Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I found this article on another forum. Wondered if any of you had any thoughts....

Fatty Liver Disease In Reptiles
Written by Tricia Power
Saturday, 04 March 2006

It's very hard to find good information on Fatty Liver disease in reptiles. Even my Mader's Reptile Medicine and Surgery (first edition) didn't discuss this problem.

Fatty liver disease or hepatic lipidosis, is really is a symptom of other disorders that might affect reptiles. It's a metabolic disease. The liver is a very important organ - and when it starts to fail other organs start to fail, including the heart.

80% of the liver is made up of Hepatocytes which are the chief functional cells of the liver and perform an astonishing number of metabolic, endocrine and secretory functions. Roughly 80% of the mass of the liver is contributed by hepatocytes.

Often, during necropsy, when an animal is diagnosed as passing away from a secondary cause of fatty liver disease the hepatocytes cells are found to have fatty changes. Occasionally during necropsy, a pathologist might find signs of Xanthomatosis, which is a condition in which fatty deposits occur in various parts of the body. These fatty deposits are called xanthomas or xanthomata and appear as yellowish firm nodules in the skin. Xanthomas are in themselves a harmless growth of tissue. However, they frequently indicate the presence of underlying diseases such as diabetes and disorders of fats (lipid disorder or hyperlipidemia). Under the microscope, a xanthoma consists of lipid-laden foam cells. These cells, termed histiocytes, contain lipid material in their cytoplasm (the nonnuclear zone of the cell).

Long periods of anorexia (not eating) can cause the liver to metabolize fats poorly once the animal begins to eat again. when the liver can't metabolize fats in the diet properly it becomes fatty and begins to function poorly.

My gut feeling is that with our reptiles, extended periods of anorexia is the leading cause of fatty liver disease. When our animals become sick with parasite infections or when they become gravid they tend to not eat. If they remain sick for long periods I think the chances of them developing some liver problems when they start to eat again is good- especially if they are being fed diet items that are high in fat.

My suggestion is that when your reptile is recovering from an illness that has caused it to stop eating for a period of time, please start the herp on a low fat, low protein diet.

Many people give their reptiles food items that are known to be high in fat- such as waxworms when they aren't eating well or when they are recovering from illness. They often do this in an attempt to put the weight back on the animal quickly, but what they really might be doing is harming the reptiles liver.

Please start off with items such as earthworms or low fat, low protein slurries until the animal is starting to do better. Then gradually get it back to it's normal diet. If we are careful about how we start them back on food we may lessen the chances of them developing liver problems simply from beginning to eat again.
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Jenea

2:3:1 Tricolor Hognose (plus babies)
4:2 Eastern Hognose
1:2 Western Hognose
0:2 Southern Hognose
0:0:3 Florida Redbelly Snakes
0:1 Gulf Coast Box Turtle
1:1 Red-eared Slider
1:2 Eastern Fence Lizards
2:0 Cats
1:1 Kids
1:0 Spouse

Thanks for digging this up Jenea. Everything stated was true to my knowledge.

What are the 2 most common topics on this forum? How to switch a hog to mice and why has it stopped eating. It's no wonder that fatty liver disease got directly associated with feeding mice. It just goes to show how baseless people's claims are about mice, they don't even know the root cause of hepatic lipidosis! If some of these people did 5 minutes of research on the topic, they could easily see what causes it and say to themselves, "oh yeah, my hog DOES stop eating for 3 months every year, maybe THAT'S what killed it and not feeding it mice!"

Sorry, I always get kind of worked up about this topic. But thanks for bringing it up. Eventually, we need a website just for the topic of captive husbandry of hogs, and start accumulating reasons why mice are ok, and why you shouldn't feed amphibians.

>>My gut feeling is that with our reptiles, extended periods of anorexia is the leading cause of fatty liver disease.
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Virginia Herping
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/VaHS
Virginia Herpetological Society online store
http://www.cafepress.com/vaherpsociety

"The irrational fear of snakes is the only excuse a grown man has... to act like a complete sissy" - Colchicine

That makes perfect sense, but in my experience, the ones i lost this year were all great eaters, no periods of fasting at all, even when gravid.Most of my female hogseat right up till thier pre-lay shed, I have one who stops eating as soon as she ovulates.
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www.hognose.co.uk

Did you get a necropsy or at least have someone to look at them to determine a cause of death? It would be nice to have followups on hognose deaths so that we can get a feel for what they are most sensitive to.

>>That makes perfect sense, but in my experience, the ones i lost this year were all great eaters, no periods of fasting at all, even when gravid.Most of my female hogseat right up till thier pre-lay shed, I have one who stops eating as soon as she ovulates.
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>>www.hognose.co.uk
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Virginia Herping
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/VaHS
Virginia Herpetological Society online store
http://www.cafepress.com/vaherpsociety

"The irrational fear of snakes is the only excuse a grown man has... to act like a complete sissy" - Colchicine

Yes, they were all necropsied by a top Uk Herpetologist. They had died basiclly from thier liver being so full of fat that they could no longer function properly. Even though non of my animals looked over fat, ie they had no fatty external blobs of fat, inside they were absolutely loaded with fat tissues. I have necropsie reports and nasty photos to back them up.
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www.hognose.co.uk

I am new to hogs (I have a Western hatchling) and snakes in general, so I have several questions here. This article talks about fatty liver disease in reptiles in general, and yet it seems to be taken for granted by Colchisine and evilelvis that this is particularly a concern with hogs. Now my first question is -- are Western hogs very difficult to keep with regards to feeding? I am still gathering as much info as I can and am now wondering what I need to watch out for. My understanding from what I have read so far is that the Western Hog eats rodents in the wild, and the Southern and Eastern eat amphs, but that they sometimes can be switched. Do Westerns stop eating for periods of time as well?

Then you say, evilelvis, "the ones i lost this year were all great eaters, no periods of fasting at all, even when gravid." And that makes me think of something else -- could the cause of fatty liver disease in some cases at least be simply a matter of overeating, period?

The reason I say this is that I am just now reading my way through "The Art of Keeping Snakes" with which you are probably familiar, by Philippe de Vosjoli who is an authority on snake keeping for many, many years. Some people might have read his book when they started out just like I am doing now, but forgot since what he says on feeding because it was drowned out by the general consensus that is repeated everywhere - pet stores, snake books, forums, etc. to feed once a week (colubrids, anyway). So forgive me for quoting him somewhat extensively here, I don't mean to insult anybody. But I am very interested in what your opinion is about this:

"The standard feeding schedule in the snake-keeping hobby is once a week. If a snake hibernates for three to four months out of the year, this means that a snake requires 30 -46 meals a yar. However, many vertebrate eating snakes in the wild survive on a fraction of this amount; with most species it is possible to keep them in good condition with meals every 10 - 14 days, or 22 - 30 times a year. One effect of a reduced feeding regime is that snakes take longer to grow and mature and tend to produce fewer eggs per clutch. If your primary interest is to breed large numbers of snakes then definitely stay on a once-a-week feeding schedule with females of most snakes. Studies have shown that the breeding potential of female snakes is directly related to their relative weight/energy reserves. On the other hand, leaner, more slowly grown snakes are more active and do not suffer from obesity or breeding problems such as egg-binding. They may also end up living longer than the stuffed sausages that are now increasingly common in our hobby." Gulp. As I said, I am new to this, and I haven't really noticed this as I have no point of reference, really. He goes on to say:

"I find that the captive-raised snakes I purchase appear fat, almost bloated, so I maintain them on a reduced feeding regimen to allow them to gradually lose weight and achieve optimal condition. To determine when to feed your snake, try waiting until it shows the high activity level associated with hunting for at least one day. Remember, however, that most snakes are crepuscular and nocturnal, so this high activity level is often observable only at night....

... Because my regimen is one-third to one-half the standard weekly regimen, snakes raised under this schedule take almost twice as long to reach sexual maturity as 'power-fed' specimens. With some species we have conducted experiments where snakes were fed every two to three weeks. They required up to three times longer to mature than snakes kept under an intense weekly feeding regimen. These slow-grown snakes tend to more closely match the maturity time and growh rates of snakes in the wild."

He goes on to say "If you provide a snake with everything it needs all the time - including food - the results will be inactivity and obesity."

The downside of this is that "hungry snakes tend to be more active and more prone to striking and biting."

Perhaps it all comes down to this: do we want tame pets (tame as in sluggish, and possibly ill), or animals whose behavior resembles more closely to what it would be like in its natural habitat-- which might also translate into "lean and mean".

Just as a reminder - he advocates naturalistic habitats for snakes where they really do have the space to exhibit hunting behavior. To keep a ravenous snake in a shoe box ready to jump in your face everytime you open the lid would of course be silly.

What do you think of all this? Could fatty liver disease be related to overeating and inactivity? If we draw parallels between what is going on in the human population in terms of obesity and what seems to be happening in captive snakes (which I wasn't aware of until now), one has to wonder... According to the article, a confused metabolism might be to blame in some cases (just as extreme on and off dieting in humans can be detrimental and only leading to more weight gain), but apparently, as in evilelvis's snakes, perhaps overeating is the culprit of prematurely going into snake heaven.

Any thoughts?

I missed this when you posted, it being buried so far down after the original article. Very thought provoking. It prompted me to buy "The Art Of Keeping Snakes." (Up till now all my snake care books have been species-specific, not general.)

I'd like to know if fatty liver disease has been shown to be more prevalent in one species of hognose vs the others, and if it doesn't occur at all (or occurs at the same frequency of snakes in general).

I needed to be reminded of that article since I am feeding an Eastern Hoggy who was on an eight week hunger strike. And I have a yearling Tri- who was on a weekly feeding schedule when I got him, but I'd been feeding him on the five day plan with the babies.

My adult corn was being fed weekly, and started refusing, and has since been changed to every 10-14 days. This is certainly healthier for her. She sure gets active after about ten days!

I also have my guys out a _lot_. They get a lot of exercise.

I saw a picture of an adult Corn that someone had been given at a show. It was the most obese snake I have ever seen. So everyone's kind of making jokes about it, but I guess that snake really needs to get on a diet and get down to a healthy weight.

Well, just some thoughts brought on by your post.

Nanci
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*****
0.0.1 Normal Corn, 0.0.1 Cali King 0.1 Nelson's Milk
0.1 Tricolor Hog, 0.0.1 Eastern Hog, 1.0 Eastern Box Turtle
0.0.2 Desert Torts, 2.0 Feral Pigeons