Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This has been brewing for years now and just picking up steam with this disaster in Indiana. What did Thomas E. report to many of us at(SHHS the meeting 2004 or 2005 in SC? He gave a talk at the AZA's annual meeting about Hot Herps in the private community. What was there two biggest grips against US? 1) Almost no one keeps stocks of A/V for the species they keep. 2) Poor captive care and high mortality of privately owned Herps. Over the past two years PETA & USHS has been working with lawmakers enacting ban after ban. Wake-UP CALL!! If we don't organize and do something fast to show this hobby can be done safely with proper husbantry. Were history!

We also need to deal with dangers to our Herp community and the greater community at large by not giving wackos the time of day. I don't waste my time with people like the "Rabbit" anymore because they don't listen (because they already know it all) and end up bad mouthing the forum and it's members anyway. They are just a train-wreck waiting to happen. Peta & USHS is waiting too, for these wrecks to fuel their drive to ban the captive keeping of everything, save Cat, Dogs, and maybe Goldfish.

I renew my call (I suggested this right after hearing Thomas's talk but it when no where) for some yet un formed organization or an exsiting one like SHHS or IHS to set a written list of husbantry & safety standards and have a "Certification" process, sort of what a AZA facility goes through. No, not every standard could be met by AZA terms but we need to start somewhere and we need to start NOW. Time for action is short...

Al
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Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

Al, while I do understand the wake up call, and did a few years ago, there are very few IF ANY that keep their own AV for EVERY species they keep. I think that is going abit far. But I do believe that EVERYONE should have access to AV, and not a zoo's stock, whether it be by an AV bank or a person with common interest, in the event of a bite. I am all for any type of actions that will lead to better, safer keeping of these animals, and am still for the developement of any AV banks and protocol's. What could be better than a tightly knit, organized community? Nothing. Which is what we need to be, even if the flight by nighter's want no part in it, we can still do it the responsible way until the new fad goes away. It will go away, and it will only be us with our passion's. If there isn't an all out ban first. You have my e-mail addy, LET ME KNOW WHAT I CAN DO TO HELP.

What good does an A/V bank do if you need the antivenin right away? In a severe bite, you don't have hours to live, you may have 30 minutes or less. Even if A/V were extremely easy to obtain, I can guarantee you that very few private keepers would be willing to pay the kind of money it takes to keep a recommended minimal supply....and that's just plain wrong. Hospitals, for the most part, don't keep exotic antivenins unless they are near a major zoo (and in those cases, its designed to protect the zookeepers). Acquiring and keeping A/V is no one else's responsibility except for the person keeping the venomous herps. Stop using the "very few venomous keepers keep A/V so that must mean that it's acceptable" logic. It is difficult to obtain A/V but I can betcha anything that if it were easy, no one would get it anyway. When you see how many young folks are keeping hots who can't even take care of themselves (or have a parent doing that) you can see why the issue of responsible hot keeping becomes such an issue.

Now, I do know of professional venomous keepers (private individuals) who have made arrangements with area hospitals or even zoos to acquire a/v and as in all things in life, there are exceptions to the rule. These people have extensive networks, have contributed greatly to the hobby/profession, and keep venomous herps for the right reasons....and perhaps in these cases, there are exceptions. I know of quite a few and have no problems with the arrangements and protocols that they have in place.

There's been a lot of hissy pissy fits on here recently, haven't seen a good post on husbandry in quite some time but these are important issues that need to be discussed in an intelligent manner - and there are going to be disagreements and differences in philosophies. By finding a forum to discuss these things, such as what Al is recommending, I think we can make great strides towards developing a common voice in the venomous community.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center

>>Al, while I do understand the wake up call, and did a few years ago, there are very few IF ANY that keep their own AV for EVERY species they keep. I think that is going abit far. But I do believe that EVERYONE should have access to AV, and not a zoo's stock, whether it be by an AV bank or a person with common interest, in the event of a bite. I am all for any type of actions that will lead to better, safer keeping of these animals, and am still for the developement of any AV banks and protocol's. What could be better than a tightly knit, organized community? Nothing. Which is what we need to be, even if the flight by nighter's want no part in it, we can still do it the responsible way until the new fad goes away. It will go away, and it will only be us with our passion's. If there isn't an all out ban first. You have my e-mail addy, LET ME KNOW WHAT I CAN DO TO HELP.
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

"very few venomous keepers keep A/V so that must mean that it's acceptable"

I never said it was acceptable logic, go back and re-read my post. You seem to interpret what you want. I said very few IF ANY keep AV to EVERY species THEY keep. And it's more than the truth. There are plenty of people that rant and rave about keeping AV, yet MANY of the people ranting and raving don't keep AV themselves. This I know for a fact. You say what good is an AV bank going to do when you have only 30 minutes? Well, it seems to do pretty well in Florida.

"very few venomous keepers keep A/V so that must mean that it's acceptable"

And just to add on to that. There are quite a few keepers that keep species that have NO AV (even you, I believe), how can that be justified? Is the fact that there is no AV acceptable logic? I don't have any problems with it, but how can one make comments about the majority of the keepers out there that don't keep AV, when in reality, they are being quite hypocrital themselves? There is no difference. That seems to be one of the problems, there are people that p!ss and moan, but don't practice what they preach. I don't have my own AV, but have access to it. Will it help? With the species I keep, yes. I won't keep anything I deam too dangerous to keep in the event of a bite, ie. mambas, cobras, taipans, bitis. EVEN WITH MY OWN AV. The doctor's in my area, I don't feel, could handle a case like that, even with my protocol's, and I won't take the chance. There are people that don't keep their own stocks of CroFab, but do keep high neuro population canebrakes. The same kind that killed two people last year, and one in 45 minutes. Do you think AV would have helped even though he wasn't able to get to a phone in time? I can't seem to understand the logic, except some people think that people that don't keep AV for every species is ruining the hobby. THERE IS NO PRIVATE KEEPER WITH A LARGE COLLECTION THAT KEEPS THEIR OWN STOCK FOR EVERY SPECIES THAT THEY KEEP. Do they have access? I'm sure quite a few do, but since there are AV's that are difficult to acquire, and snakes that don't have any known AV, there is no way of getting around it. People can call the kettle black all they want, it's not going to change anything. It's not about having your own stock of AV, that's just a way for the hypocrites to try to seperate themselves from the people they feel they are better than, when in reality, they really aren't any different. And I do understand your frustration when there is a bite and they need YOUR supply. But with more AV banks, you wouldn't be the first to call.

That's a key point you made.....zoos and facilities like mine shouldn't be responsible for saving irresponsible keeper's of venomous herps who don't take the proper precautions. If a keeper has made the appropriate arrangements with a nearby zoo, facility, hospital, antivenin bank, etc. to have ready access to antivenin that is better than not taking any action. So, if that response makes you feel a bit more at ease with my position, I hope that clarifies things a bit.

>>"very few venomous keepers keep A/V so that must mean that it's acceptable"
>>
>>And just to add on to that. There are quite a few keepers that keep species that have NO AV (even you, I believe), how can that be justified? Is the fact that there is no AV acceptable logic? I don't have any problems with it, but how can one make comments about the majority of the keepers out there that don't keep AV, when in reality, they are being quite hypocrital themselves? There is no difference. That seems to be one of the problems, there are people that p!ss and moan, but don't practice what they preach. I don't have my own AV, but have access to it. Will it help? With the species I keep, yes. I won't keep anything I deam too dangerous to keep in the event of a bite, ie. mambas, cobras, taipans, bitis. EVEN WITH MY OWN AV. The doctor's in my area, I don't feel, could handle a case like that, even with my protocol's, and I won't take the chance. There are people that don't keep their own stocks of CroFab, but do keep high neuro population canebrakes. The same kind that killed two people last year, and one in 45 minutes. Do you think AV would have helped even though he wasn't able to get to a phone in time? I can't seem to understand the logic, except some people think that people that don't keep AV for every species is ruining the hobby. THERE IS NO PRIVATE KEEPER WITH A LARGE COLLECTION THAT KEEPS THEIR OWN STOCK FOR EVERY SPECIES THAT THEY KEEP. Do they have access? I'm sure quite a few do, but since there are AV's that are difficult to acquire, and snakes that don't have any known AV, there is no way of getting around it. People can call the kettle black all they want, it's not going to change anything. It's not about having your own stock of AV, that's just a way for the hypocrites to try to seperate themselves from the people they feel they are better than, when in reality, they really aren't any different. And I do understand your frustration when there is a bite and they need YOUR supply. But with more AV banks, you wouldn't be the first to call.
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

"That's a key point you made.....zoos and facilities like mine shouldn't be responsible for saving irresponsible keeper's of venomous herps who don't take the proper precautions. If a keeper has made the appropriate arrangements with a nearby zoo, facility, hospital, antivenin bank, etc. to have ready access to antivenin that is better than not taking any action."

Yes, that is exactly the point I was trying to make and I don't feel that your resources should be used up because someone didn't take the proper precautions.

I agree, however, at my zoo, we have furnished AV for the private sector on a "as needed basis", and I certainly don't have a problem with that.

One was a deer hunter who was bitten by a large Canebrake a few years ago, and the local hospital didn't have enough Wyeth, and we covered the rest.
Another bite was by a fool hardy person who was trying to "hand shed" a small Rhino Viper and was bitten on the thumb.

We of course supplied AV for that. I also was careful not to delete the zoo's stock, in case someone at the zoo got bitten!

However, I, or my zoo doesn't have a problem giving AV to an individual (private hobbyist), when needed to save a life. That isn't the time to reprimand a "private hobbyist" for not stocking their own AV when someones life hangs in the balance.

Randal

Texasreptiles, you just made some very good points. Rob, just curious, do you stock A/V for all the species you keep? I see you maintain Atheris nitschei, what A/V would you use in the case of an envenomation from that species? Echis monovalent has had some success in treating A. squamiger and A. chlorechis, but that is a gamble to assume it works on nitschei.

Randal does indeed make good points and I have responded personally to him so no need to go any deeper. We do stock antivenin, however, since we are also a rescue facility (working closely with local, state and federal agencies) there are times when we have to remove an animal from a home where we do not have the A/V for that specific species. In those cases, we make immediate arrangements to find out who has it until our supplies arrive. You are absolutely right about Atheris nitschei, as I wrote in the now published IHS Proceedings of Reptile Husbandry and Propogation book, there is no AV for them. Echis antiserum has been reputed to have some affect but no clinical trials to support it. We do have a protocol in place but when you are talking about species that doesn't have any commercial products available, it becomes a bit of a guessing game in the event of an envenomation.

>>Texasreptiles, you just made some very good points. Rob, just curious, do you stock A/V for all the species you keep? I see you maintain Atheris nitschei, what A/V would you use in the case of an envenomation from that species? Echis monovalent has had some success in treating A. squamiger and A. chlorechis, but that is a gamble to assume it works on nitschei.
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

I would agree that Echis is the best A/V (There are 3 different manufacturers) to use in the case of any Atheris envenomation. Again, no hard clinical data available and no in vitro tests either. It is not to diffficult to use an ELISA type test to see what activity any A/V would have against venom of a specific species. A/V manufacturers use it to quantify the number of units of Mouse LD50's their A/V can neutralize. The only problem is $$ to have a lab run the tests in addition to having some pooled venom and different A/V If I still worked in a lab this would be easy, as we did those tests all the time.

Sometimes the best guess is all you have to go on, like for instance the Zoo's that keep the Mangshan Pit Viper. They guess that Taiwan "Pit Viper" A/V will do the trick but don't really know for sure.

Al
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Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

I think what Rombeata was trying to get at was that saying that the only responsible way to keep venomous snakes is to have A/V handy, then keeping species for which there is no A/V available, seems a bit hypocritical. I'm not here to pass judgment in any way, I just think his point is being overlooked.
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Chance Duncan
www.rivervalleyexotics.com

That's exactly what my earlier post meant.

The reason it sounds hypocritical is because it is.
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Jason

The hell it is!! If you have acsess to AV period then you have acsess to potential AV treatment in the case of most non covered species. Most you can do is make a very educated guess as to what if any AV covers that species. For Atheris we all know about echis AV and the reports. For others its not so clear cut but if you had lets say Tree Cobras then there is a slight chance African Polyvalent would help cover a bite.

Also keep in mind that most species who do not have a known antivenom are considered species of little medicle concern. Somtimes this is because the species in question is far removed from human population centers. Other times its because the species is considered of little medicle value and their just are not avaible funds to come up with an AV for somthing like Aspidelaps, which isnt considered a death sentance if your bitten.

Seriously, all of you know that not having an AV to cover your snakes is irresponsible. Dont try to throw the Aspidelaps
/Atheris card into people's faces to justify your lack of preperation!! You cant keep these species and have AV specific for them but if you have AV for other species, you have the documentation to import AV and you can actualy do the guess work. If you dont have the permits or a source to obtain AV at all then your SOL and irresponsible.

"For Atheris we all know about echis AV and the reports."

We do? And from what reports? The ones that say that there MAY be
some cross reactivity with A. squamiger and A. chlorechis in SOME cases? That's not an educated guess, that's taking a chance. Kinda like the doctor who thought he was making an educated guess by giving CroFab to the man in Ohio who was bitten by the rhino viper, who later died. Maybe the bites from the atheris weren't that serious and they didn't need AV in the first place. And maybe they were lucky enough not to have any side effects from the echis AV itself, which might have done nothing at all. There is NO real proof that echis AV neutralizes the venom from atheris. If there was, it would be used on a routine (albeit infrequent) basis for bites, and not on an it MAY work basis. If I'm wrong, please show some clinical proof from some serious envenomation reports, not something that is being passed around because a few doctors or a fireman says it works.

Im talking about the belief that it may cover. I didnt say it was written in stone and of cource there are varibles to consider. There are also obvious varibles to consider when talking about a copperhead bite! Its still better to have somthing which may help then nothing at all.

BTW, nice job danceing around the main bulk of my comment. No matter how you try to coat it the fact remains that if you dont have AV, or know a reliable source with AV then you are being irresponsible. Period.

"BTW, nice job danceing around the main bulk of my comment. No matter how you try to coat it the fact remains that if you dont have AV, or know a reliable source with AV then you are being irresponsible. Period"

Ahh, but if you had read one of my earlier posts you have read that I don't have my own supply, but DO have a reliable source.
I wouldn't consider keeping any snakes if I didn't have a plan of action, or access to AV. My old doctor didn't know enough about snakebites to sponsor me for AV, so I had to find other means. I haven't had the chance to talk with my new physician about sponsoring me.

So your saying keeping venomous reptiles without av or access to av is irresponsible correct? Well, didn't you at one time have a large collection of venomous reptiles including aspidelaps, atheris, and naja pallida as you stated on SHHS? Did YOU keep AV or have access to it? Just wondering, as hypocrisy seems to be the theme on this forum. cheers!

"So your saying keeping venomous reptiles without av or access to av is irresponsible correct? Well, didn't you at one time have a large collection of venomous reptiles including aspidelaps, atheris, and naja pallida as you stated on SHHS? Did YOU keep AV or have access to it? Just wondering, as hypocrisy seems to be the theme on this forum. cheers!"

Never once did I say you shouldnt keep species that dont have any AV. Please re read my post.

As for my previous collection, yes, I kept Aspidelaps, Atheris, Boiga, Naja etc and yes! I had acsess to AV for the species I kept!! No I didnt have it on hand but I never said you need it on hand. I said you need acsess to it which I did, even toi echis AV in case of a squam bite.

No Crofab was given to the man that died from the rhino viper bite. He got South African antivenin but because there was a delay due to him not having his own antivenin he had organ damage that lead to his death. He recieved his first dose with in 1 hour of getting to the hospital. The doctors and hospital followed all the guidelines for treating an envenomation.

Jim Harrison

Then we are in agreement. I apologize if it seemed I was calling you out as somone who didnt have a proper protocal. That wasnt my intent.

For a dictionary refferal your right, it is hypicriticle to say you need AV and keep species that dont have any but its a hypocracy that should be over looked in the case of this argument. Either that or no one should keep Aspidelaps, Atheris, Pesudohaje etc. Obviously that wont ever happen nor should it but having proper AVC for the ones that can have a treatment and have the ability to obtain more that may treat a bite (i.e Echis AV) is more responsible then not haveing a source at all and then saying "you keep Atheris, Your a hyocrite!".

Please note "Jim's" post below, he is correct. You are thinking of the woman bitten by the Urutu (B. alternatus) who was given Crofab and died.

Al
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Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

Hey, AL. Someone that was there said that the fireman was given CroFab before the African AV arrived. He could have been misinformed.
Got your e-mail, it's a nice gesture for the troops. I'm going to pass it around.
-Tom

The ZAOA is about the closest thing I can see that would fit what you are looking for. http://www.zaoa.org/about.htm

You have probably heard of them before, and the president is the curator of the San Diego Zoo I believe (Larry Killmar, Ph.D., Chairman San Diego Zoo???). They are working towards an exemption much like the AZA has with state legislation, except that they are more open for private individuals and their facilities as where the AZA is certainly not. It is the AZA's belief that private owners and their facilities should not be allowed ownership of MOST exotics, not just hots. My boss just recently got back from their convention in California a couple weeks ago.

The venomous community in order to hold some clout will need to build some credibility and show some responsibility measures being taken. The problem is the time frame that will be necessary in order to make it shine bright enough to be seen by legislators and proven legitimate and workable.

We must face facts, the likelihood of ANY private owner being able to stock their own antivenin is very slim. Therefore, we would need to do as was suggested in the previous posting that we need to get antivenin banks formed and functional in each region or location where venomous snakes are legal to be kept, whether with/without legislation. In many states, as here in Ohio, hospitals cannot use YOUR antivenin if they already have what THEY consider will work. The reason is due to insurance liability. They usually dont always carry the best possible antivenin as well as dont always carry the type of antivenin for a specific species. However, I have spoken with several doctors at different hospitals (Mount Carmel, OSU, and a couple others) around Columbus(which venomous owenership is ILLEGAL by the way), which state that if an owner calls them and informs them that they need a specific type of antivenin for a specific animal, the hospital WILL stock it. The hospital once the antivenin is expired, can be returned for credit therefore they can do so without penalty to the hospital.

Next, we need to start working on these breeders who are out selling anything to anyone at any time for the right price. That is our biggest killer. These animals are entirely too easy to obtain. Unfortunately, the hobby is working against itself and there isn't enough people to turn it around. Money always speaks louder than vocals and that is where we are going to get screwed the most.

Unfortunately, the most possible way of being able to get this situation under a slight amount of control is to have some sort of FAIR legislation. This legislation would need to control caging requirements, permits, etc. However, most people fight against ANY legislation because their concern is that once you let the government in, you can't get them the hell out. Unfortunately, it will be a risk that would need to be taken.
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My Website
www.herpfanatic.com

Sorry your information from your doctors is wrong. Exotic antivenin is not something that a hospital can or will stock for a private individuals usage. Also you can not return antivenin for credit if it is not used.
It is up to the individual to stock their own antivenin or have a bank with in one hour drive. Time is organ damage(tissue)

Jim Harrison

Jim,

While I am not trying to be argumentative with you, I can't see why 3 different doctors (each from different hospitals) would tell me something that weren't true. Furthermore, my understanding is that (at least from the individual that I spoke with at OSU medical) that when you requested their list of stocked antivenin, they refused to provide it to you.

Personally, I would prefer to take the word of the doctors within my state over the word of an individual who is biased on this topic. If you can provide me with another source (within my state and other than your brother) who can vouch for your statements, then I might be willing to listen.

Chris

>>Sorry your information from your doctors is wrong. Exotic antivenin is not something that a hospital can or will stock for a private individuals usage. Also you can not return antivenin for credit if it is not used.
>>It is up to the individual to stock their own antivenin or have a bank with in one hour drive. Time is organ damage(tissue)
>>
>>Jim Harrison
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My Website
www.herpfanatic.com

Chris,
Ask the FDA. The regulations for investigational drugs require that expired antivenoms (which are considered investigational because they are not FDA approved) be destroyed.
Alternately, why not contact any foreign supplier of antivenom and ask if you can return expired products to them for credit? Sorry, but they will laugh and probably not even bother to reply to you.
I don't know who the other two doctors are that you spoke to. Maybe regional hospitals would be willing to get exotic antivenoms for potential patients- if so, why don't any hospitals have it now? That seems like the simplest thing in the world- go to your local hospital, tell them what you keep and what antivenoms you need, and voila! The antivenom will be there for you! That would be great, and if that is now possible I think everyone on this forum should do it immediately! But I doubt it will work that way.
The OSU person we did talk to. It was a strange conversation to say the least. I did not ask for the list of antivenoms that they had, (why would I when we have what we need?) but I did ask for her to provide info on where she could buy it in the US. Suprise, suprise, no info ever came forth. I told her that maybe I was wrong and just didn't know where to get it, and she could never name a company or provider here in the US. We are a legitimate facility- if she's really got some new info why would she not want to tell us or other zoos about it?
As an importer of antivenom for over 30 years, we have made every effort to stay current on what the new developments are. That doesn't mean we know everything, but the last exotic bite treated at OSU used our antivenom.
Jim Harrison and Kristen Wiley
Kentucky Reptile Zoo

I think something should be written up and taken to politicians. If we come to them with a plan before it is an issue, it can protect the future.

I would be in favor of:

-Federal legislation requiring a federal permit for keeping venomous snakes
-This permit is required for ALL keepers and laws at state and local (town, county, etc) laws would of course need to still be followed
-This permit would NOT exempt those grandfathered in NOR would it allow for those already keeping venomous snakes to automatically obtain the permit
-This permit WOULD be funded heavily by application and renewal fees
-This permit would require a bi-annual checking of the facility containing the snakes, which could be done by any law enforcement officer. This would be a simple checklist system and would not be ideal to be checked by someone who is not highly qualified in the field...but the checklist would make it cheaper to manage and would still keep people up to date on their protocols
-This permit WOULD require all applicants to have applications signed by a certified professional in the field (zoo, nature center, museum, liscensed exhibitor, whatever/who ever as long as they undergo a certification required for this part of the permit). This would also allow each of these facilities or individuals to place their own policies for obtaining a signature.
-This permit would require local hospitals be given an updated list of species kept and what the treatment is for each species, signed by a professional in the herpetological field (PhD?) AND medical field (md). (someone else can insert how AV would best be handled)

Among the checklist would be...

Just some quick thoughts

I really don't think that adding another layer to the Federal Bureaucracy is the answer. Laws concerning animals are, and should be done on a state level. I am not in favor of it being done at a level below state because moving within the state gets to be a royal pain. When the state has a law concerning venomous herps, & so does a little town, the state's laws are the ones that need to be followed anyway.

~~Greg~~

The other problem/challenge is that even if its a federal issue, state law will take precedence. And, taking it one step further, county, city, village ordinances will take precedence over state statutes. You can live in a state like Illinois, for example, that recognizes that any constrictor over 14' (according to the latest court case) is legal to keep, however, there are many towns that adopt the "dangerous animals act" that says any constrictor over 6' is life threatening and therefore illegal to keep (even though this DAA is administered by the Dept of Ag who only has jurisdiction over pet stores and entities as such). It becomes a real mess. In an ideal world, there would be NO regulations, just good 'ol common sense. But pragmatically, it becomes a much more difficult issue in today's over beaurocratized society (and I don't even think that's a real word). Perhaps something in between is the best answer and I still find myself looking at the sport of falconry as a nice mix of red tape, common sense, and providing a vehicle to allow people to enjoy their hobby/passions.

>>I really don't think that adding another layer to the Federal Bureaucracy is the answer. Laws concerning animals are, and should be done on a state level. I am not in favor of it being done at a level below state because moving within the state gets to be a royal pain. When the state has a law concerning venomous herps, & so does a little town, the state's laws are the ones that need to be followed anyway.
>>
>> ~~Greg~~
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Same thing. State Law allowed for keeping venomous under permit. Albany Co. Health Dept. has a more stringent regulation and we have to obtain separate permits from them to do education displays at a NYS DEC nature center!

This is also the reason that DELTA does not ship venomous snakes out of Albany County.

MH

hmmm, I thought Federal Law overrides State Law. And State Law overrides city and county law?
If that was not the case, then everybody could own, transport Appx.I animals and there would be no ESA.
Right?

You basically need to follow the stricter of the two. If a federal law says that all venomous snakes are illegal...the state cannot say they are legal with a permit. That is why the federal courts don't usually spend their time with these matters...and it would be wishfull thinking to even think a permit system could be implemented there. But I could easily see if the problem got to the point where there needed to be federal regulations (bans) for the point of public safety...that might happen. But probably not...not when we have really important things like gay marriage to think about.

Mine line of thinking was that if there already was a strict system at the federal level...it would reduce the need for state regulation with bans (of course in state which do not have a ban already...precidence). But it seems people do not agree.

Federal law does override State law, but, City and County Laws override state laws. It's the city and county ordinances that they have that will nix anything the state says.

ahh, that makes sense

You're correct to a point Randal. It depends how the law is written. In NY, the DEC acknowledges Federal Law when it comes to regulating non-native animals under the E.S.A. (e.g.crocodilians) and basically if the Feds say its protected (i.e., all pure croc species covered by the E.S.A.) then they consider it an Endangered Species and it requires a state endangered species permit here (even though crocs aren't native..obviously). However, even IF the crocodile is a hybrid and exempt under the Federal E.S.A, NY state law still considers it a crocodilian and it requires a NY endangered species permit. NY laws don't recognize hybrids or subspecies, so if its either a hybrid species, or even a subspecies not native to the state( e.g., C. h. atricaudatus) it requires an endangered species permit in NY.

The NY laws are written to specifically state that local municipalities may enact more stringent regs if they chose to do so.

Since nobody asked, here are my observations and opinion:
The venomous culture has standards that are rigorously defended or opposed. Selling hots in a deli cup to a kid is not good. Yet we have not seen the expected disasters in alarming numbers. Selling venomoids is very bad because of blah, blah, blah. Keeping dangerous snakes in an aquarium is not appropriate for security reasons.
What about the "respected" breeders and forum members. Go over to the classified and see all the pairs, 1.1's, and trios many are selling. The sales pitch seems to be that if a person is not buying a potential breeding scenario, they are not a serious hobbyist (this is a hobbyist forum right?). Maybe the time is now to start eliminating the sex ratio obsession. Start jumping on people selling breeding as a mandate. We have enough cheap snakes already.

Al, Greg, and whomever else is in Fl. what happened at the meeting regarding the VRL changes, were any enacted? I did not recieve any method of contacting them to chip in as I have my Fl. VRL and wish to maintain it for the time when I move back.

Here in CA. the laws are somewhat fair, though the level of regulation goes down to the city level. We cannot have any non-native venomous save for Heloderma horridum (oddly enough, we have to go through serious permitting >$300 per annum for suspectum, dont ask, I dont know why). All native venomous are legal and in point of fact, there is no permit needed to collect rattlesnakes, though I think there is a bag limit of two for each sp.

anyways, check out this in situ of a gravid tigris from AZ, boy was she pretty.

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Cheers
Lateralis
"I would rather be precisely wrong than approximately right"
Marion "Doc" Ford

It's late so my thoughts are few, but I"m thinking that to have clout, and staying power from the view of the government and the public, a proper association needs to be set up. Call it the national hot keepers association or whatever. Now, a proper assocation, like the american veterinary medical association or the like, has regulations, guidelines, standards, an ethics commitee, and of equal importance, a disciplinary commitee (or chairperson).

A person, by acheiving the requirements and being a member of such an association, evermore sets them apart from an unregulated soup bowl of haphazard keepers.

Ian

There already is an Association started by Andrew Wyatt called NCARK - North Carolina Association of Reptile Keepers. He has started in North Carolina/South Carolina, But is looking to get more people involved to set up camp in their states as well. It seems that so far either most people don't know about NCARK, or just don't care about it. Check out the website at www.ncark.org Feel free to contact Andrew. He can tell you first hand what he is doing and what he has already done.

Just a though !

SAL RICCO
WNCHerps