake patterning and was wondering if this changes as the snake become mature or if temperature had something to do with it.
The female (which had seven babies) was remarkably small, less than two feet in length. Thanks

and always have been. Several years ago there was a giant debate on this forum about this subject. One person (he was from Georgia or the Carolinas or one of the coastal states) was especially adamant that canebreaks were a very different snake and there was no mistaking them. A couple weeks later Dave Prada posted some Timbers from his New York dens and that same person replied "nice canes!", lol.

I always used to point out that there was far more difference between Az. molossus and Texas molossus than between the timber populations yet everybody accepted them as one subspecies (interestingly recent DNA suggest that Texas and Az. molossus truely are different subspecies with the dividing line somewhere in New. Mexico)

Cheers,

Rich

Nice Canes lol Thats classic! I would be interested in knowing your philosophy regarding the Mollosus bind.
Have you thrown together any justifications for your suggestion? I guess what i'm wondering is before the DNA research, what was it that made you feel so strong that they warrent a subspecific status?
On a personal note, i've always felt there was a strong argument that would link the Opheodrys to the Coluber c. spp.,linneage, but there are probably few that would share my opinion.
I have worked with Mollosus, but never the Texas. Definately in my top five for Crotalids. Thanks, Leo
Skin & Scales

from Texas and Az. were different subs. I was just using the point that there was far more difference between Az. and Texas molossus than there was between "atricaudatus" and northern horridus populations, yet nobody disagreed with the taxonomy of molossus. The DNA stuff is very recent.I do tend to agree with it however, also agree with the placing of basiliscus and totonacus into molossus ( now I have said these two are actually just coastal molossus for the past 25 years, the intergrade zones with both nominate molossus and nigrescens all along the mid-elevations of the Sierras is immense) and the sinking of oaxacus into nigrescens. Of course it is all just in the begining stages and much could change with future sampling.

As for the differences, Az. molossus and Texas molossus have completely different pattern types which are very obvious when seen side by side. When they are side by side in the same cage one can also see that Texas molossus have a much shorter rounded snout and Az. snakes have a longer pointed snout.

I have kept some Brewster Co,TX C.Molossus for around 4 years now, 1 I purchased and 1 I collected myself near Terlingua, after My C.Adamanteus they are my favorite, they are also the most nervous and easily stressed snakes I have ever kept.

some advice that was posted on this forum helped me a lot with mine, the poster recommended using a UV light with this species and when I did their feeding improved a lot. any first hand experiences with this species in captivity is greatly appreciated as there is very little(as in NONE) availabe elsewhere.
Ryan Mccullah,

No disrespect intended, but does one of the molossus reach twice the adult size of the other?

How about diet? Does one of the molossus eat only once or twice in a season in the wild while the other eats throughout the season?

How about breeding? Does one of the molossus breed once every few years and the other breed reliably every season?

What about location? Is one of the molossus montane when the other is lowland swamp?

How about denning? Does one snake den while the other brumate alone?

Just curious why anyone would WANT to combine these snakes in the first place, we sure have split MILKSNAKES for less phenotypic data...totally counterproductive to our hobby.

We keep sticticeps seperate in the hobby. Why? Because they're "different-looking" and it's fun.

We keep brooksi seperate. Why? see above reason. Goini? same thing.

Temporalis? I mean, c'mon guys. Let's not make the so-called "scientists" job easier. One day there'll be ONE SNAKE with one Gssp (facetious, BTW).

Thanks. I feel better.

Chris