Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Greetings. I am new to this forum although when time permits i sometimes visit other forums as my herp interests are many. I reviewed some of the past entries and found this forum to be herper friendly with the exception of our herper brothers and sisters who have a closed mind and feel a need to vent (no pun intended) their opinions. I was impressed with guys like FRoberts and horridus who give friendly sound advise based on their experience without having an over inflated ego like some of the old timers on other forums.

My question may have already been answered but i did not see it addressed so.....

Has anyone bred 2 sp/ssp who undergo a color morph as they mature? (ie.- L.t. gaigeae and Spalerosophis apriceps). If so, do the hybrids also undergo a color morph and if you breed 2 sp/ssp that are totally different in color(as adults, like in the above example), could you expect the offspring to be mixed in their adult color(some resembling L.t. gaigeae and some resembling S. apriceps). IF anyone has done work with these or similiar species I would be interested in what to expect.

Also in reference to one of the threads below, I would like to take this opportunity to thank gabonica2977 for signing his name to his post. Very thoughtful of you.

cheers, Don

I have never seen work done with these snakes, I would imagine since these color changes are genetic it is highly likely the neonates as they mature will change color. with certain breedings I have seen with colors and patterns that are very different ( IE retics burms ) The F1 are very different in appearance from the parent species but if they are bred back to one of the parent forms used. for example a 3/4 retic 1/4 burms more closely resemble retics and vise versa but a ball/borneo to a ball/borneo creates a snake very different to the F1 hybrid. Things to consider when hybridizing colubrids besides color and pattern are skeletal systematic's and forms of feeding strategies for example is Spalerosophis atriceps a constricting type of snake? I ask because if you bred a N. Black racer to a black rat snake and got viable offspring the babies may be deformed due to the major difference in skeletal and musculature in these snakes. I believe most colubrids can be hybridized according to these systems, I don't think racers and rat snakes would make viable or more like (survivable offspring) because of this difference in their internal makeup which in my opinion would cause lethal anomalies when mixed. I do believe that a snake that changes colors as it matures will have an impact on the adult coloration of the adult hybrid, most F1 hybrids in my experiences have a major color and pattern difference if the adults look very different from one another, but if similar (IE burm/rock) the neonates look similar to one or the other of the adults, this being due to the fact they (the parents) where already similar in appearance. If you use the example of the intergrade of the yellow and black rat snake, you get a "greenish looking adult rat snake" that undergoes changes from neonate to an adult just like a reg yellow or black rat snake changes colors. So this also makes me believe color changes would occur in the growing hybrid.
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Frank Roberts

FRoberts, thanks for the reply. I am hoping someone will respond that has actually worked these or similiar sp. out several generations, if not to F2 or F3, at least to the point that their F1's have reached adulthood.

I agree with your logic but until it is done we can only hypothisise. Actually with hybrids I should say assume (if your familiar with the old saying LOL) because that's usually what they do to us. Then again that is where all the fun is in it. Right?

I am not new to hybrids and was doing it before it was considered "acceptable". Even before reptiles I bred hookbills and dabbled in hybrid macaws (back in the 70's).

Anyway, I started working with some calico retics and it got me thinking about these type of morphs. I especially like S. apriceps but unfortunately they are a bit difficult to locate. I recently got an 06 male in so it will be a while before i can get any results. At least I can take my time to decide on what species to breed him with. I was also thinking of breeding him with a few corn morphs and perhaps one of my F2 jungle corns.

Any additional info would be appreciated.

thanks, Don

That's your retic ... I've only seen one picture of it - you have to post more!

blue mike, well, it was for a short time. It is no longer as I sold it to a zoo. I have a lot of pics of it and would be glad to post some more if others do not mind. I just had that one available already and threw it on my reply but it does not really apply to this forum as it is not a hybrid. I liked the pic because of the refraction of the eye. After i took that pic i must have taken 100 more just like it in an attempt to get e reflection of me taking the picture in the retics eye but i never could get the right light/angle to duplicate the same effect, let alone my reflection.

I am kicking myself for selling the snake. I do a lot of boids but at that time i did not want to breed retics or burms because of space. I did have a tiger at that time (actually still have it) and since then actually got into a very nice albino and a tiger het albino that i took in trade so looks like i may dabble in breeding retics after all. That calico would have been a nice addition. oh well, stupid is as stupid does.

I will post some more pics of her as soon as i get time to downsize them.

Welcome, glad to have another thinking mind here...

The only example I can think of right now are the obsoleta ssp. crosses, the ontogenetic melanism exhibited by Black Rats does not seem to be "dominant" in the crosses with guttata. It does appear to influence the adult coloration however as the animals I have seen are certainly darker than other guttata crosses, particularly the quadrivittata x guttata. I think the genetic "triggers" that cause the change to black are still there but to a lesser degree than in the parent species. Meaning if you crossed a Black milk with a corn instead of the Honduran you would get a substantially darker adult hybrid but not a solid glossy black snake...All just a guess till someone takes the time to do it.

I would love to see any Spalerosophis sp. crosses as it would be interesting to see if the resulting hybrids used the distinctive defensive behaviors (flattening of the head, tongue waving, and that incredible hissing) in addition to the drastic coloration changes. Great question & good luck. One very sucessful hybrid guy here in GA had a pair of beautiful orange & black "atriceps" in his collection, I would think he tried to breed them with the other projects he had at the time, but I don't remember seeing any offspring other than pure ones he produced.

Very beautiful retic BTW.

Horridus

Thanks for the warm welcome and information. If you think of it next time you talk to the breeder there in GA you might ask him about his Spalerosophis. Unless I luck into finding some adults, my "project" is a ways into the future so I would love to see anything done with them to help me decide which way to try to take it.

Thanks, Don

In the case of the Gonyosoma hybrids that I mentioned in the thread above, the all-black G. janseni from Seleyar are born green and turn glossy black in the first few years of their life. The other parent, the green G. oxycephala are pretty much born with adult coloration.

Here is a picture of a G. janseni from Seleyar. This specimen is now all black and near adulthood. See my post "yes" above to see what the adults look like.

The hybrids between these species are born green and now as they near adulthood they have turned green with heavy black speckling, not unlike some of the pure G. oxycephala that have a lot of black speckling. I'll contact the breeder and see if he minds me posting a picture of one of the subadult hybrids.

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Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Jave local (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

1.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Celebes locale (Black & Tan)

these are a cross between Gonyosona oxycephala (redtail green ratsnake), and Gonyosoma janseni (black Salayar). As you can see they are hatched green, and in approx 6mo begin to radiate black from the insides of the scales. They retain this speckled look as adults.

Here's a few pics of the black jansen color change

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1200153,1200712

and the janseni color change

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1200153,1200702

That's impressive, thanks for the photos & information. The adults are spectacular. What's the largest janseni you guys have seen? I have seen a couple of Oxys that had to be 7' and as big around as a coke can. They are as memorable as any large arboreal snake, especially if they start throat puffing and showing off the yellow & blue interstitial skin. I used to have a silver example with bright yellow splotches on the head (will see if I can dig up a photo) back then they were referred to as "Javan Red Tails" are these still around? They were fairly common back when I had my group. Does anyone know how the hatchlings appear when a green animal is crossed with one of those silver guys?

Horridus

What's the largest janseni you guys have seen?

I had a monster female Sulawesi Janseni, the black & tan type. She was well over 7' and just absolutely massive. I'm not as interested in this form as C&F so I have not imported many.

Does anyone know how the hatchlings appear when a green animal is crossed with one of those silver guys?

Short answer is the babies are either green or some sort of gray/silver/yellow/orange combo.

These traits appear to be polymorphic. For years it was known that gravid green imports could and would produce clutches that had both green and "silver" babies. Recently in the UK somebody imported a gravid silver female and her clutch produced both silver and green babies.

In both examples there were no sign of "blending" of traits. The babies were either green or one of the many variable forms of the gray/silver/yellow specimens.

However, this may be an example of multiple paternity within a single clutch. As C&F, myself and others get better groups established it will be interesting to see what happens when only one male is used per mating and what shows up color wise in the clutches.

Here are some of the "Javan" redtails I have had over the years. It's important to note that almost all G. oxycehphala are from Java, even the green ones. Both green and silver specimens are caught in the same areas in Java and it's obvious they breed together.

This is what I consider "typical".

Yes, this one was really this orange, although she dulled down to a typical silver after a while. She may have been getting a lot of carotene from a diet of nestling birds in the wild.

If there is any blending of green and silver traits, this is what I suspect is an example.

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Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Jave local (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

1.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Celebes locale (Black & Tan)

Thanks Chris, good stuff. Here's the pair I was talking about and a shot of the silver one's head, very similar to the one you posted. I remember when they first came in you had to pay a premium for the silver ones because of thier "rarity"
You'll have to excuse the beginner setup, this was way back in the day!

I've only had one that looked like that. Almost blue. I do prefer the green specimens although I am glad they can interbreed without diluting the green. Well at least apparently.
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Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Jave local (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

1.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Celebes locale (Black & Tan)