Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I was recently sent a link to a very informative post, the post delt with BP mutations and the market crash. aside for the BP talk the post brought up key issues, the main issue was Marketing. i don't think any of us are in the hobby of breeding Colubrids with the intent to get rich, but i think the way WE market OUR animals has a lot to do with the outcome of the market...

key points:

Where do we advertise:
The KS classifieds has been great for me (and I'm sure others) when it comes to selling snakes... to be honest one of the most popular places (if not #1), but do we just settle for that? how about running an ad in any place that will let you (some free)... increase your likely hood of selling before you take $50 off your initial desired price every 2 weeks because of inpatients?

Wording:
What words/ phrases/ hooks do we use to draw attention to our ads, how do we sell the animal to someone we can not talk to face to face... it's all in the way your structure your ad..

Pictures:
Too many times i look on the classifieds and i see
1. Blurry pictures

2. Six diffiferent Ssp. for sale in a single ad with one pic (some times not even of one of the 6 Ssp.)

3. Maybe even a title like "killer snake, insane colors, really exceptional" which captures my attention, pulls me in, i wanna see the snake, i'm really interested now and there's NO PIC!

4. A group shot of 4-10 snakes and the seller tells you "well u can see um all just pick one"

5. A dull hatchling that is from "Good stock" but no pix of maybe the best looking parent snake or both! show the buyer what they'll get eventually if they decide your snake is what they'd like to buy.

The key here is you have to show the snake in the best way you can since the potential buyer can't take a physical look at it.

Forums:
I hate to say it but a forum can be used as a marketing tool, not to sell animals, but to display the animals in your collection... do we offer them up for sale on the forum of coarse not!...display of animals as well as a signature (your name. nickname, business name, web site name, logo, classifieds name, something that identifies you and these exceptional animals) at the end of a post IS beneficial.

COMPETITION:
There will always be someone with a better price but will the better price be for the better animal? what matters, how cheap it was or the quality/genes/lineage? I feel that as breeders and hobbyist we should breed Quality animals as well as work with each other to preserve the market on a snake rather that do cut-throat business, under cutting everyone else for our own personal gain... (survival of the fittest or selfishness?)

Someone will ask so i'll beat you to it:
One may ask me do you keep and breed and sell snakes just for the profit or for the love of the snake... 1st for the love and to be honest i don't mind making some money once a year doing what i love (i mean these guys are fun to own but not cheap to keep)... do i really expect a $700 snake which grows quickly, breeds easily and produces a large clutch (2x or 3x clutch even) to stay $700 for ever... NO... but a gradual descent would be nice (don't you think?)

I'm sure we don't pay hundreds/thousands of dollars for a new mutation and not expect to make that money back and/or flip it for a profit...

now I'm done with my ramble... enjoy these pic

"Blaze Phase" Goini

Red Hypo "Brooks"

~ZF
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Royal Blue ReptileZ
Home of Bklyn's Finest Brooksi

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signature file edited 4/22/06; contact an admin.

Hi Zenny,

I sell all my snakes through the classifieds at kingsnake.com. I have not attended a reptile show in years and I don't advertise in print. I do have a storefront listing on KS, which I think helps people to feel that I'm "real" and have some respectability.

Has the market slowed down? Yes. It may have "crashed" for ball pythons, but it appears to be declining for colubrids too. Part of the problem is simply oversaturation of "supply" compared to a demand that seems to be growing at a slower rate than it takes to produce a whole lot of snakes.

As far as what I think makes a good ad:

1) A clear photo of the actual snake for sale.

2) A pic (or link) to photos of the snake's parents.

3) A webpage. Buyers like to know who you are.

4) I'm not a big "catchy word" user - I prefer to let the pics speak for themselves. There are few things more annoying that average-looking snakes advertised with headlines like Super Rare! Unbelievable! Must See! and of course these claims are stated in ALL CAPS!

5) Spell words correctly. Use puctuation. Present yourself in a professional manner (even if it IS just a hobby).

6) Answer e-mails relating to your ads in a timely manner.

I don't think there's a lot of "carry over" from the forums to sales. It happens (I sold you a Pueblan Milk that I posted on the forum), but generating sales from the KS forums is limited at best in my experience.

I kept snakes for at least 10 years before trying to breed them. It wasn't until I produced them for a few years that I decided to take a stab at making some money. I think when you have that kind of background, buyers realize that you'd be keeping and breeding snakes whether there was money in it or not - and that's alot more than I can say for some johnny-come-lately "investment" ball python breeders.

When you have a sincere interest in the animals you work with, it shows.

Tim

Third Eye

Tim all good points, I just want to clarify something

when I say the forum can be used as a marketing tool I don't mean post a ton of hatchling pix on the forum in hopes of selling a few, I mean show off your collection, let a potential buyer (PB) see what you have in your collection the condition you keep you animals in and make sure these animals can be identified with you so that what that "PB" recognizes your name at a show or in the classifieds they have some sort of idea of who you are, the animals you keep and the manner in which you keep your animals.

it may even work this way, I've had sellers tell me " I don't mind dropping my price, I know you take good care of your snakes and I'll see tons of pix on the forum" (That's fulfilling)

~Z
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Royal ReptileZ
Home of Bklyn's Finest Brooksi

___

signature file edited 4/22/06; contact an admin.

**I mean show off your collection, let a potential buyer (PB) see what you have in your collection the condition you keep your animals in and make sure these animals can be identified with you so that when the "PB" recognizes your **

~ZF
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Royal ReptileZ
Home of Bklyn's Finest Brooksi

___

signature file edited 4/22/06; contact an admin.

Zenny,

I agree. The surest way to get someone to know that I have bloodred corns is to post a pic of a desert king in this forum. It doesn't always make sense, but I believe having a variety of different offerings certainly helps. If posting in a forum gets someone to visit your site and bookmark it, then you never know when "down the road" it can lead to a sale.

There's a heck of alot of "untraceable" sales that could result simply by posting in a forum and having a link to your website.

But yeah, thinking you're going to sell all of your babies just because you posted them on a forum probably won't happen (at least that's been my experience).

Good clarification and a good topic too!

Tim

I think that I disagree with that a little bit.

I am much more inclined to buy from someone who is an expert with a particular species. When I go to a website and see that someone has 12 breeders of the same species it makes me feel like they know what their doing and have probobly spent time and held back nice hatchlings ect. When I see a website where the "Breeder" has one pair of everything under the sun, unless its something really unique I am not as drawn to it.

Breeders are not pet stores and I don't think that having a wide variety of herps to choose from really boosts our sales that much. If I am looking for dart frogs I will call saurian enterprises or black jungle. If I want coxi or mandarins Pro exotics will be getting a call from me. For almost every semi popular species there is usually a handfull of go-to guys that you just know are the best with those animals.

Man I agree with your post from the buyers perspective. I am still aquiring good stock from very specific producers of the genes I covet for my projects. I’m not there yet as a seller, but it is my intention to use a simple website that I can link to from a small classified ad. I would have as much info as possible on the lineage and include very specific things rather than generic fluff.
Some of the things that I have found that will be something to use as a guide when I put my site together-

Wish list from buyer to sellers out there:

> Descriptions like Bluerosy uses in the classified ads, I like the information included especially when you are talking about a new morph or trait.
> Website photo gallery like crimsonking
> “Available” photos depicted by clutch, like Carolina Herps.
> “Terms” like Mark Lucas site.
> Individual history sheet included with each like Isis Reptiles.
> “Summer Report” like Tom Stevens site has. That adds a lot of “person” to a site, to hear the good and the bad news and the ups and downs of a season.
> Just quite simply put- correctly sexed please!

My “No” list:

No “Future Projects” info with “Expected Hatchlings for 2004” OUTDATED!!!
No Same snake listed for three years and counting OUTDATED!!!
No “Working on refining these traits”- same picture of founder stock with nothing current to show for three years, eight years, etc, and counting... OUTDATED!!!
No Photo Gallery- with No Photos, coming soon, broken links (How soon IS soon??)

Can’t work a camera- I won’t buy from you.
Can’t update a website, uh, like every YEAR at least, I won’t buy from you.
Can’t spell the snake, can’t sell the snake, to me. (actually that has not been the truth with me, if I see a picture and I covet it, I don’t care what you THINK you’ve got...)

Interesting thread though!

Excellent post.

There are far too many vendors with price lists that are several years old.

Sometimes it is because they changed to a different website.

If you change to a different website, please google the proper use of the HTLM meta tag for refresh and look at to redirect using it - so that you can have your old URL send users to your new website.

Just leaving a dead page up is going to confuse customers, google will continue to index it - and customers you could have captured will go to someone else.

Do not redirect using javascript - paranoid people like me use script blockers, and do not allow scripts to run from a site until we specifically allow the site. Use plain old html - it has redirect functionallity.
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3.0 WC; 0.3 CB L. getula californiae
1.0 CB L. getula nigrita
0.1.1 WC; 0.0.3 CH Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

Yes, there are specialists. But there are also generalists. Back when I did shows a specialist who had what was "hot" at the time, sold a lot of snakes. But once those types weren't on people's "wanted" lists, the sales slowed. On the other hand, sellers who had a little bit of everything always seemed to do relatively well.

In my estimation there are more people wanting "one of each" than folks building the ultimate Cal King (or Honduran, or Corn, etc.) collection. There are more people keeping snakes as pets than there are breeders and most keepers have a particular snake for awhile before they decide to try "something different."

Just my observations.

Tim

As a seller I would say that my two best methods are online forums and through retail stores. I am not a large scale breeder by a long shot and I sell most of my everyday run of the mill kings etc to the local pet stores. I am fortunate to have a few decent reptile stores near me. My more exotic stuff is almost always sold on KS and Fauna forums.

When I am making my adds I try to give people all the information that I would want to know before buying an animal. Age, whats its eating, sex, lineage, pics of parents (especially if juvis don't have adult colors), etc.

When I see adds that have nothing writen just a price tag it anoys me. Who actually goes, "hmmm yeah I'll take one of those" without needing to ask a few questions. A lack of information makes me as a buyer feel like the seller is hiding something. It only takes an intelligently worded sentence or two and a good pic to get my attention.

I think that you said it... good pics are probobly the biggest selling point of any online add.

Those are excellent points Zach.

When writing an ad, I try to answer every conceivable question (age, length, food it eats, type of payment accepted, shipping price, etc.), so when a customer contacts me, I know they're serious and not just e-mailing questions about when it was hatched or the cost of shipping (although sometimes they still do that, despite it being stated in the ad).

I think it's rather telling that just about anybody who has "been around" states "No trades" in their ads, because it seems everyone wants to trade (or so it seems). So that's another thing to put in an ad, if you're not open to trades.

Tim

PS - Nice blue eyed blonde!

... it was a blue eyed blond. These are Gerold Merkers line of hypos from sacramento county. They are similar looking to the blonds, especially as hatchlings. I meant to get a pair of BEBs this year but just never had the money or space to spare. Something to look forward to next year...

here is the pair

I'm not a breeder/seller but I'm looking for additional snakes. If i could chime in.
I've spent hours online both researching/learning and looking for additions to my collection (1 right now lol)
Most of my sites I've looked at have been generated from this site.
*I've really only had 2 experiences where the site answers off the majority of typical situations (out of maybe 30).
* The majority of sellers answer question relatively quick and complete
* with some a dialoque starts back and forth and proves to answer all questions and more...some however must get tired of basic questions and either stop responding or say well are you interested.
* 2 have responded as no I have no pictures.
By the most part my dealings with sellers online has been productive though.
It does seem to me that contacting a seller online and/or posting on this forum that there is a hesitence on the part of those utilizing the board the most to answer or post to something from someone new (out of the circle.
This I totally understand as I (well used to) spent lots of time on a NC outer banks fishing forum (red drum tackle) and was in the inner circle. If somebody asked a bonehead question or asked something not pertaining to the thread,or didn't read/search applicable threads...well there would be no answers. If someone asked good questions and was somewhat "polite" answers/posts would start, once that person showed some reqularity he'd be "in"
Anyway not against it, I respect it and will do my time..lol
enuf right???
JC

JC

I think sometimes newcomers don't get replies because they ask questions that could easily be answered by reading a book or checking out a care sheet. I don't know how many times I've seen the post "Are corn snakes good pets?" in the Corn Snake Forum.

To a certain extent potential snake keepers need to do their homework and show they're serious if they expect to get responses. I don't think most people who post here have the time to give step-by-step instructions on snake-related topics which can be obtained with little effort at the library, book store or online.

It somewhat frightens me that someone would ask a complete stranger for advice, rather than seek out literature written by an expert in the field. I think most people use this forum to show off pics and ask "advanced" questions...after they've done their homework.

Tim

It should be pointed out that there is a lot of conflicting and bad information in print - which can be somewhat confusing to a new comer. Which authors are good authors?

I know I was amazed when I read the corn snake book by Kathy Love.
I bought it at the sac show for my little brother, who got his first snake, an Okeetee corn, at that show. It was a very high quality book.

However, a lot of the books at pet stores are full of crap, I hate to say it, but it's true. Especially the less expensive ones.
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3.0 WC; 0.3 CB L. getula californiae
1.0 CB L. getula nigrita
0.1.1 WC; 0.0.3 CH Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

Recommended reading:

Kingsnakes and Milksnakes - Ronald G. Markel, Richard D. Bartlett
The General Care and Maintenance of Common Kingsnakes (The Herpetocultural Library)
Corn Snake Manual - Kathy Love
Don Soderberg's new corn snake book
The Milksnake book (Free on Bob Applegate's website)
Keeping And Breeding Snakes by Chris Mattison

I don't think you'll find much "conflicting information" in the above titles. There are more good snake books out right now that ever before. Do your homework to see the writer's qualifications before reading a book.

Tim

Great info thanks!

Anything by Mattison, Love and any information Applegate gives out I'm sold. All of them are "elite" in what they do. Good call on the books.
Sam

I'm not saying that good books aren't there.
There are however people who genuinely do not have the same research skills as the typical science minded individuals, and it is a little elitist to exclude them from the hobby as a result.

Answering their basic questions and pointing them to the proper resources is courteous, and may save the life of a snake.

If they are just plain lazy, that's one thing. Assuming they are lazy from what we think is a basic or stupid question though can be a bit presumptive. And I am the king of presumption
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3.0 WC; 0.3 CB L. getula californiae
1.0 CB L. getula nigrita
0.1.1 WC; 0.0.3 CH Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

I agree with you. Please understand that I wasn't so much putting myself in that bucket as I was responding (then rambling) to the selling of snakes and giving an opinion from the outside looking in. I've bought and borrowed books and have learned a great deal. I think I've learned more from simply (and silently) reading posts on various topics. The books I have read are more general in fact and don't really get down to regions, locales, individual breed of snake, unique attitudes and personalities of snakes that the vast majority of posters here have gone through and can comment/help on.
I guess the qustions on temperature etc are the most frequent and if you go onmto any forum and scroll back a little I'll bet you'll find the same question(s). A funny one I read a few weeks back was a guy posted a question (forget topic)...waited 1 day for responses and after seeing none posted back saying "thanks for nothing".
Anyway it's alot likle the fishing board I was on, I understand and respect it. I'll never say I haven't posted a ? that I could have researched other places but am learning top dial them in to what's valid and not.
So, if I have a UTH on one side and a hide on the.....just kidding
JC

I won't be selling any until (hopefully) next season.

My intention is to put up a website.
Each clutch will have its own web page. Each snake in clutch will have a picture.

Information will be given on the genetics of the clutch as far back as I know (family tree) and feeding/shed records of the individual snakes in the clutch. None will be sold that do not take frozen/thawed.

I'm also planning to sell some stuff other than snakes.
Such as digital indoor/outdoor thermometers. No, I can't beat the wallmart price. But I don't think I have to, just come close to it.

And I'm going to sell snake bags. Figure why not. They aren't hard to make, might pick up a few extra bucks on the transaction.

I don't know if I'm going to use kingsnake.com - I suspect it would be a bit pricey for me, selling nothing but a few clutches of normal (some hets) phenotype banded cal kings.

Faunaclassified is less expensive, and has a seal you can put on your page for "good trader". It also gets a lot less traffic, but I won't have volumes to get rid of for quite some time.

But for me, I think that since I will be a small volume breeder, the ability to give excellent information about each individual snake right on the website may help move some of them.

I'm also going to be doing a lot of local advertising - campus bulletin board, etc. - if I don't have to ship it, there's less risk to the snake.
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3.0 WC; 0.3 CB L. getula californiae
1.0 CB L. getula nigrita
0.1.1 WC; 0.0.3 CH Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

I will say that one thing that turns me off is mis-identified morphs in the ads.

I've seen ads that read "Lavender cal king - and we selectively bred the albino out of it"

Say what? Scratch that seller.
If they don't know what they have, it's a major turn off.
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3.0 WC; 0.3 CB L. getula californiae
1.0 CB L. getula nigrita
0.1.1 WC; 0.0.3 CH Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

Speaking of newbie questions...

I'm looking to get a lavendar california king...except I'm not really too sure anymore if what I want is really called a lavender! What I want has nice yellow bands and a pale purple (actually, lavender, hah!) background, and I'd like a strain that stays purple... but when looking for "lavenders" I also come up with these regular looking cali kings that are sort of purpley on the black.

If you (or anyone) could do me the favor of explaining lavender to me, I'd greatly appreciate it!

~jenny
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1.2 normal ball pythons (Cindy, Darwin, and Periscope)
0.0.1 california kingsnake (Tetris)
1.0 rex rat (Scurvy)
1.0 gerbil (Yerbul)
0.1 bunny (Spazz)
1.1 betta fishes (Vicious and Killer)
2.2 great danes (Shasta, Odysseus, Merlot, and Watson)
1.0 fat fuzzy mutt (Smokey)
1.1 cats (Thidwick and Turtle)
2.0 horses (Buddy and Sam)
1.0 goat (Billy Jack)
1.25 chickens (Ugly the rooster and his harem)

"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." - Voltaire

Kerby is probably far more qualified to answer this.

To the best of my knowledge, lavender is a type of hypomelanism - and some people do call hypos lavenders that probably shouldn't.

They are most vibrant as babies, and the colour fades a little as they get older (just like many chocolate banded hatch with black bands).

A show is probably the best place to get what you are looking for in a color you are looking for.

Look at kerbys stock - if he has a breeder that is what you are looking for, then hit him up for babies next year.

http://www.lonesomevalleyreptiles.com/calking.htm

m-14 looks like it might be what you are looking for
fm-43 is another good looker he has

My single lavender has cream bands, not yellow - she's from checker belly farms, bought at the sac show.

http://www.checkerbellyfarms.com/

They might have some lavenders that meet your description though.
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3.3 L. getula californiae
1.0 L. getula nigrita
1.0 Boa constrictor constrictor (suriname, fostering/rescue)
2.1.2 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

Been checking out various breeders for the past couple months, but I hadn't found those yet, thanks!

AHH! Both of those snakes are listed as lavender, hypomelanistic, except that the dark one is bill gillingham stock. Are those darker snakes just a different strain of that particular morph?
There's striped kings in carlsbad? I'll have to go hunting

No shows near me for quite a while, I'm afraid. I'm already eagerly awaiting anaheim next year.

Thanks again for the links and info!

~jenny
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1.2 normal ball pythons (Cindy, Darwin, and Periscope)
0.0.1 california kingsnake (Tetris)
0.2 rescue chinese water dragons
1.0 rex rat (Scurvy)
1.0 gerbil (Yerbul)
0.1 bunny (Spazz)
1.1 betta fishes (Vicious and Killer)
2.2 great danes (Shasta, Odysseus, Merlot, and Watson)
1.0 fat fuzzy mutt (Smokey)
1.1 cats (Thidwick and Turtle)
2.0 horses (Buddy and Sam)
1.0 goat (Billy Jack)
1.25 chickens (Ugly the rooster and his harem)

"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." - Voltaire

Sounds like you live near Carlsbad. Carlsbad has lots of Cal Kings. You can find banded, striped and abberrant. They range from light brown with yellow to dark brown with cream. Carlsbad and the southern CA coast in general has the potential for probably the brightest yellow anywhere in Cal Kings. My parents live in Encinitas about 7 miles away and occasionally I hunt there when I visit.
To hunt Carlsbad you need to find old illegal dump sites and turn the trash in the spring. You must be EXTREMELY careful when walking through the tall grass and licorice weed because there are ALOT of rattlesnakes there. I wear boots and snake chaps and use a snake hook or potato rake to turn the trash and strongly recomend you do the same if you hunt there. To find kings go in the morning or afternoon, if you go midday you will likely only find rattlers unless it is overcast. I stress the rattlers are everywhere. I've seen them not only under the trash but on top of it, out crawling, coiled in the grass and weeds under nothing just sitting there and I've even seen babies several inches up off the ground perched in the weeds.
One time I found 14 rattlers in about 45 minutes on top of just one hill. In that same area was like 2 gophersnakes and 1 striped king.

Haha, you don't need to tell me twice about rattlers, where I live they're pretty common. We're pretty sure there's one living in our garage, we've yet to see him but we find his sheds every so often. Good eatin', there's lots of woodrats out there, lol.
Carlsbad is about 30 miles away from me, I just want to find a striped king or two All the ones around my house are banded. I'll have to make a visit in springtime. Thanks for the tips!

~jenny
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1.2 normal ball pythons (Cindy, Darwin, and Periscope)
0.0.1 california kingsnake (Tetris)
0.2 rescue chinese water dragons
1.0 rex rat (Scurvy)
1.0 gerbil (Yerbul)
0.1 bunny (Spazz)
1.1 betta fishes (Vicious and Killer)
2.2 great danes (Shasta, Odysseus, Merlot, and Watson)
1.0 fat fuzzy mutt (Smokey)
1.1 cats (Thidwick and Turtle)
2.0 horses (Buddy and Sam)
1.0 goat (Billy Jack)
1.25 chickens (Ugly the rooster and his harem)

"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." - Voltaire

A lavender albino cal king is a t positive amelanistic cal king. A T negative cal king has red eyes. The T positive has dark pupils. Thats how to tell the difference.

So, what's a t negative amelanistic cal king? A blue eyed blonde?
And I've gotten a different answer about that - that albinism and the lavenders are hypomelanistic and that the varying degrees of hypomelanism lead to either albinism or the other morphs. Amelanistic makes more sense to me, just because the word itself means lacking melanin.
What is hypomelanism? My guess would be something like a black cal king, where the light bands have dark pigment all over them.

And what are the T's, and why does their presence lead to red or dark pupils? Sorry to ask so many questions, but I think this kind of stuff is fascinating. Tell me to shut up if I'm annoying, but I'll just end up pestering some poor soul at the next reptile convention I attend

Thanks for responding the first time though!

~jenny
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1.2 normal ball pythons (Cindy, Darwin, and Periscope)
0.0.1 california kingsnake (Tetris)
0.2 rescue chinese water dragons
1.0 rex rat (Scurvy)
1.0 gerbil (Yerbul)
0.1 bunny (Spazz)
1.1 betta fishes (Vicious and Killer)
2.2 great danes (Shasta, Odysseus, Merlot, and Watson)
1.0 fat fuzzy mutt (Smokey)
1.1 cats (Thidwick and Turtle)
2.0 horses (Buddy and Sam)
1.0 goat (Billy Jack)
1.25 chickens (Ugly the rooster and his harem)

"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." - Voltaire

This may not be 100% accurate - this is what I think is accurate -

amel is lacking in melin.
They all have pink eyes, though I *think* that it is possible for T specimens to also have pink eyes.

To the best of my knowledge, the typical "pink eyed albino" cal king is actually amel.

hypomelanism is a reduction in melin.
All lavenders are hypomelanistic, though I don't think all hypomelanistics are lavenders.

There are several different strains of hypomelanistic - and not all of them are compat (IE breeding them produces double hets first generation).

I've seen what look to be hypomelanistic but has pink eyes.
Maybe it was the flash - since I haven't seen them in person, just pictures.

hypermelanism is production of excess melin in the typically cream pattern of the snake. AFAIK - it is possible to be chocolate brown opposed to black, but still be hypermelanistic - if the cream bands show the dark coloration bleeding through them as well.

-=-

T neg is amel
T pos is means the Tyrowhatever chemical is produced.

I guess technically any cal king that is not amel is T pos - but some are reduced, some normal, some excess.

The lavenders wouls be T pos but reduced melin.
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3.3 L. getula californiae
1.0 L. getula nigrita
1.0 Boa constrictor constrictor (suriname, fostering/rescue)
2.1.2 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

Pink eyes in amel would make sense to me, since if they lack melanin there'd be no color pigment in their eyes - so what you'd see are the blood cells in the eyes. Seems like it'd be possible for some hypos to have pink eyes too, if that was one of the places that they were missing some pigment.

Okay, so amel is lacking completely, hypo is missing some, and hyper is overproduction. Gotcha.

I wonder what that T chemical does in the grand scheme of things that it affects colors the way it does. I'll have to corner a science professor and ask him

Thank you so much for answering!

~jenny
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1.2 normal ball pythons (Cindy, Darwin, and Periscope)
0.0.1 california kingsnake (Tetris)
0.2 rescue chinese water dragons
1.0 rex rat (Scurvy)
1.0 gerbil (Yerbul)
0.1 bunny (Spazz)
1.1 betta fishes (Vicious and Killer)
2.2 great danes (Shasta, Odysseus, Merlot, and Watson)
1.0 fat fuzzy mutt (Smokey)
1.1 cats (Thidwick and Turtle)
2.0 horses (Buddy and Sam)
1.0 goat (Billy Jack)
1.25 chickens (Ugly the rooster and his harem)

"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." - Voltaire

I'm not sure that hyper is really over production.

A blizzard is a cal king that expresses both amel and hyper at the same time. My understanding is that the parts that are suppose to be cream have the dark coloring, but then because of the amel, the dark coloring isn't there.

So a blizzard actually has less discernable pattern than a standard amel, even though it is hypermelanistic.

I almost wonder if, at least in terms of cal kings, if hyper-melansism is an incorrect term - that whate really is going on is whatever causes the cream pattern to form over the dark base color is broken, resulting in a darker snake.

Thus - a blizard would have white base instead of black due to amel, and then reduced cream/yellow on top of the white - making it virtually a white snake.
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3.3 L. getula californiae
1.0 L. getula nigrita
1.0 Boa constrictor constrictor (suriname, fostering/rescue)
2.1.2 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

I think hypermelanism would be right, because the color of the scales is not the color we see, instead what we see is the color of the pigment produced by the cells in the scales. So, when the dark pigment melanin cells overproduce, the light pigment producing cells don't produce as much, resulting in a darker snake. At least, I'm 90% sure I remembered all that correctly. It's been a year since I had a class that talked about skin cells

A lot more about king and corn morphs is making sense to me now! Thank you for helping me out with all this.

~jenny
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1.2 normal ball pythons (Cindy, Darwin, and Periscope)
0.0.1 california kingsnake (Tetris)
0.2 rescue chinese water dragons
1.0 rex rat (Scurvy)
1.0 gerbil (Yerbul)
0.1 bunny (Spazz)
1.1 betta fishes (Vicious and Killer)
2.2 great danes (Shasta, Odysseus, Merlot, and Watson)
1.0 fat fuzzy mutt (Smokey)
1.1 cats (Thidwick and Turtle)
2.0 horses (Buddy and Sam)
1.0 goat (Billy Jack)
1.25 chickens (Ugly the rooster and his harem)

"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." - Voltaire

The issue is that you can tell a snake that has both amel (no melan production) and what we call hypermelanism.

So that's why I'm thinking hypermelanism, at least in Cal Kings, might actually just be pattern reduction - and not over production of melan. There's visual signs of it even with no melan.
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3.3 L. getula californiae
1.0 L. getula nigrita
1.0 Boa constrictor constrictor (suriname, fostering/rescue)
2.1.2 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

Hmm, I see what you're saying...
My understanding is that the cells are still overproducing the melanin, but since the snake doesn't have the ability to make pigment (amel), it comes out without color, leading to the blizzard.
You know what, I'm gonna ask my science professor about this. If he can't answer I'll ask for my tuition back

~jenny
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1.2 normal ball pythons (Cindy, Darwin, and Periscope)
0.0.1 california kingsnake (Tetris)
0.2 rescue chinese water dragons
1.0 rex rat (Scurvy)
1.0 gerbil (Yerbul)
0.1 bunny (Spazz)
1.1 betta fishes (Vicious and Killer)
2.2 great danes (Shasta, Odysseus, Merlot, and Watson)
1.0 fat fuzzy mutt (Smokey)
1.1 cats (Thidwick and Turtle)
2.0 horses (Buddy and Sam)
1.0 goat (Billy Jack)
1.25 chickens (Ugly the rooster and his harem)

"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." - Voltaire

"Okay, so amel is lacking completely, hypo is missing some, and hyper is overproduction. Gotcha."

Exactly correct but I would add that since hypo is a general term which means "reduced" it covers alot of things. There are at least 2 strains of Lavender (JR and JD) and then there are the Merker hypos and the Blue Eyed blonds. Apparently none of these are compatible but they all fall under the broad definition of hypo. Oh and Lavenders have ruby eyes. The Blue Eyed Blonds also have ruby eyes (blue iris with ruby pupil). The Merkers have dark eyes but in just the right light I can sometimes see a hint of ruby in mine.
The Merkers and the Blue Eyed Blondes will turn light tan, not Lavender as adults. One of the strains JR or JD also turns more tan as adults but I forget which one it is, Kerby would know.
Also very few people know the difference between JR and JD and just sell them both as Lavender. I believe Kerby has both and he would probably be the most knowledgable guy to see if you want to get some.

What's the JR and JD stand for? Just different genetic markers or what?
Alright, you just cleared up something I've been wondering about for a while with the entire lavender color, which is why some snakes get yellow/tan with age and some don't. Sounds like an increasing melanin sort of thing going on, except since they're lacking melanin, they instead get yellow. That's just an idea though.

Thank you much!

~jenny
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1.2 normal ball pythons (Cindy, Darwin, and Periscope)
0.0.1 california kingsnake (Tetris)
0.2 rescue chinese water dragons
1.0 rex rat (Scurvy)
1.0 gerbil (Yerbul)
0.1 bunny (Spazz)
1.1 betta fishes (Vicious and Killer)
2.2 great danes (Shasta, Odysseus, Merlot, and Watson)
1.0 fat fuzzy mutt (Smokey)
1.1 cats (Thidwick and Turtle)
2.0 horses (Buddy and Sam)
1.0 goat (Billy Jack)
1.25 chickens (Ugly the rooster and his harem)

"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." - Voltaire

What's the JR and JD stand for? Just different genetic markers or what?
Alright, you just cleared up something I've been wondering about for a while with the entire lavender color, which is why some snakes get yellow/tan with age and some don't. Sounds like an increasing melanin sort of thing going on, except since they're lacking melanin, they instead get yellow. That's just an idea though.

>> JR stands for John Ruiz who started that strain. I don't know what JD stands for. In normal Cal Kings the colors kinda "come in" with age. It's not an increasing melanin gene like the Ball Pythons. It's more like the normal corns where they hatch kinda dull and gain color and intensity with age. With Cal Kings the light brown and yellow ones just naturally get a little darker brown and brighter yellow as they grow and it's a little strange but the real dark and cream ones usually get a little lighter brown with age and the cream tends to get a little yellower. That is with normals. With Lavenders and hypos it is actually different genes producing their own effects. Some remove less melanin and the result is a more gray or brown whereas some remove more melanin resulting in a more lavender color. Again Kerby could probably help you more than me here. As far as brightness of yellow that is probably more a factor of what the normal snake would have looked like without the gene. The lavender and hypo gene doesn't affect the yellow very much. If you want a bright yellow lavender you need to have a snake that was gonna be a real bright yellow marked one anyways. That is why catching a real bright yellow Carlsbad can help you. If you can't find a real bright yellow Lavender you could try to catch a bright yellow marked normal from Carlsbad and breed it to a Lavender. You would get all het for Lavenders and then you would need to select the brightest yellow hets and breed them together or breed them back to the Lavender parent.

Hmmm, lotta food for thought there. My goal (ideally) would be a bumblebee sort of effect in the normal king - bright yellow and dark black bands, and then in the lavenders a bright purpley lavender and bright yellow bands. Has anyone that you know of already gotten a bumblebee lookin king? Most of the CB projects I've seen have to been to create the whitest bands on a black snake.
When I'm able to get more snakes I'll start looking more seriously into the snakes different breeders have, including kirby. My "new snake money" went into getting the belt tensioner fixed in my car... le sigh.
Can't wait for spring to roll around though! Winter doesn't seem to have hit yet (it's been 80 the last two weeks) so I get the feeling spring will be late coming too.
Thanks again!

~jenny
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1.2 normal ball pythons (Cindy, Darwin, and Periscope)
0.0.1 california kingsnake (Tetris)
0.2 rescue chinese water dragons
1.0 rex rat (Scurvy)
1.0 gerbil (Yerbul)
0.1 bunny (Spazz)
1.1 betta fishes (Vicious and Killer)
2.2 great danes (Shasta, Odysseus, Merlot, and Watson)
1.0 fat fuzzy mutt (Smokey)
1.1 cats (Thidwick and Turtle)
2.0 horses (Buddy and Sam)
1.0 goat (Billy Jack)
1.25 chickens (Ugly the rooster and his harem)

"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." - Voltaire

I started with local sales only, and also sold wholesale to a Pet Shop. I then did some local shows and met some people through a local herp club. Soon people took notice of my animals and some potential customers began to see what I hoped to produce or had available. I then used a free classified section on a site, but really met a lot of people through this forum. Some were helpful in finding me what I wanted and others became customers. Going to Daytona and meeting people face to face is a great way to be remembered. I sold a few snakes each time I went and was able to meet others I had done in biz with in person over the net. The thing about shows for me is even when I don't sell much I got to let people see the quality of my animals. This is very important, especially when selling somewhat expensive snakes. Not everyone has the cash in pocket to buy on the spot, but seeing something you think you want in a picture...and then seeing it in person can help a person make up thier mind when undecided on a snake. Going to shows can also show you what NOT to do. Like having a dirty display, letting people name the prices on your snakes, and also seeing how some people keep snakes together in groups...which can be very unsanitary. I don't pay too much attention to market price. I want to know what others are selling thier animals for but this does not mean mine will be priced the same as theirs. Finally my web site was up and running and I had a very good response to it initially and still get plenty of compliments and sales...as it not only has animals for sale but also has info that some find valueable. Being FedEx certified has also helped me out a lot. I also insist on using brand new deli cups and boxes when I ship...I hate to receive a beat up box and used deli cups when I buy something and I think a lot of people are unhappy when receiveing animals this way. Another thing is do not just tell someone you don't have what they want and leave it at that if you are out of something....tell them if you know someone else who has what they want how to reach that person. They will remember that and know you're a good guy. Be helpful, corteous, and stand behind your snakes with some sort of guarnuntee...and eventually you will get someplace....that's how I see it anyway. Worked for me
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

I agree completely. I always try to help people out however I can even if it doesn't really benefit me.

As a buyer, I can't tell you how much more likely I am to return to someone who gave excellent service.

amen on the new clean cups etc. too

Most of what I've sold has been very small scale, and locally in my state. I've never shipped, but I feel pretty confident on how to do it the right way when that time comes.
As far as adds with pics. You see some that are blurry, or pics of a snake that's in the blue. No way I'm posting a pic of a snake in the blue, that I'm trying to market. I've never cared for "Will Send Pics To Serious Inquires Only". Well I'm serious, but you very well might have an animal I don't like the looks of. Now I feel I've wasted your time when you send me a pic, and I don't like the looks of the animal. Some adds may not have a pic, but they will mention to email for pics. I don't have a problem with that, as long as they give a detailed description of what they're selling. Don't advertise Cal. king for sale, Email me for pics.
Some sellers I really love how they advertise. Take Exotic Pets out of Las Vegas. Every add is a pic of the snake for sale, being held by an employee, or in it's respective deli cup. Peter/ECC has tons of pics on what he sells. He does a great job on his website and marketing. Anyway, good topic, and enough rambling from me.
Steve

Zenny, speaking from a consumers standpoint I can say the forum is a GREAT marketing tool. I read the forum for months before making a purchase via the internet. I believe it can make you feel more at ease about sending money to someone you don't know if you have some "background" on them. Reading posts by the regulars on this forum kind of gives you an idea of where they are coming from. It is here that I have read many passionate posts concerning peoples collections,likes and dislikes and have seen many amazing reptiles. Kevin

.

This is a great topic. I've been working with reptiles for a while, and have bred and sold many of the species that I keep, but I'm pretty much a small time breeder. I would love, someday, to be able to support my hobby with the sale of offspring. I've learned a lot about what the does and do nots of internet sales are through Kingsnake.com. Good pictures, and a good and credible repution are everything in this hobby or business, which ever way you look at it. Most reputable breeders, both big and small, give plenty of support and information with the animals they are selling too. The others just seem to come and go, and believe me, I've had my experiences with them as well.
-Phil

I couldn't agree with you more.

Your actually not that far off.

AFter the basics are exchanged (pics, feeding ect) then comes the procrastinating of the potential buyer. A seller can use certain "sales" techniques to close a deal. This is whats called "overcoming objections". In sales you have to be able to read peoples objections before they come to the surface (ie I have to check with my spouse, can't afford it, want to shop around ect ect). If you can read the persons objections before they verbalize it then you have a much better chance at making a sale.

Anybody can post a pic and have nice pleasantries. But it takes work to make a few more sales.

I have been into colubrids for 15+ years and I have migrated around a bit like everyone else. Interests come and go, but I have let my education try and differetiate me from some other breeders. I started by specializing in NA milks when there were a couple dozen of us around the country REALLY into locality stuff. Most of those guys are gone, and with them the diversity in production(and collection)that really interested me in these ssp.. Not to mention the hi-labor/low return on NA milks...
I still keep some NA milks, its hard to completely eliminate your first "love". But I also like keeping rarer morphs of colubrids. I hope to breed them(and sell them)before they become popular enough to have anyone asking for $5 off...I am just SO over the "tire kicker" mentality. Anyone knowing my name or my stock can attest, my New England sarcsasm slips in..lol.
I dont take the best pics, I dont produce alot of any one thing, and I dont bow to "big" dealers because they make alot of $$. I like being small, advertising in one place, and being able to offer good stuff at reasonable prices to people I hope care for the uniqueness of my animals. I dont like the ball python people(even the ones who just dabble in it)because honestly they take resources away from people who would otherwise be more "noble"with their time and $$.
Many morphs,strains,localities and unique animals have been lost to the hobby because people sold out to ball pythons to ride that "golden wave". As our cage space has grown over the years---be honest---how many of you have kept more SPECIES not just more individuals? How many people with more than 100 snakes keep ANY that could be considered a RARE SPECIES, new species to the hobby, or a challenge for an expert keeper? You can argue that getting new stuff means WC and that incorperates parasite problems......but there are many other really neat species out there be it the GREEN BOIGA, locally endangered or extinct species(with permits of course),or the multitude of snakes who carry only a latin name because they have only recently been discovered by importers? BRAVO to the few who do try with those new species, are daring enough to try something different or unpopular, and can remember what it was like to go out in the field and hunt them to begin with! Thanks,Jeff

Personally I see some oddball snakes on the classifieds....imports that I don't know a thing about. Tempting at times but I feel the snake may be destined to perish here with the work I have to do daily to keep my captve born collection thriving. I have even blown off captive born asian rats for the longest times since I have neither the space or time to devote to something that may need special attention. Someday I hope too....and I agree I am sure it will be rewarding, but for now I have to keep it simple. I confess I have 4 Ball Pythons....het Amels,,,,but I really like those so...what the heck ya know? I'd never part with my colubrids for any get rich scheme...and I have sold a few snakes this year to Ball guys getting back into colubrids. GO COLUBRIDS! YEAH!
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

What an awesome topic to bring up! I've always been into herps since I was young, and started toying around with captive breeding about 4 years ago. I never realized it was so much more than just pairing up herps. Photography is one of the biggest parts of this industry and something I am working on perfecting over these next couple of years. They basically go hand in hand and you have to learn one to do the other. Some of the guys here, and especially on some field herp forums are absolutley amazing. Some of you guys...Tom, Carsten, Felicien, Funky, Phil, Steve....just to name of few...inspire me to stay in this hobby for years. Everyone here is great at what they do and it's good we all can exchange data, information, and even snakes. Enough rambling.....again what a good topic.
Sam

Tom, you agree that you keep some HET ball pythons. We know you keep many kinds of kings,likely some others,hets,dbl hets,etc....You dont want to "risk" your cb collection,yet you aknowledge liking new,unique stuff...... Who are we as keepers and what are we TEACHING the next generation of herpers if ALL of us take that approach? How are we to be regarded as "GOOD KEEPERS" when all we do is refine a recipe handed down to us from other captive breeders. Where are the MAVERICKS, the risk takers that made reptile husbandry what it is today? I think they would cringe at the sight of a modern herp show.....where wc animals are either frowned upon or slighted against if allowed at all. We are not creating future herpers but future plagerizers. I like your kings by the way,lol, dont let me talk you out of them,Jeff

I know what you're saying, and see your point. But for example, I have always wanted some Tiger Rats, but after seeing them in the San Antonio Zoo in a huge display and how they were constantly climbing I felt until I could give the snakes what I felt to be adequate space I will not work with them. I also have no room for quarantine for a wild caught snake with similar needs as the Tigers. In other words I wont take a semi arboreol snake and put it in a rack...the stress of being boxed in may do it in from the get go. My snake room is very small. Some day I will have a few locale projects and also hope to work with some of the no name things that appear from time to time. For now I won't take on anything I can't give 100% too. Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Where are the MAVERICKS, the risk takers that made reptile husbandry what it is today? I think they would cringe at the sight of a modern herp show.....where wc animals are either frowned upon or slighted against if allowed at all. We are not creating future herpers but future plagerizers.

The reallity is that wild caught specimens are more likely to die in captivity than a captive bred specimen.

Wild caught stock generally should not be passed on to just anyone. Those who have the resources to deal with them can still get them in many cases, though sometimes it may require bending the law to do so.

To be honest, with the number of times I go out and find rocks, logs, boards, etc. overturned and not put back the way they were - there are plenty of idiot herpers already. If deli cup herpers are what shows are promoting, that's a bonus to those of us who actually care about the welfare of wild herps and the environment they live in.

Field herping is an extremely fun hobby, I do take some from the wild but most I return after being lucky enough to catch them. Reptile shows should not exist to promote field herping. They should promote proper care of captive bred lines that are feeding well with adequate care sheets and a low probability of diseases that will need to be treated.

The general public comes to shows, and the general public buys pets at shows. The more captive bred animals that are offered, the less will die within a month because they refused to eat and some idiot tried to force feed them using improper methods.

Look at the grey banded market. It literally makes my skin crawl how many people would rather buy and use a pinky pump than obtain some small feeder lizards or try braining a rodent. With captive bred grey bands, the hatchlings are more likely to be feeding properly on rodents at show time than wild caught specimens rounded up the week before the show.

People will still bring new things in, field herping isn't going away. Is it fair to the reptiles in our care to take risks just because we want to be Mavericks? I don't think so.

There's enough scary [bleep] out there already (like IBD in Boas) in captive lines. Taking home any new reptile is a risk. Encouraging wild caught specimens at shows, and the habitat destruction that often results when snakes are collected from the wild with nothing but $$$ in mind, just increases the risk.

I bet a lot of the so called Mavericks you speak of had a vision of a day when captive bred lines of the species they worked with would be readily available to the public, and the shows we have today are largely the results of their efforts.
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3.0 WC; 0.3 CB L. getula californiae
1.0 CB L. getula nigrita
0.1.1 WC; 0.0.3 CH Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

"Many morphs,strains,localities and unique animals have been lost to the hobby because people sold out to ball pythons to ride that "golden wave". As our cage space has grown over the years---be honest---how many of you have kept more SPECIES not just more individuals? How many people with more than 100 snakes keep ANY that could be considered a RARE SPECIES, new species to the hobby, or a challenge for an expert keeper? You can argue that getting new stuff means WC and that incorperates parasite problems......but there are many other really neat species out there be it the GREEN BOIGA, locally endangered or extinct species(with permits of course),or the multitude of snakes who carry only a latin name because they have only recently been discovered by importers? BRAVO to the few who do try with those new species, are daring enough to try something different or unpopular, and can remember what it was like to go out in the field and hunt them to begin with! Thanks,Jeff

YES, Great stuff there Jeff. I am glad somebody said it.

Sometimes I wish that I was born just a decade or so earlier, I feel like the herp world was different. I love the weird stuff, the rare stuff, the stuff that I can't pronounce its name, the stuff that gives me a challenge. Working with animals that no one knows anything about is like a little piece of biological exploration right in your living room.

Conservation is also such a prime motivator. People should keep herps that are rare because they love them, find them interesting, and want to protect them. Today it seems that unless rare and expensive go hand in hand, the species have fallen off the face of the earth. Its good to see that some people out there still breed truely great locality lines of certain kings, boas, odd colubrids, and especially LOCAL SPECIES. Everyone is so psyched to save up and run out to drop a grand on a rhino rat, when they have smooth green snakes DISAPPEARING from their backyards!!

Some of my favorite animals in my collection that aren't run of the mill, and aren't worth anywhere near how rare they are or how freaking cool they are, are my anthill pythons and my hypo cal kings which probobly don't exist in the wild any more.

I know that there are some great folks on this forum who live and breathe snakes cuz they love them. And this is one of the only places that I can come on a regular basis to get that feeling.

cheers to everyone out there who is dedicated to this hobby.

Kind of like common e.milks one year marketed for 2K each and the next 400 a trio, reality sets in. I feel snakes prices should and ultimately will be set as to their ease of reproduction in captivity, sure morphs will fetch a little more, well until the “market” gets flooded w/them. Anyone remember amel calking prices in the 80’s? Did marketing help? We herpers/breeders are a very small part of the “pet trade” and it makes me sick to see some prices on very easy to breed snake species while species like acrochordus,ahuettula,boigi just to name a few fetch a fraction of that because of marketing, they are imported year after year after year but there is no money in reproducing them so wild pops will continue to be taken and killed in the pet trade because of marketing and imho that sucks! Ive kept and bred snakes for most of my life and ive made a little money but knowing and talking with several very successful (monetarily speaking) breeders over the years, to make real big money you have to have large numbers which in turn requires lots of time, work and marketing at which point you have to ask yourself is it really worth it? For some it is. Personally if I make my rodent bill for the season im happy. Do I want top dollar for a particularly rare morph I produce? Absolutely, if its truly a morph that breeds true. Some though are so desperate to “market” that anything that’s not the norm is all of a sudden a new morph that can be marketed for more money which in turn comes down to ethics,and ethical marketing is kind of like JUMBO shrimp it is what it is, i just wish some of the professional sales people or pro marketeers would take on the difficult species oh but then they would have to know as much about snake keeping as they do marketing,,,,,,,,thomas davis

Just for your recollection because it seems you forgot some detail....The milks I offered last year were a adult proven one-of-a-kind morph and a mate for $2k(just to get other people into them). I am offering them out of the egg this year at $400/trio as hets. You will notice that THAT price is a good one for ANY eastern milks as noone else has em.Though they"look the same to you", there are many locale breeders out there who still appreciate their uniquiness. They dont have to be ALBINO to be different and rare. They will never be ball pythons,you are right.J

nice try

Y'know, what you're saying is all well and good but I'M one of those "ball python people" taking resources away from your precious colubrids. I got my first ball python when I was five (obviously with parental help) and in the last year I've acquired two more. I also took in a w.c. california king and fell in love with him - which lead me to this forum, where I'm quietly doing research into what species/morph of king I want to get next.

My personal goal is own as many python species as I legally can, simply because I love pythons. This means the rarer ones and if I get the knowledge, time, money, and ability...I'd like to help with conservation of an endangered species. I'm going to college with this goal in mind. However, I started with ball pythons - is that somehow making me less "noble" in my intentions?

I don't quite understand your issues with the example being set for new hobbyists. I'm a "newcomer" to the hobby, despite having owned my female ball for 14 years, because only recently was I really able to appreciate the animal I own. However, I can still see the pros and cons of a wildcaught animal vs. a captive bred one, and the ban of wildcaught reptiles at shows makes sense to me. I think the example being set so far is a good one. Give new hobbyists a bit of a break; most of us really do have an IQ above 65.

I'll see your New England Sarcasm and raise you some Southern Californian Elitism.

~jenny
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1.2 normal ball pythons (Cindy, Darwin, and Periscope)
0.0.1 california kingsnake (Tetris)
1.0 rex rat (Scurvy)
1.0 gerbil (Yerbul)
0.1 bunny (Spazz)
1.1 betta fishes (Vicious and Killer)
2.2 great danes (Shasta, Odysseus, Merlot, and Watson)
1.0 fat fuzzy mutt (Smokey)
1.1 cats (Thidwick and Turtle)
2.0 horses (Buddy and Sam)
1.0 goat (Billy Jack)
1.25 chickens (Ugly the rooster and his harem)

"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." - Voltaire

While I wont bother with a colubrid/boid debate(to each their own), I will try to clarify what I meant to and about "newbies". WE NEED YOU, the hobby can not survive without you. To keep ball pythons because that was your first snake though.....if this were true EVERYONE with cb animals would have ball pythons.
To think you can keep "as many python species as possible"....this I would caution against. While I do like and appreciate everyone having to go through the learning curve of what and how to keep, I really appreciate breeders and the knowledge we have been able to pass on to hobbyists. I think we all went through that only to figure out that more numbers and fewer species makes breeding alot more managable. My arguement was that alot of people who are very good at breeding dont "graduate"to more challenging projects.
I dont mean that you have to get rid of your pet projects, I am just trying to challenge people to be more forward thinking and move through "regular" stuff and continue to try NEW THINGS. While some of what Bluerosy(to use as an example) does as far as "hybrids" goes I dont appreciate, as a body of work he is producing some NICE animals. Further, he has been forward thinking enough to continue to learn how to do these breedings....Even if most people dont use the info(some may even totally dissapprove), you have to admire the effort. And thats what I am talking about....not necessarily results but the effort. I guess what I am also asking is for several people to come to the realization that herp breeding is not a get rich quick thing and to get back into things that interest them even if its "plain" cornsnakes. I can remember 30 years ago when I thought "plain" corn snakes were the best looking snakes in the world. J

I see what you mean - but I just love my lazy laid back balls. I've fallen asleep with my female and woken up with her still curled up on my stomach (warmth is warmth!). Plus, there's nothing quite like the expression on a guy's face when I tell him not only do I have three balls, but they're bigger than his.
I read somewhere that there were only 27 python species, and I figured that if I were to skip amazons, retics, and burmese, that'd be a reasonable goal. And I want to play with monitors. And california kings. And rosies. Hey, if I'm dreaming I might as well dream big right?
There are so many corn morphs that I actually didn't know what a regular ole corn snake looked like until a few days ago, when I saw one at my local reptile store. I think they're gorgeous! I couldn't believe a regular cornsnake looked that cool when most of the morphs seem so monotone.
It'd be great if more of the hard to find species weren't so hard to find.
Gah, can't concentrate anymore, I keep having to chase down the water dragons. They're trying to go through the mirror...
Thank you for responding and not flaming.

~jenny
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1.2 normal ball pythons (Cindy, Darwin, and Periscope)
0.0.1 california kingsnake (Tetris)
0.2 rescue chinese water dragons
1.0 rex rat (Scurvy)
1.0 gerbil (Yerbul)
0.1 bunny (Spazz)
1.1 betta fishes (Vicious and Killer)
2.2 great danes (Shasta, Odysseus, Merlot, and Watson)
1.0 fat fuzzy mutt (Smokey)
1.1 cats (Thidwick and Turtle)
2.0 horses (Buddy and Sam)
1.0 goat (Billy Jack)
1.25 chickens (Ugly the rooster and his harem)

"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." - Voltaire

The one species of python I wanted as a kid - a Timor python.

I've seen them offered occasionally in the classifieds, though I don't currently have a spot for one (or plans).

Someday, I'll get a pair though.

I'd also someday like a pair of Diamond pythons.
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3.3 L. getula californiae
1.0 L. getula nigrita
1.0 Boa constrictor constrictor (suriname, fostering/rescue)
2.1.2 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

I've heard of the Timor before but the Diamond is a new one. I reeeeeally want some spotted and jungle pythons. And a pair of savus, even though I hear they're snappy while in their cage.

There's always room for another snake Might take some squeezing to get it in, but of course there's always room...haha.

~jenny
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1.2 normal ball pythons (Cindy, Darwin, and Periscope)
0.0.1 california kingsnake (Tetris)
0.2 rescue chinese water dragons
1.0 rex rat (Scurvy)
1.0 gerbil (Yerbul)
0.1 bunny (Spazz)
1.1 betta fishes (Vicious and Killer)
2.2 great danes (Shasta, Odysseus, Merlot, and Watson)
1.0 fat fuzzy mutt (Smokey)
1.1 cats (Thidwick and Turtle)
2.0 horses (Buddy and Sam)
1.0 goat (Billy Jack)
1.25 chickens (Ugly the rooster and his harem)

"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." - Voltaire

I am afraid, a comparison will be hard to make, as what is happening to BP's now, happened to colubrids in the mid to late seventies.

It has also occurred with many other species. Its more about timing then species. The lenght of time is about that species reproductive ability. The good thing about ball pythons is they are stable, that is, they lay small clutches and only have one clutch a year. They do produce enough offspring to keep the market stable. But not enough to quickly crash the market.

While many here have judged BP morphs as this or that, those that do are missing the point and the boat. It does not matter what the particular morph looks like now. Its its future(potential) that is important.

Unfortunately, the future for kingsnakes is grim. No matter what you produce, you will be giving them away very shortly. To many inexperienced breeders, with animals that produce quickly and abundantly.

Which means, prices in the low hundreds for rare morphs, not tens of thousands. And only for a short term, one or two seasons, not decades.

The problem of preception, many of you think folks get rich from breeding reptiles, that is nearly completely wrong. The folks that made money with reptiles, actually made money with business skills, and would have made as much or more, using those same skills in other areas. At least keeping reptiles is something we like. Cheers

"It has also occurred with many other species. Its more about timing then species. The lenght of time is about that species reproductive ability. The good thing about ball pythons is they are stable, that is, they lay small clutches and only have one clutch a year. They do produce enough offspring to keep the market stable. But not enough to quickly crash the market"

As you can remember the rosy market for locality specific animals was quite high, fetching $250-$300. for certain locales. Then the albino Whitewaters came along and they held their price for $2000. The same thing was said about them being less prolific (small litters and once a yr breeding)similar to what you arer saying about Ball Pythons.

The rosy boa market crashed in one weekend when a breeder who had many MANY of the albino whitewater rosys market them down from $2000. to $200.at a the Orlando Expo one year. After that the most you could get for a rare $250 rosys was $50.

Since then the morph market has improved (a liitle)with snows/axanthics ect. But for the most part a locality rosy is just still $50. I beleive the same will happen with the Ball market when someone dumps piebalds for nothing.

I dont see anyone dumping tons of Piebalds on the market and that kills the Ball market(im sure you were kidding), maybe those Pastels but how would that affect a Piebald. The Ball Market is more complex and larger than the Rosy's and Balls are a more popular snake to begin with as opposed to Rosy's. I think the Colubrid market is even more insane...I see Some of these Florida Brooksi going for hundreds of dollars and its crazy when they breed like wild rabbits. Same with some of the other subs as well...who the heck is gonna pay 500 plus for a snake when bny the time you are producing them they are selling for half that. I miss the old days when people just kept the stuff they like and didnt worry about making money. I truly hate when things move out of the "hobbyist realm" and into the "stock Market realm" I realize there is a fine line and its not so cut and dry but anything over 500 for a colubrid is INSANE and the same can be said for all those Ball's. Most of them look like nice normals and I cant understand why they go crazy for that....oh yeah its speculation fever "There's Gold in dem der Hills!"

I will add something to the colubrid market..If its a hard to breed species or one thats not prolific then a higher price may be justified but a friggin Kingsnake is prolific and any fool who pays more than 400-500 for one is not a wise person IMHO
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Big Jack Bronson

No less a fool then someone that would pay 10,20,or 50 thousand dollars for a ball python. Actually that goes beyond being a fool, that's insane. Most colubrids are not going to run in the four to five hunderd that price range, but indigos are a colubrid that come to mind. I think they are around 800-1000. A few high end corns, like a Lavender Motley or stripe I'm thinking. Some florida kings can run a good price, but I'm not sure which morphs are commanding top dollar now. Rainer's the pro in that department. But I can tell you this, I'll pay 500.00 for a high dollar brooks morph before I'll pay 5000.00 for a ball. Call me crazy.

>>I will add something to the colubrid market..If its a hard to breed species or one thats not prolific then a higher price may be justified but a friggin Kingsnake is prolific and any fool who pays more than 400-500 for one is not a wise person IMHO

Another example is the hypo coastal plains milks. Been around for years and years but still going strong at $400 a pop!

I have to disagree. White Sided Brooksi held their prce at 500 bucks a snake for quite a few years. Now the market may be flooded but many people were happy to buy into them and even if some of those people will only get 50 a snake from now on they will still make more money on thier initial investment. There are many types of people who work with snakes. Many are paranoid that they won't make a large profit while others are happy to break even. I have always done well be it 25 dollar animals or ones costing several hundred a snake regardless of how prolific they are. The only thing that annoys me with the Ball Market is the fact that because some guys really did well, many people who do not make an outrageous return on thier investment feel shot down. Some morphs took a hard hit, and I would be furious if I lost a huge sum of money. Others though will still make people money, especially those with many females. I got a good deal on my het albino Balls 2 years ago, I hope I do produce some one day but I was OK with the price and I am not discouraged with dropping prices now. I try to offer beautiful animals at a fair price. The one thing I have not done to date is over produce. This is a lot of peoples mistake. When eventually I do....I will simply not breed some of my collection the following year, because I will not dump my animals off simply because I have too many of them. Many who are unhappy with thier profits will leave the hobby, and that is fine with me.I am seeing it this year and some of the people who are bailing made a lot of money and then dumped on the customers who paid top dollar for their animals by lowering pricing dramatically and even selling thier breeders cheaper than people paid for hatchlings last year. It is a shame...but that's how it goes sometimes. Why will some people get higher prices for animals available elsewhere for much cheaper?? Well....I am sure it has to do with a Guarantee, customer service, and being able to offer the best of the best. I pay top dollar for what I want, and try to get prices I feel are fair for my own stuff, regardless of market price and how many others have the same snakes as I have. Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

I share Tom's philosophy here. I am making a slow, careful move into the hobby. I have no designs on making big dollars. I plan to eventually breed selected species because I like them.

I will also use my snakes in my science classroom. I have already sketched out a long term genetics lesson using Corns, I bring in my Pueblan for the mimicry lesson, and I use my Japanese and North American Rats in the evolution and biodiversity lessons.

The snakes I end up selling will be genetically diverse, healthy representatives of their species. I will try to avoid impulse sales and hopefully place my hatchlings with people who care as much about them as I do.
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0.1 Amelanistic Corn
0.1 Aberrant California King
1.0 Pueblan Milk
0.1 Blair's Gray Banded King
0.1 Blonde Trans Pecos Rat
1.0 Variable King
0.1 Chihuahua Mtn. King
0.1 Kunasir Island Rat
0.1 Baird's Rat

I dont think you really disagree with me if I read you right. I think we only differ on investments. Of al the people who purchased WS Brooksi how do we know how they feel about them or if they still keep them or if they made their money back ? I doubt anyone has polled the issue. I agree some folks have the income and really like somthing and they will pay 500 bucks for a WS but I also believe they justified the high cost in thinking its also an investment. I know I have when I in the past spent more than a few hundred bucks on a snake, or at least thats what I told my Wife HA HA HA! I harbor no hard feelings for people who sell expensive animals but to think people buy them for sheer joy especially when they 500 plus is not accurrate in all cases. Anyone knows the market will come down it always does i.e. Hypo Brooksi some of the Cal King Morphs. With WS Brooksi the question is why did they hold for 5 or so years ? Was the market contolled with holdbacks and selling mostly hets or possible hets ? Hypo Brooks were 675 when they first appeared (95 or so??, help me Brooks King experts)and after about 3 years they could be had for half that with a steady decline since and now as low as 50 bucks! Like I said If money is no object for you then buy what you like but if your smart and money is an object like it is to the majority of us then wait it out and get em at a fraction of the cost...just my mindset, older and wiser they say.
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Big Jack Bronson

I bought some hypo brooksi (Love and Beard stock)when they first came out for $700.-750. and I made my money back on them many times over. I still am making money off those same snakes today.

I think the reason they were $375 three years later was because the Loves sold some unknown hets from the animals that the snakes first came from and the hypos were popping up all over the country.

Depends upon what you want to do.

There's definitely some snakes where I would prefer to wait until they become cheaper.

However, if it fits into something I want to do, then paying $500 for a snake that will be $200 in 2 years makes sense simply because waiting two years to work with it puts what I want to do on the back burner. And for what, to save $300? How much a month would it cost me to get into it at $500 instead of waiting 2 years? Not that much.

However - I'm not buying anything super expensive until I have my system working and working well. Cal Kings are good for that - and I like them - and it will be fun to produce amel and lavender blizards - just to do it

So many people out there sell double and triple hets.
I think it would be neat to sell melanistics that are double het for both types of lavender. That way, a customer can get a pair - and produse two different types of blizards from a single clutch.

Plus - as Kerby has demonstrated - you can get some really weird unexpected side affects from these projects.

So working with primarily with cal kings until I am more experienced is both cheap and fun - but if there was something that really fit into something I was doing, paying a high price when I know it will drop drastically in a few years means I get to play with the genes sooner.

I think it would be fun at some point to play with the black milksnake and hybrids - and see id the color change from tricolor to black in that snake can be tweaked in hybrids to produce other cool effects as the snakes age.
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3.0 WC; 0.3 CB L. getula californiae
1.0 CB L. getula nigrita
0.1.1 WC; 0.0.3 CH Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

Hey Big Jack, on my site is an article about becoming a breeder. I mention an example of investing 2000 dollars on a pair of snakes and then knowing it would most likely produce 20 babies the first year I breed it. Now even if I sold the babies for 100 a piece...I'd still not have lost anything. Chances are I would make a lot more than that, especially the first year or two. Sure prices WILL fall, but you are right when you say "who knows how much the people breeding these snakes truly care for them"[may not be exactly what you said..]. I love Brooksi and have a bunch of them....I can not see myself getting out of them wether they're valuable or not. I will try not to overproduce common morphs, and will try like hell to produce something new. I hope for the best and just enjoy the snakes for what they were to me initially...and that is pets. Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Posted by: BIGJACK at Fri Nov 17 10:34:01 2006 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

I dont see anyone dumping tons of Piebalds on the market and that kills the Ball market(im sure you were kidding), maybe those Pastels but how would that affect a Piebald. The Ball Market is more complex and larger than the Rosy's and Balls are a more popular snake to begin with as opposed to Rosy's.

Yes the BP are more popular on the east coast. But at the time of the rosys they were so VERY popular that they sold like hotcakes. The rosy reputation for this popularity had not even reached the east coast before the market crashed on them. It left a lot of people with investments and thinking they had $2000. babies when they all of a sudden could not sell them for $200. Pretty harsh reality.

I think the Colubrid market is even more insane...I see Some of these Florida Brooksi going for hundreds of dollars and its crazy when they breed like wild rabbits. Same with some of the other subs as well...who the heck is gonna pay 500 plus for a snake when bny the time you are producing them they are selling for half that.

The whitesided florida kings have ekpt their price at $500 for 5 years. This was the year they crashed.

I miss the old days when people just kept the stuff they like and didnt worry about making money. I truly hate when things move out of the "hobbyist realm" and into the "stock Market realm" I realize there is a fine line and its not so cut and dry but anything over 500 for a colubrid is INSANE and the same can be said for all those Ball's. Most of them look like nice normals and I cant understand why they go crazy for that....oh yeah its speculation fever "There's Gold in dem der Hills!"

To me a snake is not about wether its $20. or $500. snake. Its about WHAT you like. Some of my favorite snakes are not worth a dime. For instance I really like the new amelanistic glossy snakes. I have kept CB glossys and they are great feeders. Easy to care for. But do you see anyone paying attention to such a rare morph? Or better yet how many people even breed normal glossys?? They are just like corns in size and tempermant. Makes no sense to me.
Hey the cool really rare stuff is still out there. i would prefer to have something like that instead of a dumb(literally) BP with zero personality.

With all that going on, you do not HAVE to breed reptiles to make money. You can and do take advantage of the beautiful snakes that were produced, once they were affordable.

Investment breeding is not for everyone and like I mentioned, its very much about timing. For instance in my case, I hatched some reptiles that were the first in the world, and they have a huge market. I really have to choice but to ride the wave(market) I made lots of money. But I knew all along that was temporary. I have done that many times in my life. I have been lucky.

But I am not a commerial breeder. The reason is, I do not make decisions based on money, I base them on my love of reptiles and whatever behavior I am interested in. Fortunately, reproductive behavior in reptiles is very interesting and little known, so it leads to offspring. Cheers

Firstly, are there any sites/books you recommend to learn about glossys? Never heard of them before but they sound interesting.

Secondly:
Comparing a ball python's personality to a colubrids is like comparing a bull dog's personality to a jack russell terrier's. Both have personalities, it's just a different pace.

~jenny
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1.2 normal ball pythons (Cindy, Darwin, and Periscope)
0.0.1 california kingsnake (Tetris)
0.2 rescue chinese water dragons
1.0 rex rat (Scurvy)
1.0 gerbil (Yerbul)
0.1 bunny (Spazz)
1.1 betta fishes (Vicious and Killer)
2.2 great danes (Shasta, Odysseus, Merlot, and Watson)
1.0 fat fuzzy mutt (Smokey)
1.1 cats (Thidwick and Turtle)
2.0 horses (Buddy and Sam)
1.0 goat (Billy Jack)
1.25 chickens (Ugly the rooster and his harem)

"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." - Voltaire

The reason why glossy snakes will never catch on is because, like the equally cool longnose snake, they are lizard eaters. Yes, some will take mice, but a significant percentage of them will only eat lizards and that's a major inconvenience to most keepers.

Tim

Third Eye

Posted by: tspuckler at Sun Nov 19 09:26:14 2006 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

The reason why glossy snakes will never catch on is because, like the equally cool longnose snake, they are lizard eaters. Yes, some will take mice, but a significant percentage of them will only eat lizards and that's a major inconvenience to most keepers.

I have had many Captive Born gloosys from the low desert that ate pinks right from the start. No scenting or other tricks were needed.

I think where most people get this misconception is from wildcaught glossys or CB glossys from AZ. For some reason the AZ locales CB are hard to get started on mice.

Tim, I am changing that as we speak! My male longnose went right to mice and has never refused a meal! He is a very large adult to boot. My female is another matter, but she has taken 4 unassisted fuzzies, she is a 2 yr old. After brumation I think she will convert. I will keep the first batch back and work with them on an all rodent diet, my glossies are not as problematic as the Rhinos.
Todd Hughes

Todd,

You got glossys? Where are they from? Wildcaught or C/B? Have you successufully bred them?

W.c. Texas glossies from Kleberg/Kennedy counties in south Texas. Not breeding yet probably 08.
Todd Hughes

I'd love it if we could get lines of longnose and glossy snales that are rodent feeders. They are both very cool snakes. I think it's possible that with selective breeding, both types could produce mostly rodent-eating young, but it would take some time and dedication to achieve this.

I've only worked with Vegas locality glossys, it would be intersting to know if most Arizonas (which I think are a seperate subspecies) will take rodents.

Tim

I think the big ones normally take rodents in the wild but supplimental to diet, like greybands, but it takes a lot of hunting and lizards to equal a nest of mice or a few adults, plus the weanlings can't get away making for an easy score. I am putting the work in as we speak, Maverick reporting for duty, sir!
Todd Hughes

Ohhh, phooey. The big print giveth, the small print taketh away.
Although a feeder colony of anoles would probably be less smelly than a feeder colony of rats/mice.
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1.2 normal ball pythons (Cindy, Darwin, and Periscope)
0.0.1 california kingsnake (Tetris)
0.2 rescue chinese water dragons
1.0 rex rat (Scurvy)
1.0 gerbil (Yerbul)
0.1 bunny (Spazz)
1.1 betta fishes (Vicious and Killer)
2.2 great danes (Shasta, Odysseus, Merlot, and Watson)
1.0 fat fuzzy mutt (Smokey)
1.1 cats (Thidwick and Turtle)
2.0 horses (Buddy and Sam)
1.0 goat (Billy Jack)
1.25 chickens (Ugly the rooster and his harem)

"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." - Voltaire

I really like the pinkish tones in those animals, but the Texans are what I have to work with. Super calm.
Todd Hughes

Yes the TX glossys are super calm. I have a huge female (mouse eater) that escaped about 6 yrs ago. I still miss that snake.

You should have read between the lines and with your experience. Of course all of these trends have a set amount of time they can exsist. They also have a period of buildup leveling off and drop off. That is clear with more then just reptiles. Its true with all of this type of product.

Your example with the rosies shows the BP breeders learned from the Rosy breeders. They are controlling the market much better(which is good for all)

The steepness of the decline in a certain market is indeed based on poor decisions. For instance, many second tier breeders by a investment reptile for X price, then when they finally recieve sellable offspring, they dump them commonly for half the price. They do this because They seem to be simply looking to cover in their investment and not a profit.

There are many reasons why markets lose value. From simple ignorance to things so simple as not understanding you need to invest in holding the offspring, and not dropping the price the minute one does not sell.

An educated breeder understands the 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 investment profile. 1/3 the price of the breeders, 1/3, price of breeding them, 1/3, price of holding and marketing them. This makes up a balanced investment. Not merely acquiring a pair of something and dumping because your not prepared to hold them.

Which leads to this, BP's are easy and cheap to hold. Which as a student of behavior makes them boring as a stone. Cheers

Which leads to this, BP's are easy and cheap to hold. Which as a student of behavior makes them boring as a stone. Cheers

LOL, Agreed!

I would hope that people learned from the rosy market. But there is no gurantee that the BP breeders are not going to dump there animals for nothing. I know a few people who have over 50 het Piebalds in the collection. What are they going to do with the babies when they are born? Have you seen how many piebalds were at Daytona this year?...And how many sold?

There was also a fight between the top BP breeders right outside of the BP talks this year. It was between three of the speakers and security had to physically pull one guy outside. This proves people will never agree on anything.

The ball python market crashing. Of course it will, investment markets always crash. The point is, if your willing to gamble money based on your husbandry skills, you better have the skills and have good timing.

For instance, your friends with their hets. There are several areas to take advantage of a moving market. First to make new appealing morphs. Or take advantage of the secondary markets(different levels of profit). Like, how many sell for $20,000, how many sell for $10,000, then how many sell for $5000, etc.

In reality, there is great profit to be had in all but the very bottom(the crash).

In most cases, folks make their money back, if they are a successful breeder. Of course how fast and how much you make depends on the above.

In your case, you seem like your talking yourself out of testing the market. Thats your right. But I think there is still lots of money to be mad with ball pythons. The reason is, there are many many morphs, which means new morphs are there to be made. Cheers

You are right, I have talked myself out of the ball python market. For several reasons. First is I don't like BPs. To me they all look alike. I don't see that much of a difference between most of the morphs. Second with the time required after investing I would rather put my money into a market account or some other sort of business venture. I mean that is what these have become. I had many of these valuable BP's slip through my hands for $20 right before the market went crazy on these things. I would have been thee biggest propnent of BP's if i got on the plane early. I guess I am a bit jaded or bitter perhaps..

~ZF
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Royal ReptileZ
Home of Bklyn's Finest Brooksi

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signature file edited 4/22/06; contact an admin.

I think on the pro breeders website, there is an article on how to choose species/specimens to breed and sell.
I think to sell well you need timing, business skills,luck, good communication in person and on the phone/over the web, a decent web site and presence at several local/regional/national expos for at least a little while (couple years) until you can try to sell off of a reputation.

KS classifieds and word of mouth (after doing several years of shows)have helped me most. I haven't had much luck with other web classifieds and haven't done magazine ads in so long because they are too expensive. Does anyone still read herp magazines? I do sometimes...

I initially dabbled in a lot of different things and tried to have a little of everything, but I did not enjoy that. So i whittled down to what I enjoyed working with most and have had the best success with that.

The past few years, I have offered a flat rate for shipping and free shipping over a certain purchase amount. I hate paying an extra $70 when I just forked over a bunch of bananas for snakes, and I have learned other people hate the additional expense, too. A new clean box that is packed well with no loose critters is the first real impression that web customers will have of you when it shows up on their door. If people cannot pack well, they might not put too much attention into husbandry either and would not get my return business.

I don't know if people still care about please and thank you, but when emailing or speaking to a past, current or potential customer, I use it hoping that it will differentiate me from a doofus and help sell a quality product. I use it when I purchase, too. Maybe I will get to reserve the best animal the guy has available or at least the one I want.

And you know what, there are a number of people I wouldn't sell a wet poopy shed to. Characteristics that make a good seller also apply to being a good customer. I will go the extra mile anytime for a good customer, but will not sell to someone that creates a difficult relationship. Its my hobby, I don't need any unnecessary grief.

daveb