Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Just some photos of a baby EBT. Also, I am wondering how everyone keeps hatchlings (communal or separate)? I currently have four in a large 18" x 36" Rubbermaid with plenty of hiding areas both on the warm end and the cool end and I wanted to make sure this is ideal.
Thanks!

Cute babies!
I keep all the hatchlings here in family groups, but occasionally have to segregate bullies or runts.

Ditto to Steph, and nice camera. I try to feed the hatchlings separately as often as I can. Nice new growth on the close-up pictures.

Thanks to you both!
I feed outside of their enclosure, in a small deli container (individually) with about 1/4" of lukewarm water (they also eat their favourite foods outside of the water so that I can supplement). They seem to feed better in a small amount of water and I figure this will also keep them hydrated. Also, hopefully, by feeding outside the enclosure, they'll become somewhat conditioned to feeding responses outside of the enclosure so there will be no nipping at sibling's appendages.
Thanks again!

This is how they are currently set up.

I much prefer using thermostatically controlled heat tape as spot lights are an incredible waste of energy and I am always nervous about the fire hazard. The turtles have the option of hiding and burying in 85F substrate or 75F substrate so I think this should suit them well. I am currently using peat moss but I am thinking I might switch to untilled sphagnum moss that hasn't decayed and been processed. I have a few clumps in there just for some added humidity. Does anyone prefer untilled sphagnum moss over peat moss?

I prefer sphagnum. I've been using it for a very long time, and I'm comfortable with it. I allow my hatchlings to dry out periodically, and I can predict both when the sphagnum will dry out and when I'll need to rehydrate. Plus, I just love the way it smells when you open up a fresh bag...sniff, aaaaahhhh. Seriously, for hatchlings I use sphagnum exclusively. As the turtles get older, and require less dampness, I'll switch over to something else (varies by species). Another benefit of sphagnum that I've found...the type that I purchase is fairly raw and still in clumps. It can be washed. I'll do this nearly a dozen times before it needs replacing.

Heat tape is ok, but I've always found that it dries the substrate too quickly.

I know that there's a lot of debate concerning UVA and UVB lighting for box turtles. Well, I can only say that I'm a big fan. I've been doing this for a while now, both with and without full spectrum lighting. My results have been DRASTICALLY better with the addition of UVA/UVB flourescent tubes. I'm now experimenting with the Powersun UV bulb, but the hatchlings seem to shy away from the heat. The older turtles and my ornates love the Powersun. Interestingly, since I've gone up to using the higher output 10.0 bulb I actually have seen basking behavior in my T.c.ssp hatchlings. I'm talking full-on, legs outstretched, "pond turtle like" basking. In my opinion, full spectrum lighting is a MUST!

We calculated it out in my college physics class not too many years ago...my memory is fuzzy, but I think a 60 watt bulb came out to 2 cents per month for 24 hour/day usage. Doesn't heat tape actually use up more juice?

Yep, I am strong advocate for UVA/B exposure in diurnal species and the hatchlings are under a ReptiSun 5.0 bulb (about 6 inches above them). I am going to get some raw sphagnum after I use up this peat moss. I like the peat moss since it is sphagnum but since it is more particulate, it will likely dry out quicker and is a little messier.

That heat tape arrangement in the photo is using 30-40 watts (~20 watts per foot x 2 feet). The reason bulbs are less efficient as a means for heating is because most of the energy is converted to light, whereas all of the energy is converted to heat in heat tape. Since I already have the fluorescent bulb setting the photoperiod, there's really no need for more light - but I still need a heat source. I would likely need something greater than a 60 watt bulb for any appreciable thermal gradient. It then makes more sense to me to use a device where all electricity is converted to heat energy. Plus, the risk of fire has put me off heat bulbs entirely. No matter how many precautions one takes, random events occur and you always hear about herp related fires being caused by fallen heat lamps. Heat tape is not without risk, however, but the risk is nil provided the current is regulated through a rheostat or thermostat.
Cheers!

Great! I apologize, I assumed that you didn't have any lighting over them when I didn't see it in the photo.

Some people swear by peat, probably for the same reason that I swear by sphagnum...familiarity. Both are perfectly fine as long as they are controlled properly. The one and only time I used peat, it ended up stuck in the hatchlings' eyes! Ditto with the compressed coconut material.

I thought that maybe you mentioned it because there is no lighting evident in the photo, no apology needed. I had taken the top off for the picture.
Here's a photo with the top in place:

Cheers.

Ok, I'm counting 5 different commercial food products along with calcium/D3 and multivitamin for dusting the living prey that you offer(varied, no doubt), UVA/UVB lighting, proper hiding spots, thermostatically controlled temperatures, a relatively large enclosure for hatchlings, as well as proper substrate. You have only asked a few questions on this forum, so you must have done a lot of reading BEFORE acquiring these turtles. You have obviously learned from other peoples' mistakes! You, sir, are well on your way to raising healthy and happy Box turtles. Nicely done.

I have kept snakes and lizards for over 10 years and I research turtles for a living, but I have never kept a turtle in captivity. I have a good knowledge on reptile husbandry that extends across all taxa and a great knowledge on turtle life history in the wild, though there really is no better source of captive husbandry information than forums like these where I can learn from people who have actually kept them in captivity.

Thanks for the accolades, I intend to raise these turtles with the care and attention that I have with my other slithery friends. Box turtles have always been a dream species of mine so I have essentially been researching them and reading up on care for many years.

I do have a question though. How do you limit hatchling food consumption? That is, do you restrict the amount or the time allowed to feed? I currently allow them to eat as much as they want in 20 minutes. Would you recommend something different?
Thanks!

I usually allow the hatchlings here about 15 to 30 minutes to eat, so 20 minutes sounds ok to me. It might depend more on how much time elapses between your offering of the food and their starting to eat it. Some hatchlings might 'think it over' for a while before getting started.
Nice setup by the way!

Thanks, Steph! Yeah, I noticed that in the hatchlings. A couple eat right away and a couple take a little while before deciding to eat. I'm trying to give them 20 minutes after I see them take the first bite.
Cheers.

Baby box turtles are very rarely encountered in the wild even by experienced researchers icluding myslef because they live their first few years underground. They also overheat quickly in hot sun. so this is why they spend most of the time underground.So they dont get uv light at all

I disagree.

Hatchlings may overwinter in the nest (underground) their first winter, to be sure, but they do not spend years underground.

Baby box turtles will spend alot of time hiding under the cover of leaf litter or vegetation, but they still need, and get, exposure to some sunlight (and the UV rays that come with it).

Probably the reason, or reasons, that they are difficult to find is because they are very well camouflaged, they are very secretive, and they are very small.

If you want to see the effects of a LACK of UV light, all you have to do is search various rescue and educational websites and take a look at some of the horrifically deformed turtles that have been deprived of adequate UV while they were young. It is truly heartbreaking to see.

"So they dont get uv light at all."

Ok, so you rarely encounter them during your research and you can jump to this conclusion? UV light permeates the atmosphere outdoors regardless of direct sunlight. A true researcher would know that you can't make statements like the one that punctuated your post.

Regardless, my post does not address UV exposure of wild box turtles. I shy away from that...talking about what they get "in the wild". I can't mimic the wild, even if I keep the turtles outdoors. Nothing about captivity is natural! I can only comment on my results. I've clearly had better results since the addition of UVA/UVB lighting. I'm not alone, either. Why are people so resistant to this? What do I stand to benefit from falsely recommending full spectrum lighting? I merely hope that people can learn from my, and other peoples', mistakes.

It's the same with varying the diet and feeding greens. You can draw on the experiences of people who have headstarted or raised dozens or hundreds of hatchlings, or you can listen to people who have one or two turtles. The father in me realizes that people often need to experience their own failure in order to learn. It's a real shame, however, that an innocent turtle may suffer from it. I just don't get the resistance. I've been cruising other forums lately, and it's a common theme everywhere..."What is the minimum that I can do to keep my pet alive?"

It comes down to "What can I do?" vs. "What should I do?"
CAN a turtle survive not having UVA/UVB?...maybe some will
CAN a turtle survive being fed only Reptomin?...maybe some will
CAN a turtle live in a 5 gallon bucket?...maybe some will
CAN they survive without vitamin/mineral supplements?...maybe
SHOULD these things be done?...With all that we know...NO!

The physiology of a hatchling turtle makes it difficult to see errors in the short-term. What you are doing to your turtle now may not be evident for years. The most common problem that is seen...the turtles end up looking really stupid! Shells that are too small, pyramiding, lumpy shells, soft shells, and shells that are grossly deformed. Do you want a stupid looking turtle? I have stupid looking turtles. I'd take pictures, but they are brumating. I fell into the traps...the freeze dried krill diet of the 80's, the Reptomin diet of the 90's. "Complete Nutrition"...bull! Who knows what internal problems are reflected in external abnormalities? However, at every step of the way, my husbandry has improved. I've learned both from my own mistakes and others'. Hatchling survivability, growth, and general behavior have all improved. At the very least, my turtles don't look stupid anymore.

It may not result in immediate death, or it may. People say, "I haven't had any turtles die, so I must be doing everything right." If that's your measure of success, logically, Michael Jackson's parents did everything right. Behavior, breeding, weight, coloration, physical appearance are all indicators. If you have adult male and female box turtles, you should be getting at least 3-8 hatchlings per year per female. That's just one measure of success.

I had better just stop now. Sorry for the long rant, but it's terribly frustrating.

I have no pretense aside from wanting to help people raise healthy turtles and keep them that way. Corny, but true.

Underdog, I'm sorry for taking out my frustration on your post.

Here's my question...why the resistance? Please help me understand.

I understand where everyone is coming. maybe i shouldn't of said "at all". i can only say that i rarely use UV light fixture. for my hatchling i bring them outside and keep an eye on them they spend little time in the sun then dig down. with the winter months coming i bring all my hatchling in my indoor setup i put the UV light on but i rarely see them out so its off more then it is on. and as far as captivity goes yes there is nothing natural about there are no fruits and greens like that in the wild. we do this because we want the best for our turtles. we try everything we can, to make them healthy .. but there are some that do die not because lack of care its just nature. just like in the wild. i see all over in pets store that there setups are horrific. i see animals in breeding rack crammed into small enclosers and no room at all, with just some newspapers and a water dish. mixed species boas with pythons, tree boas not even having any branches in there cages. these are the people we need to advocate against.i always see box turtles with no nutrition in there diets, all i see is iceberg lettuce. i try in and out time after time to educate them and they always say they'll be fine. so please yes i made a mistake but im not completely wrong so take the lynch and chains off of me and take me out of the guillotine

I wonder what makes one an experienced researcher. I suspect claiming to prove a negative is likely not part of one's repertoire. Failing to see something does not mean it is not there. Box turtles do spend a great deal of time under the substrate, but they must come out to feed and change locations should conditions become too xeric. As a result, maybe Box turtles only make themselves available to UVA/B irradiation for a couple of hours a week in the wild; however, it is likely that this exposure is required and should be replicated in captivity. We have the means to do it ($20 bulb), so why not?
Now, I have coordinated research endeavors on numerous imperilled turtle species over the years as part of my graduate work and for federal contracts. Does this make me experienced? I am inclined to say yes as I would never report that my failure to do or see something means that it can't be done or doesn't exist.

All of your photos are wonderful. Good camera you have there.
Thanks for posting all of them... I love to look at good turtle pics.
-----
PHRatz

I read this whole thread and didn't see the answer to the question that is burning in my mind....What kind of camera do you use??? Those are beautiful pics!!
-----
0.1.0 ornate box turtle
1.0.0 eastern box turtle
1.0.0 Yellow belly slider
0.1.0 Red belly cooter
0.1.0 Australian shepard
1.12.0 chickens
3.2.0 children (do I still count the married ones?)
1.0.0 husband

Thank you very much!
I use only Canon products. I used the Canon S3IS for those photos.
Here are some more from that camera:















Cheers!

;p

..

..

No really, what kind of camera is it? You have to realize this is the woman who takes the worst pics in the world! lol!
-----
0.1.0 ornate box turtle
1.0.0 eastern box turtle
1.0.0 Yellow belly slider
0.1.0 Red belly cooter
0.1.0 Australian shepard
1.12.0 chickens
3.2.0 children (do I still count the married ones?)
1.0.0 husband

(n/p)

I was thrilled with my new Kodak but I think your Cannon has me beat:

-----
PHRatz

Those are great pictures also! Too bad I already got my Christmas present this year! But...there are other gift giving occasions coming up! lol!

BTY, what kind of hawk is that? It looks like the kind that has been after my chickens!
-----
0.1.0 ornate box turtle
1.0.0 eastern box turtle
1.0.0 Yellow belly slider
0.1.0 Red belly cooter
0.1.0 Australian shepard
1.12.0 chickens
3.2.0 children (do I still count the married ones?)
1.0.0 husband

Looks like a Sharp-Shinned hawk to me. This would explain the mass of feathers at its feet. They love eating other birds. They are a little small for a chicken, though. What you have may be a Coopers hawk. They're very similar, but usually have a black cap on their head and are larger.

Normally, Sharp-Shinned hawks live near woodlands. At first, since Ratz mentioned that she lives in the desert, I thought that it was a Merlin. They and Peregrine falcons like it more open. Their wings are usually very pointy, though. It's hard to see the wings in total.

>>Looks like a Sharp-Shinned hawk to me. This would explain the mass of feathers at its feet. They love eating other birds. They are a little small for a chicken, though. What you have may be a Coopers hawk. They're very similar, but usually have a black cap on their head and are larger.
>>
>>Normally, Sharp-Shinned hawks live near woodlands. At first, since Ratz mentioned that she lives in the desert, I thought that it was a Merlin. They and Peregrine falcons like it more open. Their wings are usually very pointy, though. It's hard to see the wings in total.

Ken nailed it, it is a sharp-shinned. I see either this one who is coming back year after year or it's another sharp-shinned..who knows which, beginning in Oct. every year. Since I've begun noticing, I see sharp-shinned around other areas of the outskirts of town too so I assume this means they winter here because I never see them in the warm months.
Like Ken says according to the field guides I've looked in, Cooper's hawks are similar to sharp-shinned but a little bit bigger.
golfdiva check out www.enature.com they have an excellent free online field guide for birds & just about everything else.

Anyway even though those photos from the Canon are clearer I am still pretty happy with my Kodak.
I was crawling on the ground to get to a point where I could hide behind the back porch to get that photo of the hawk in my backyard. Me crazy? naaaaaa LOL
It was fun though because I've tried for years to get a shot of that thing & it never fails... I get close to it & scare if off when I am not holding a camera. I got lucky last week when I saw that hawk eating a dove just a few feet outside the window of this room where I am sitting & typing now.
Ok this is so off topic shame on me. lol
Before digital cameras.. I didn't even have good shots of my own turtles because I couldn't ever zoom in. I love being able to do that now.
-----
PHRatz

Turtles (lame attempt at remaining on topic)

I'm going to go with Cooper's hawk. It's hard to get a good look at it. All I really remember is the striped tail and that it was about the size of a crow. Amazing to me that it would go after a chicken! I also hear that type of call often.

Ok, I'm done "off topicing" now, thanks for the indulgence! lol!
-----
0.1.0 ornate box turtle
1.0.0 eastern box turtle
1.0.0 Yellow belly slider
0.1.0 Red belly cooter
0.1.0 Australian shepard
1.12.0 chickens
3.2.0 children (do I still count the married ones?)
1.0.0 husband

Nice photos!
I've tried all kinds and Canon has been the best pick for me. But it's an artist's tool and different cameras work better for different people.
Cheers.

Thanks, I take photos for my own enjoyment but your photos are really professional looking as others have said. That Canon or your eye ..or both are very impressive.
-----
PHRatz