Reptile & Amphibian Forums

My intention was never to bash any chain store ... What I am trying to say is that it appears to me that a ton of people are breeding leos to "cash in" on the latest craze, period. I totally understand about breeding (good breeding) and all the work that is normally required. It's ridiculous to suggest that someone spend $1,000 for a snow and claim that the buyer will make a huge profit by selling off babies for the same $$$. Within the SAME breeding season those animals can be had for 1/2 that price and dropping. I feel with leos there seems to be especially GREEDY people misrepresenting the value of their stock SOLEY to make money. I see that as a rip-off. My comment about pet stores was merely an observation that I can buy a supposedly "high end" animal that is posted with a value of say $100 (plus shipping) or more at a pet store for 29.99 (plus tax). For exapmle, you will never see a gold dust motley corn snake at a pet store for 29.99 trust me. The recently proven genetics of that particular animal warrants it's price and it has held it's value relatively speaking. No, I do not breed or even own corns but I do enjoy and APPRECIATE the genetics involved. The effort, time, work, knowledge, availability and consistent beauty of that animal reflects it's monetary VALUE. Sadly, I cannot say the same for leos.

You answered your own question.

Yes Mack snows were around $1000 just a little while ago. That was because they WERE rare. Now they are much more common and go for around $100. Just like the Cornsnake you mentioned. While it is rare it will cost $$$ once it's common it will cost a lot less.

Second, if you bought a Mack snow for $1000 last year, and only breed him to 4 females. You still could have got around 40 eggs, 20 of which would be snows. Let's see 20 x $100 = $2000. So that is a $1000 return, in one year, with only 5 animals. Now let's see if you were to run him through 10 groups of 4 breeding females, you could get $20,000 in that first year. And don't forget that the next few years you will be producing more snows, including supers. I wouldn't call that a rip off, would you?

Lastly, you get what you pay for. Remember these are the animals that a breeder dumped to a wholesaler because he or she felt that the animal was not worth the rack space. If you think that that petstore animal is the same quality then good for you. I doubt that it is, but what do I know?

"You answered your own question."

>>>_ I don't think I posed a question other then "rip off" so I guess that's what you're referring to.

"Yes Mack snows were around $1000 just a little while ago. That was because they WERE rare. Now they are much more common and go for around $100. Just like the Cornsnake you mentioned. While it is rare it will cost $$$ once it's common it will cost a lot less."

>>>_ Within ONE breeding season ??? Really ??? In all good conscience that animal warrants that kind of money ??? You see no problem with that ??? The corn morph took YEARS of breeding to produce, has been available for a few years AND STILL holds it's value ... a snow leo does not compare with that particular corn morph on ANY of those levels.

"Second, if you bought a Mack snow for $1000 last year, and only breed him to 4 females. You still could have got around 40 eggs, 20 of which would be snows. Let's see 20 x $100 = $2000. So that is a $1000 return, in one year, with only 5 animals. Now let's see if you were to run him through 10 groups of 4 breeding females, you could get $20,000 in that first year. And don't forget that the next few years you will be producing more snows, including supers. I wouldn't call that a rip off, would you?"

>>>_ Or if the current trend continues, the prices will continue to drop like a rock and you may be hard pressed to get the price you need/want.

"Lastly, you get what you pay for. Remember these are the animals that a breeder dumped to a wholesaler because he or she felt that the animal was not worth the rack space. If you think that that petstore animal is the same quality then good for you. I doubt that it is, but what do I know?"

>>> _ Again OR the breeder dumped them because the price dropped and they could not get the $$$ they wanted. IMO you are NOT "getting what you pay for" because the value of the "high end" animals posted appears to be grossly misrepresented. You are of course free to doubt me but YES, I have seen leos in pet stores as I described ... $100 animal (accepted posted value) for 29.99. Very robust looking adults as a matter of fact.

thanks for sharing your thoughts and happy friday to you ...

I would like to now what morphs and which pet store has these high end morphs for $30? The only thing you will find in a pet store that could be mistaken for high end would be a SHTCTB. Although the ones you will find are in no way comparable to ones listed and priced as high end.
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Brian
www.thewindycitygecko.com

He's trying to compare a co-dom morph in a species that reaches maturity in under a year, to a morph that is a collection of recessive genes in a species that takes 2-3 years to reproduce.

I tried to simplify that by saying, Rare = expensive; common = cheap

I guess that is too difficult a concept for some?

A Golddust Motley Cornsnake is a collection of 4 recessive traits. 2 of these, Amelanism and Ultra hypo are thought to be found at the same locus, and produce a visible double het called a Ultramel. This Ultramel is then breed into 2 other recessive traits, Caramel and Motley.

Starting with just the base morphs it would take 3 generations, and a little luck, to produce. Add to this that corns take 2-3 years to reach maturity, and you can see why it will hold it's price for a while. If it were to be compared to anything in the Leo world it would have to be the RAPTOR morph.

I know what he is doing i just want to see hear the exact morph.
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Brian
www.thewindycitygecko.com

How about line bred animals where you have a range of qualities out of a given group? We produced over 900 animals this year and a handful that stand out above the rest. A few years back we purchased a $4600 2.3 group of Redstripes, now animals equivalent to those we purchased are $150 - $200 but are in turn putting out a few that are even nicer, with correspondingly higher pricetags. I do agree that certain claims have been made on some of the recent morphs that were a bit optomistic. I never look at these little animals as investments, just the means to possibly produce more with even better color saturation and different patterns. It's easy to sit back and cry ripoff when you haven't taken that leap of faith.

"I do agree that certain claims have been made on some of the recent morphs that were a bit optomistic."

>>>_ I feel you are being kind with that comment.

Unbeknownst to you, IMO Dan I consider you to amongst the "elite" ... one of the handful of breeders I originally referred to as having stock that warrants the price. Speaking of price and/or value whenever I saw your posted stock I had no "beef". IMO the pics of your stock that I have seen were presented very well ... Personally I find the light colored rocks you pose your animals on not only provides a nice contrast I believe it reflects their color more accuratley. "Funny" how we have never spoken or ever done business yet I found your presentation and $$$'s to be MORE then fair ... BEST WISHES to you in your leo venture )

dude, I just went to the classifieds and then to your posted website ... your stock is even better then I remembered. You do have some STELLAR animals !!! AND (to my original point), some less then amazing AND they are priced accordingly, thank you ... now I can get off of my soapbox )

Folks do yourself a favor and please check out http://hotgeckos.com ... then compare the color/quality/price to the plethora of postings for similar animals ... you be the judge.

Dan, put your website link in your sig. You have a good website.

Thanks for the kind remarks, guys. I'll figure out how to get it on there. That sounds like one helluva cornsnake, will have to check it out.

Here:
Hot Geckos

Thanks for the help, guys. If I have trouble my 13 year old son can probably figure it out.
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www.hotgeckos.com

Very well presented site, tops marks Dan! , love your bold jungle, very cute indeed! Wish you the best

Allie
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Can you tell me what rhymes with moon,
And can be written on a page,
Or on a rock for age on age,
This ancient letter tell me soon!

Thank you, Allie. That's Tarzan, he's four years old and is one of those that literally begs to be picked up.
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www.hotgeckos.com

Cute, hes been handled a lot then glad to hear that hes so relaxed around you but it has been 4 years so im not surprised! Then again, all leos have different personalities so you could have had one for years and it might still not be that fond of you! Best of luck Dan

Allie
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Can you tell me what rhymes with moon,
And can be written on a page,
Or on a rock for age on age,
This ancient letter tell me soon!