Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Last season they were 8K . Now you can get one for 5-6K. I thought recessives were suposed to maintain value? Pieds stayed at 5-6K for a few years I just don't get why any one would take two grand less a year later.
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"yeah, eagles have feathers hanging off of them too and I don't smoke --- out of them!" PS it was a dream catcher!

Same thing with Mojaves...I paid a guy 2700...six months later he's selling them for 800. Talking about bleepity bleep bleep. Guess he's into one sale customers.
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Dale....dgoins222@yahoo.com

Man, I don't mind an active market but this market is actively killing itself! It's like if a snake doesn't sell instantaniously you drop the price by a thousand dollars! I just don't get it. I don't do this for the money. Honestly I don't even make money yet. This will be my first year producing anything and I don't intend to sell any. My beef is that there is no rhyme or reason to it.
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"yeah, eagles have feathers hanging off of them too and I don't smoke --- out of them!" PS it was a dream catcher!

they were like 8K last year, weren't they? The reason I wanted to get into ball pythons was that at the prices they demanded they were unlikely to go to people who didn't know what to do with them. Man am I glad I'm investing in an apartment building this year! Maybe I'll get into rare snakes like angolans that will hold their value?
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"yeah, eagles have feathers hanging off of them too and I don't smoke --- out of them!" PS it was a dream catcher!

>> Maybe I'll get into rare snakes like angolans that will hold their value?

Smart idea! Angolans are awesome animals (non hybrids). Also, Borneo Short-Tails! I love my Ball Pythons and keep a fair amount for a small collection, but they pretty much pale in comparison to keeping what I feel is the 'pinnacle' of the larger 'pet' Python. Borneo's are robust, NEVER EVER refuse a meal (unless very sick/near death or a gravid female) and have colors/patterns that make a lot of snakes just look plain boring! Just my thoughts on neat alternatives...

Matt

Matt, That's an awesome animal. Is that a Borneo? How big do they get?
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Dale....dgoins222@yahoo.com

Hey Dale,

>>That's an awesome animal.

Thank you!

>> Is that a Borneo?

It sure is. A nice one I produced last season. I'm sure the new keeper will have some new pics to post on the Blood forum in the near future...right?!

>> How big do they get?

There is some degree of variation in size with different bloodlines and locales, but 4 to 6 feet is the general range. My adults are now going on 9 years age and are pretty much at their adult size. I don't expect them to grow a whole lot over the coming years. They are getting closer to the 6 foot mark and not sure on the weight, but I'd 'guestimate' around 20 - 25 pounds now. Both are tame and the male is a REAL 'corn' snake if you will. He just does not care about much when being handled, etc... Personally, the only real issue I feel is a 'concern' is their feeding response. I've had just a couple babies over the years give me a hard time with feeding. Normally, the feeding response is just flat out INSANE! In my opinion (having worked with Bloods and Short-Tails since 1995) care must be taken to NOT be part of the meal when these snakes are 'fired' up and there are rodents in the room. The feeding response in larger adults can be slightly intimidating, but something you get used to as they grow. You learn to respect it! Ever get fed UP with Ball Pythons that won't feed consistent when you really wish they would so you could make that morph you saved all your pennies buying those hets for in the first place??? Well, that does not happen very often with these snakes. These are the 'true' garbage disposals of the Python world in my opinion.

Matt
p.s. - Yes, I STILL love my Ball Pythons and always will. I've kept Ball Pythons longer (14 years) than any other snake species I currently have... but the Borneos 'rule' in my opinion. Sorry to have 'hijacked' this part of the thread...

Definitely beautiful Matt, you got me interested. And thanks for hijacking the thread, kind of gave this issue a positive side.
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Dale....dgoins222@yahoo.com

It's not the same with Mojaves...Mojaves are co-dom...clowns are recessive. I think Mojaves are about where they should be. Don't expect clowns to be going for $800 any time soon...

it is all about supply and demand and how rare animals are.
you have to remember everything that we have here is also being mass produced in africa. and morphs are coming in buy the thousands. also money is has been tight across the board with high oil prices over the summer. people did not have the money to spend or invest in animals. the other reason is people thought the could make hundreds of thousands at this. so you have people who put all the money they had in to this. and people are not buying. so what do you do sell animals for what ever you can get or lose your house default on bank loans. you also have people who just dont care. their collections are payed off and every thing they produce is profit.
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Albinos Unlimited home of the Jester ball.
website coming soon

I don't want to get into a debate about the market. I guess it is what it is. We can all be dissapointed in the actions of some people, but that's not going to change anything. The only thing that I wanted to point out is that these animals aren't being massed produced in africa. Yes there are mutations that come out of Africa, but there is only on person that is producing mutations, and he's only producing a handful of clutches a year. He's not even producing a hundred animals that are worth money. Yes there are tons of CH Balls that come in, but very few are mutations. I don't mean to point out this to down talk to anyone. I just don't want people to get the wrong impression of how it works in Africa. Sorry if I ruffle anyones feathers. Thanks, Brian

your insight and comments are always helpful and much appreciated.
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Kyle
www.royalvariations.com

"be safe, be happy and dont let anyone make you afraid" David Coverdale

Ditto...

clowns are still worth more than they were several years ago, same with ghosts. I remember when you could get a pair of ghosts for less than a grand, now look at the price. A price drop of only 2k in one year is maintaining better than the established co-doms. If let's say breeder X bought a clown male last year @ $8k along with 5 het females @ $2k. Next year the females are up to size and he gets 3 clutches of 6 eggs. 18 babies and 9 of those are clowns and the price drops further to 2k per snake, how is that not a killer investment? He's also got 4 pairs of hets that he can sell at roughly $500 so that's a return of $20k on a $18k investment, and he still has 5 breedable het females and the male. Now that's breaking even in 2.5yrs if the price plummets on them, more than likely they will be around $3.5-$4k next year so that person actually would probably make a nice profit.

Now if that person put that male clown with a pastel female too, and holds back all the pastels het clown, the following year he/she could produce pastel clowns that will still be selling for really good coin. Those that have problems with the natural drop of prices need to get out of morphs all together. The only time when I have a problem with price dropping is when a breeder intentionally crashes the market to try to squeeze other breeders out.
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Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons:::

1.0 striped vanilla
1.0 spider
1.2 Citrus Ghost and hets
1.2 Albino and hets
2.3 het Pied
0.6 50% poss het pied
1.1 Pastel (male has additional gene going on with him)
a bunch of normal female breeders
a bunch of normal female holdbacks and several rescued normal males

0.1 columbian boa, she's a feeding monster, controls my
over production of rats, lol
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa, another rat eating monster
1.1 corns

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

is that there are tons of every breed of dog and cat thereis with a few exceptions and you will never see a nice persian drop in price like that.
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"yeah, eagles have feathers hanging off of them too and I don't smoke --- out of them!" PS it was a dream catcher!

Borneos rock! They are definitely on my wish list.
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"yeah, eagles have feathers hanging off of them too and I don't smoke --- out of them!" PS it was a dream catcher!

Could be because an individual person isn't capable of or looking to own DOZENS of dog or cat breeds.

With low maintenance pets like herps, an individual is capable of owning dozens, and even hundreds, of herps.

One factor that stands out to me when I think about the ups and downs in the Ball market is VARIETY of choice.

If a Ball keeper 'grows tired' of looking at their normals and decides they want a morph, they have sooooo many choices.

It's not like back in the mid to late 90s when you had virtually ONLY recessives (albino, caramels, hypo, pied, clown, axanthic...pastel being the only co-dom for awhile) to select from. You could pony up $7500 for an albino or 'accept' your normals and wait for prices to come down.

Nowadays? Well, look at all of the quickly re-produceable doms and co-doms.
Pastels, Spiders, Mojaves, Cinnamons/Blk Pastels, Lessers, Butters, Pinstripes, Calicos, Granites, YellowBellies, Womas, Fires, Sables, Harlequins, Het Red Axanthics, Spotnoses, Vanillas, Thunders, Vin Russo's het Blue-eyeds, and so on.

What about when the OTHER proven co-doms become more common or available to the general public? (You know, Ralph's Phantoms, the Bells' non-hybrid Angolan Balls, BHB's Chocolates, Jared's Apricots, Shatter Patterns, Ian Gniazdowski's Red Stripes, Oz's Orange Dreams, and on and on and on.... )

In my opinion, it's not so much that one particular 'sub-market' (ie: Mojave or Pastel) has become saturated or over-produced but the entire Ball Python genre that's currently saturated as much by freedom of choice than one particular morph.

While there ARE people who will pay $25K for a snake as a pet, the more common person is looking to make atleast make their money back.
I can't help but chuckle when I see a classified for a rarer combo morph (HoneyBee, Spinner, just to give examples) and the seller says 'demand for this snake will be strong for years to come'.
Why the chuckle? Because, if $800 snakes aren't selling quickly who are you to look into the future and tell me that $20K and up snakes will have demand? I'm sure I'm not the only person who laughs at these advertisements...

Just some lazy Saturday afternoon musings....

Suppertime! Mmmm, cheddar chive & garlic smashed potatos! C'est bonne!

BB

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"Have you hugged your drummer today?" --- Me

When I think of morphs that will be popular for "years to come", I never think that they will stay at the same price.

A honeybee will have appeal for many many years because it is a beautiful snake. It will be popular once it hits the pet stores!

I wonder how long it will be before honeybees and pastel clowns and albino pieds fall below $1K apiece?

Once I have paid off my debts, a grand for a snake is pretty good! And the animals that really look stunning will hold that price longer.

Just my $.02.

Chris
Coils Select Serpents