Reptile & Amphibian Forums

i just saw on cnn news of the indiana confiscation/bite story. national tv, news conference with tons of pics being taken of the snakes. i was kinda surprised it was on cnn is all.

FEDERAL REGULATION IS COMEING

if fed reg was going to happen it would be here bt now. the FEDs have bigger fish to fry. war, drugs, terror. in kentucky, afew years ago, hots were legal to keep. now not so. why??? was it a highly publicized envenomation?? NO. a drug dealer used hots to guard his stash. when he was busted agents discovered his unusual method of safeguarding his wares. the state rep made a case that if hot snakes were being used in such a manner, that they should be outlawed. and so they are. i know, and you know that this in utter nonscense. but it is what it is.

Sure, Feds have better things to do but it only takes a state rep to introduce a bill and have it passed to make it a state law...and, for some state reps, they like to get easy bills passed to help build their credentials. This is an easy, no brainer bill to pass because there would be very little opposition to it. So, irresponsible keepers ARE RUINING IT FOR THE RESPONSIBLE folks out there; it's not just drug dealers and other losers out there messing things up for us....and, based on what I see on this website, as much as I hate to say it, I am leaning towards supporting these types of bans as well (unless very strict procedures, protocols, licensing/fees, etc are instituted....Florida would be a good example).

>>if fed reg was going to happen it would be here bt now. the FEDs have bigger fish to fry. war, drugs, terror. in kentucky, afew years ago, hots were legal to keep. now not so. why??? was it a highly publicized envenomation?? NO. a drug dealer used hots to guard his stash. when he was busted agents discovered his unusual method of safeguarding his wares. the state rep made a case that if hot snakes were being used in such a manner, that they should be outlawed. and so they are. i know, and you know that this in utter nonscense. but it is what it is.
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

"Sure, Feds have better things to do but it only takes a state rep to introduce a bill and have it passed to make it a state law...and, for some state reps, they like to get easy bills passed to help build their credentials. "

I agree 100% with Rob. Here in NY, there hasn't been a snakebite in years by a keeper, and the one (a gaboon), was a zookeeper.
The impending laws were in talks way before that. All it took was some nittwit keeping a tiger in NYC, the HSUS, and a nobody politician that needed to make himself look good to change the permit requirements. Snakes had nothing to do with it. The idiot Governor (Pataki) who kept certain reptiles HIMSELF signed the proposed legislation into law, even though one of the animals HE kept was in the restrictions. Go figure. So even though you feel that Fed's have better things to worry about, the HSUS (who have alot more power than people think), and an upandcoming politician, do not.

i guess my point is this. i dont think the FEDERAL gov will pass legislation on this front. that doesnt mean the state legislature wont take up issue. this is a state by state matter, not a federal matter. that is why most every state has different laws for keeping hots, crocs, bears, big cats etc. some states require permits, some dont, and some outlaw the practice all together(illinois).

anyone got a link to an article about NY reptiles and Pataki being fined? that is funny! (the second part)
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Bryan, Atlanta GA

1-0-0 Rescued Ball Python - Apep
0-0-1 Rescued Bearded Dragon - Zeus
0-0-1 Rescued Non-Alpha Green Iguana - Bud
1-2-0 Rescued Rats... no wait... ROTTEN Little Cats - Ra, Bastet, Isis
0-0-1 Rescued Fit and Trim Panda Hamster - Mr. Fluffy
1-0-0 Horse... whoops... BIG Golden Retriever - Jake
0-1-0 Wife
2-0-0 Kids

well if the state does ban hots it wont be met with much resistance. What people fail to realize is that people keeping hot snakes, and general keeprs too, are a minority who deal with the noncute and noncuddly. The general population do not understand this interest, dont really care anyways,and when they hear of Mambas next door they suffer knee jerk reactions that cause poor legislation to be passed.

If there was a way to police this hobby effectively we might have a chance. Florida has a good program in place and its a pity more states cannot adopt their approach to this issue. Getting ones VRL goes a long way towards showing proficiency and dedication. It takes a while but it is well worth it in the end when you consider that you are "officially" recognized as a knowledgeable keeper of venomous reptiles by an agency that is charged with enforcing regulations about said hobby.
Its a shame we have nitwits in this hobby who ruin it for those that play by the rules...
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Cheers
Lateralis
"I would rather be precisely wrong than approximately right"
Marion "Doc" Ford

the saddest part about it is that some of these experienced keepers don't see the benefit of having a permit requirement in place. yes it's possible to get around but if the people that have the permits are honest it's impossible, especially under florida's requirements. When I moved down here I had one person say at a show in orlando that he'd sign the paperwork that day if I'd pay cash for a snake, that's crazy. Granted I have years of working with venomous but he didn't know that, he just knew that I had CASH.

One thing people don't understand is that we all know nobody has been bitten by an escaped venomous but it's very possible. What happens if during the summer while an inexperienced keeper that is keeping his black mamba a secret from everyone gets bitten and the snake get's loose. Now this person has a very quick anaphylaxic reaction and is unable to capture the snake before collapsing. now we have this snake running loose and it finds it's way out of the house. This snake is mistaken by a local kid as a southern black racer and he goes to catch it, wham he's bitten and in the mean time, his little brother is with him and he's bitten. That's a very possible scenerio, now if it was legal but regulated and this person was required to tell his neighbors that he had this snake, is that kid going to pick up this huge black racer, I think not. Not only that he has gotten the training before hand and if doing things correctly he wouldn't have gotten bitten to begin with.

The risk to me, my family, and my neighbors is why I no longer keep hots. Should people be allowed to keep them, if it's in a legal, regulated manner than yes. Remember people there is no RIGHT in the constitution that says we can keep venomous reptiles.

The same thing that is happening to Pit bulls is going to happen to venomous reptiles. However, you all have the oppertunity to prevent all out bans if you try to get legal regulations such as permits and basic husbandry requirements in place.
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Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons:::

1.0 striped vanilla
1.0 spider
1.2 Citrus Ghost and hets
1.2 Albino and hets
2.3 het Pied
0.6 50% poss het pied
1.1 Pastel (male has additional gene going on with him)
a bunch of normal female breeders
a bunch of normal female holdbacks and several rescued normal males

0.1 columbian boa, she's a feeding monster, controls my
over production of rats, lol
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa, another rat eating monster
1.1 corns

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

The only part of that argument I disagree with is the part about the black mamba being confused with a black racer. The black mamba gets the name from the color of the inside of the mouth. The snake is not black.

~~Greg~~

I know that. I have seen several black mamba's that are the exact same dark grey as some southern black racers, ex. in rapides parish in louisiana, I never saw a black southern black racer, they were all grey and I was using that as my comparison, should have gotten more specific or used a different species that was more obvious.
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Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons:::

1.0 striped vanilla
1.0 spider
1.2 Citrus Ghost and hets
1.2 Albino and hets
2.3 het Pied
0.6 50% poss het pied
1.1 Pastel (male has additional gene going on with him)
a bunch of normal female breeders
a bunch of normal female holdbacks and several rescued normal males

0.1 columbian boa, she's a feeding monster, controls my
over production of rats, lol
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa, another rat eating monster
1.1 corns

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

Your assuming that the hypothetical mamba keeper is going to apply for the permit and notify his neighbors, not just secretly keep it regardless of the law. If we could pass a law requiring every one to use common sense that would be useful!!!

many venomous snake collections turn up in places where there are complete bans. Even here in florida with a good system in place, people keep them without obtaining a permit, they usually get caught, FWC does not joke around when it comes to that, as it should be.

Ryan,

While I don't like seeing what we assume, or may/may not be, our basic rights, being infringed upon, taken away or restricted, I can see & support some types of regulations.

Unfortunately, careless individuals make things hard on everyone. I'm an experienced snake enthusiast that has recently suffered the end results of such.

I was supposed to do a reptile exhibit at a local school for their Fall Carnival. It was stated that the animals had to remain caged, which I didn't like but understood & agreed to.

The week before our carnival, another school had their fall carnival and someone was allowed to bring a snake. Somone got bit and everyone overacted. I was told that I couldn't bring my snakes, but other reptiles were fine.

Since snakes make up the majority of my reptile collection and my 10-ft Burmese was to be the "Shock & Awe" factor, I canceled.

A mere "permit" is worthless, in my opinion. Any fool with money can then keep venomous reptiles. In one State, for a mere $300 per year and a clean criminal record, you can own an automatic weapon (machine gun, etc...). I know of a few unstable individuals that could qualify and the thought of them having one petrifies me.

I could support a type of requirement course (similar to the hunter safety courses) and reasonable fees to cover the costs of the course and possible on-site inspections. I wouldn't jump out of my seat and say, "Hey! Let's do this & that...", unless steps were already being taken to regulate or ban venomous reptiles.

Costs must be kept low so that the underprivileged are not left out. With all of this dang "earmarking" taking place, by BOTH political parties, this could easily be achieved.

Similar to what Rob mentioned in a thread below this one, about the falconry, a herpetological organization could possibly step in & save the day. My main concern is the "little guy" or "average joe" getting left out due to high costs and too many requirements/regulations. Any of you big-time herp organizations up to the task? I'd gladly join your organization if part of my fees went to curb the costs of venomous regulations.

I doubt it if it will make it to the Federal level, any time soon, at least, but, it sure wouldn't surprise me any.

Just my two cents worth!

Have a great day!
Mike

PS
Can anyone give me a link to FL's regulations? I grew up & spent most of my life in central FL (Apopka) and with ailing/aging parents still there, there's a chance I may move back at some point.

Thanks!
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It is said that 1 out of every 4 people are mentally unbalanced. Think of your 3 closest friends, if they're normal, then it's you.

Link to Florida Venomous Regs:

Link

Thank you for the link.

Could you answer two questions I have?

1. What are they accepting as "experience"? I'm wondering how they expect a person to gain experience, legally. I read where education can account for up to 1/2, but I'm curious as to what they're allowing. I doubt they'd accept "I've had this EDB for 3 years (without a permit) and now I want to get a permit for it."

2. Can a person from another State that doesn't require a permit purchase a venomous reptile while visiting FL?

Thanks for your time!

Take care!
Mike
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It is said that 1 out of every 4 people are mentally unbalanced. Think of your 3 closest friends, if they're normal, then it's you.

The experience must be carefully documented, as in a log of each and every hour spent, the date etc.. signed/initialed by the licensed person or facility where you are getting the training.

If you do not have a valid FL permit you cannot purchase a venomous reptile in FL, as in physically taking possesion of it.
You can purchase it and have it shipped to your state.
Ryan,

Thank you!

Mike
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It is said that 1 out of every 4 people are mentally unbalanced. Think of your 3 closest friends, if they're normal, then it's you.