Reptile & Amphibian Forums

the first pic is an 06 hornii that has a physical defect. It does not show clearly in the picture but it has a lump on its spine (it was born that way and not an injury). This spinal defect has caused him to have no use of his hind legs. I had problems getting him to eat for the first month and had to "assist" feed him (not force feed but open his mouth and place a pink inside and then hold him, sometimes for 30 minutes or more, until his feeding response kicked in). Although he was and still is underweight (second picture is one of his siblings for comparision), he is now all hornii. His appetite is every bit as good or better than his siblings and he is gaining weight fast. I have even been able to place him with other hornii his size and he has no problem getting his fair share of food (although he has to sort of "swim" to get it.

My hope is to use him for shows that I do from time to time for physically challenged children. I figure I can construct an axle to strap to the base of his tail. I have seen this done with canines before but never a monitor. Anyone with any ideas on how to construct such a device, your input would be appreciated.

Could you take apart a child's toy car/truck and use the axle from it? You could get some sort of fleece material and use it for padding underneath and use velcro to make straps to hold it on. Just a thought. Good luck.

Pam
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1.1 varanus acanthurus brachyurus (Dorado & Dora)
1.1 u. macfadyeni (Amani & Abeba)
1.2 u. ornata (Husani, Zari, & Bintu)
1.1 u. maliensis (Njuru & Neo) Doug Dix
0.0.1 geochelone carbonaria (Rojo)
0.1 pogona vitticeps (Sunni)
1.1 hyla chrysoscelis (Pudge & Squirt)
Herps Are Awesome!

velcro - thats the ticket. I think i can find the wheel assembly but will have to play with it to get the correct height and spacing but I had not thought about using velcro. I think that would work great because I can adjust as he grows and it is easy on/easy off. Thanks very much for the suggestion. I will let you know how it works.

Oh yea, here I go again, causing trouble and wreckage where ever I go.

Nydon, I have to ask what your experience level is. From your pictures your trying to portray you have experience with monitors. From your words, you insinuate you breed/bred bluetrees. As in, including that one in your bloodline. A bloodline is only a bloodline after they produce generations, you know, bloodline, you know a line of genetic similiarity.

So I assume you have done such, even if I have not heard of such a thing.

All the above is to place these comments in context. You act like your very experienced, yet your thinking about putting wheels on a monitor???? As someone with experience, this confuses me greatly.

Argus monitors are not only know for standing up on their backlegs. But are also known for being the ultimate burrower. If this individual survives, it will ALWAYS try to borrow or squeeze tightly into any hole it can find. Therefore, WHEELS are not a good idea.

Normally with such malidies as this argus has, two things will occur, it gets worse or it gets better. But rarely or ever will it stay the same.

My recomendation is, find out whats REALLY the problem, if your interested enough to make wheels, then you should be interested enough to take it to the vet and have it examined and x-rayed. Then seek the proper care.

Maybe I am just jealous, as I did not think of putting wheels on a monitor(a monitor is sorta a snake with legs). So all in all, I would rethink the wheel deal. Cheers

FR, "hello and welcome to the forum" or perhaps "nice pics" or "nice shot but it seems a bit out of focus, what kind of camera do you use?" These are the kinds of replies to my postings that I would expect from a person who desires to use this forum in a manner for which it is intended, A free exchange of ideas, to learn husbandry techniques from others with more experience and to interact with others who share a common interest.

Instead you did not reply to any of my postings until you saw an opportunity to respond in your usual condacending, arrigant style. "holy moly" is right! You see I am not new to this forum, I simply have not posted for a long time because i was tired of your bigotry.

*A bigot is a prejudiced person who is intolerant of opinions, lifestyles or identities differing from their own.*

Yes, I did check in from time to time to see if you were still up on your soapbox preaching the book of monitors according to FR. But I never got involved even though I hated the way you pounded new guys asking sincere questions (at least in their eyes). Now that my work load is light as all of my colubrids have been layed down for the winter and most of my boas have already bred, I figured I would simply come on and kill some free time and see if i could make some decent contacts. I had considered not responding to your entry but that would be rude. I will however, address you with the same discontent as you do me until you prove you can interacts with me in a civil manner. I will be as much an FR to you as you are to me. Period. Not negotiable.

Now to answer your questions. Yes I have experience, and lots of it. Yes I have bred Varanus species. You do not need to be a rocket scientist to do so. Although some species are obviously more difficult than others, generally speaking a rock with lips could breed monitors if they had a good work ethic and the proper resources to do so. In todays market most of us who breed as a sole source of income do not choose to do monitors on a large scale because it is not cost effective. It is simply a case of economics. Especially when immoral dealers sell imports as cb for less money than it would take to feed an adult pair for a few months.

As far as breeding mcrae, I said breeding group, simply referring to their age. Had I said proven breeding group then i would have implied that i successfully bred them. As far as adding a new bloodline to my gene pool, it is exactly as i state it to be. The group I had, consisted of F2 babies that I raised to adults. They were bred by a good friend of mine (yes, it has been done, it is just that not everyone has a need to feed their ego by singing their own praise) and were all from the same clutch. Curly was a progeny of an unrelated breeding group than those I had. Therefor regardless of what you say, by adding him to my group I would be increasing my gene pool.

As far as the following statement you made:
"Maybe I am just jealous, as I did not think of putting wheels on a monitor(a monitor is sorta a snake with legs). So all in all, I would rethink the wheel deal"

A monitor is sorta a snake with legs. WOW! What does that have to do with the price of rice in China. Or for my situation for that matter. Men are from mars and women are from Venus then you must be from Pluto because dude, that went right over my head. Sorry, Not a clue.

As far as rethinking it, let me see, uhhhhhh.., No. Obviously this monitor should never be bred but that does not mean that it cannot lead a productive life by helping to bring joy to needy children. I will do so regardless of your opinion.

As you state, there is a chance he could regain the use of his legs and if that happens I will be "tickled pink". One can only hope.

As far as monitors digging and hiding, ya, ya, ya. You do not think I would be stupid enough to leave the wheels on him 24/7 do you. Oh, well maybe you do. I already stated that I now have him in an enclosure with others his same size and he "swims" to his food and is doing fine so the wheels would simply be for periods of exercize outside his cage and during seminars.

I am sure you will bisect, disect and reply to this post in your usual book format and that is fine(not that my reply hasn't entered into its 2nd chapter). I look forward to a good laugh. You will not chase me away with your FR attitude so be prepared to either act in a civil and constructive manner or I will continue with my FR replies.

I am sorry, go ahead and put wheels on your argus. Cheers

a breeding group is a group that breeds.

A rock with lips, you said is all it takes to breed monitors. You just insulted the vast majority of private keepers, zoo keepers and academics. You really insulted the academics. You didn't insult me thought.

I do agree, it takes work and common sense, and a sexual pair of monitors, not necessarily the same species.

All in all, I could tell from your posts, your were baiting, by the species and lack of explanations. Thats why I wrote the first paragraph. I really do not think the fish( me) should like or be nice to the fishermen(you) hahahahahahaha Also, did you ever think you may have been the fish, as my post surely brought you out of the water.

You should understand, I have no need to respond to Mertens pics or Lacie pics. I have tons of them(real ones) sitting right here. So I waited until something interesting came along and man oh man, an argus with wheels surely fits that bill. Please keep the forum updated on that.

Also are you taking any bets on if it will work and for how long?

How did the vet visit go? is it a deformity from inproper incubation? are there other complications? other complications are common with developmental defects. Is it a calicum problem? also common with problem incubation, this can be very curable. Injuries are also curable. Cheers

I expected nothing less from you. Sliced, diced and translated into your typical FR language. You want to keep going? Not a problem, I can be as much an FR as you can.

[a breeding group is a group that breeds.] very good. Perhaps the wording was misleading but the point of the answer was that the sex of curly was not an issue to me because I had sold the other monitors that I had originally intended to group him with for the purpose of assembling a breeding group. There is that better or will you read into that just like you read into everything.

[A rock with lips, you said is all it takes to breed monitors. You just insulted the vast majority of private keepers, zoo keepers and academics. You really insulted the academics. You didn't insult me thought.] Again you want to put the FR spin on everything. If you do not cut and paste the train of thought to try to infer my point to be something else just so you can rebutt it then you can understand my point was that anyone with a good work ethic and the resources to provide proper environment, diet, etc, can produce many of the Varanus species. I said it clearly and only someone who wants to play schoolyard bully would interpret it as anything other than that.

[I do agree, it takes work and common sense, and a sexual pair of monitors, not necessarily the same species.} Oh gee, thanks for agreeing with me but this point was cut from the above paragraph so you could try to insinuate that I cut on everyone and am some kind of bad person.

[All in all, I could tell from your posts, your were baiting, by the species and lack of explanations. Thats why I wrote the first paragraph. I really do not think the fish( me) should like or be nice to the fishermen(you) hahahahahahaha Also, did you ever think you may have been the fish, as my post surely brought you out of the water.] Ooooh, good analogy FR. If you think by me posting pictures of some of my monitors or monitors that I have photographed in the field is baiting then you are obviously paranoid. Anyway if you are going to make a point try to be a bit more clear. Am i the fish or are you? " I really do not think the fish (me) should like or be nice to the fisherman (you) hahaha " - WOW, step back and look at that statement in aa impartial way and then tell me the age of the person who wrote that.

I have to run but will complete my response shortly.

what about the wheels or the poor argus monitors legs??????

We have had enough of this huey stuff, what about the wheels and the lizards legs. Do you really think its a good idea?

Its my opinion that a varanid is NOT a suitable candidate for wheels. I think curing the monitor or having a vet put it to sleep would be a better solution.

I understand this is a complicated issue, with opinions that will support and oppose, whatever is said. So with that in mind, why does the subject of this thread not become the subject?

If your so superior and I am sure you are, you should see right pass my inferior personality and get to the subject and continue with the wheels.

Sorry for the break. I had an emergency. My monitor had a flat.

OK, see Fr i do in fact have a sense of humor. What you need to understand is that there is a difference between joking with someone you know and poking fun at a stranger you know nothing about. And in many cases you are down right insulting to complete strangers. Anyway to finish my response:

[You should understand, I have no need to respond to Mertens pics or Lacie pics. I have tons of them(real ones) sitting right here. So I waited until something interesting came along and man oh man, an argus with wheels surely fits that bill. Please keep the forum updated on that.]
Again, another Pluto statement. Woooosh, right over my head. Are you inferring that the photos I took of my monitors or of monitors in the field are somehow not real? Also for your information, argus' do not have wheels, they have legs. If you take this wheels thing for anything other than it really is then you truly are just being spiteful and very close minded. Yes, hornii do stand on their hind legs and dig but humans also stand on their legs so what about people who have lost the use of their legs. Do you somehow find humor in the use of a wheelchair. I have seen you make some pretty ridiculous statements on this forum but you have stooped pretty low on this. Perhaps you would suggest I stick him in the freezer. Maybe that would be a bit less funny to you. I cannot believe that beople on this forum continue to put up with you and many actually consider you a role model in which to emulate. Geez, don't figure.

[Also are you taking any bets on if it will work and for how long? ] Why are you offering to be my bookie?

[How did the vet visit go? is it a deformity from inproper incubation? are there other complications? other complications are common with developmental defects. Is it a calicum problem? also common with problem incubation, this can be very curable. Injuries are also curable. Cheers]

Well, finally. Why could you not have been this cordial and professional right from the beginning?

The monitors siblings show no signs of abnormalities. My vet friend took an x-ray and although he is not a herp specialist, found no abnormalities other than the kink in the spine. I gave a lecture at Seoul University and gave the film to Dr. Choi, a professor and friend there and am awaiting a response/recommendation from him. If he cannot give me anything to go on, I may go under the assumption that it is a calcium problem as I have seen many MBD cases which resulted in the loss of mobility in the hind legs as well as spinal deformities. If i cannot get any other recommendations I may treat with neocalglucon although in MBD cases the damage is usually always irreversable.

in closing , I might just add that if you are walking down the street and stop a person and ask them for the time, it is better to wait until AFTER they give you the time before you make fun of their watch. Otherwise, not only may you fail to get the time but you very well may get a smack in the head.

Oh man FR please don't read into that, I am not saying i am going to beat you up, it is just an analogy. (as you would say, hahahahahaha.

SIMPLE LIVING - HIGHER THINKING

You see the problem is, I do not know you from Adam. But you seem to know me like a book(i really doubt it)

You seem to think, I am all about you. I am not. In all truth, I do not come here for the people, I come here for the monitors. That should be very very plain, as you like to point out, I have learned to not be people friendly here, until they are friendly to me. Its a learned thing, I did not start that way.

Whether you like me or believe me or agree with me is not my problem. Sad but true.

You must also understand, I have plenty of friends, lifelong friends too. Most do not keep monitors. Most are reptile people.

You posted stuff and did not devulge who or what you are. Others attempted to get some info, but you held back. So I did what was necessary, I brought you out. And out you are.

So now that your out, get jiggy with it. Bring it to the table, and please please do not worry about me. I will not hurt you, I may not agree, or put wheels on monitors, but surely I will not hurt you. You should fully understand, whether you put wheels on a monitor or not, will not effect me in any way. Its more about having a discussion and allowing others to play/think/call names because they cannot do any of the first two. hahahahahahahahahaha I am not trying to be funny, althought I like funny, I like being entertained, I like entertaining others. None of this is all that important to me. Or my monitors either. If you could actually bring something to the table what would actually help me or my monitors, then I would have a whole new view and respect of you. Until then, you are just another of the others. (no offense, there seems like millions of you)

Its my personal opinion that if people run off because of me, its really more about them, then me. I only bring actual monitor keeping experience to the table.

You must also understand, its not my problem or job for folks to understand me. I really do not expect it. I only expect to leave a person thinking, not to agree, or believe, just think. Some people hate to think. Cheers

i just want to say, GREAT POST NYDON!!!! i wish i had the energy to doo that. Frank can just keep going on and on about nothing.

Frank, we do know you. or atleast you how you act on these forums. you're very predictable in what you're going to say.
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-Marshall
1.1.0 ball pythons
0.0.1 red ackie

what was that about? "hey Frank, take your medicine!"?

are you reading the same thread i am? Frank knows that vets have made custom wheelchairs for dogs, or put wheels on dog casts, but that doesn't make it a good idea for a reptile.

nor does it matter that we don't put humans with deformities in the freezer. they are not reptiles. and neither are dogs. these arguments have nothing to do with this one, and absolutely don't matter. get it?

if you are truly concerned about the quality of life issue, you have to give a hard look at putting animals down. keeping them "rolling" along for what actually amounts to your own amusement and imaginery genius is just cruel.

and stop anthropomorphising you guys. jeesh.

Frank puts out lots of great info. but a lot of the time he just goofs on people. i think he gets bored.

he is like Borat, and guys like nydon and mr python, apparently unwittingly, are being goofed on. he is entertaining himself (and others) at your expense. pointing out the ignorance of long held backward husbandry and reptile theory.

believe me, you are joining a very long list. nowhere near the first, nowhere near the last.

from reading the thread, i don't think you guys are even getting the point, it is flying (or rolling) right over your head. and believe me, Frank is giggling as he types.

nydon, classic example, IT ISN'T ABOUT YOU, IT IS ABOUT THE MONITOR. it isn't about Frank either. your idea of a monitor wheelchair is goofy, and if it became a reality, it would be a shame. don't let your feelings get hurt because it is a bad idea. again, it is't about you.

the idea of rolling a crippled, miserable monitor around in front of a bunch of kids seems more like a freak carnival sideshow and less like "reptile rescue".
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

n/p

i trust life if good : )
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

Life's been great! Took the summer off to spend time with the kids, now they're back at school so I have to find something to do to get out of the house before my wife kills me. Miss the monitors though, hopefully will start back up again next year.

Hope all is well with you and yours. Have a great holiday season.

I'm off to put spinners on my hamster now........

Richard

You brother could adapt that barstool to fit a monitor, hahahahahahahaha how cool would that be. Happy thankgiving to you and well actually to those that put up with you.

You #$%^ you could have come out here and brought the kids. Or are you afraid of our nice little plants. Cheers and miss you being around

Robyn, thanks for your input. Your reputation precedes you. I hear nothing but good things about you. I only have two points to your post.
First is I do not care wether we are talking reptiles or oranges, everyone should treat others with dignity and respect. Period. If you fail to do that then you should expect the same attitude to be reciprocated. I did nothing to him (not to sound childish but he started it) and I simply responded in like. If he finds this ammusing then he clearly has a sick heart and is not someone I would want my children to learn from.

Second point, you finished your letter:

the idea of rolling a crippled, miserable monitor around in front of a bunch of kids seems more like a freak carnival sideshow and less like "reptile rescue.

Perhaps you did not read all of my posts. I do not know where you got the idea that this monitor is "miserable" As a vet tech (years ago), I fully understand that there are times when an animal must, for humane reasons , be put down. I have euthanized my fair share of animals. That, however is definitely not the case here and if people would stop being closed minded and see the benefits (actually if you list pros and cons, i cannot think of one single reason why it should not be done) then why would they be so against it. If we had that mind set 30 years ago we would still be keeping monitors in fish tanks with a rock heater. You say a reptile is not a dog and i understand that but what is that statement saying that would be a reason not to do it.

Also I do not understand why you say "for my enjoyment". This has nothing to do with me being entertained. It has to do with doing something positve for an animal under my care.

Just some food for thought. Thanks again for your input.

SIMPLE LIVING - HIGHER THINKING

ah, the trap of the internet. feeling and intention is difficult to convey through typing : )

but it does seem like it is for your "enjoyment" rather than the monitors enjoyment (not a "yippee" kind of enjoyment).

monitors don't smile, or whine, or really express a lot of "emotion" so i think it is your/our responsibility to look much harder and deeper at the animal when interpreting stress/status.

a monitor is an active, digging, running, burrowing lizard. i would think that a crippled monitor would be in a constant state of stress and fear of predation. but it may be hard to see. the animal is not self aware to say "woe is me" or have self pity, so it just does what it can to survive, it has no other choice.

i have little idea of how bad your animal is actually hurt. i just think that if it is minor (in as much as having no working back legs can be minor) and you want to provide a good life, then provide a good monitor life. not as a display animal.

if the animal is suffering, stressed, or living in fear at all, then it should be put down, for its own sake.

sometimes i really miss posting in the forums : )

and if you met Frank at a show, i can guarantee you would really enjoy the hours talking to him : )
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

Robyn. Thanks for the reply.

Hopefully your not implying that any monitor out there that is stressed or living in fear should be put down. Trust me, there is no way that putting this monitor down needs to be discussed any further. It simply is not an issue. I am not a beginner and can "read" a monitor as good or better than anyone out there so we can just lay that issue (I do not know who even brought it up and why) to rest.

As far as this "feud" goes, it can end as soon as FR stops. Period. Treat me as a fellow human being and i will reciprocate. Continue to dog me out for no good reason and I will reciprocate. If you look back at all of the other problems on this forum, FR is ALWAYS in the middle of it, he is ALWAYS the instigator of it and the person he is "fueding" with ALWAYS turns belly up and apologizes to him in one way shape or form. The people on this forum have conditioned FR. You have allowed him to mistreat you for so long that he now thinks it is an acceptable behavior. The only way to stop it is with hard love.

It is very funny to me that I posted pics of the baby eating but yet NOBODY responded to them. They just continue on with this thread as if there is a purpose to it. And they still have not given one single justification (either based on experience or higher thinking) to back their argument as to why the monitor should not be given a tool that would prevent him from dragging his tail and causing injury when i take him outside for fresh air and sun.

The issue of wether to take him to shows was intelligently address by one member and I am seriously taking it under consideration because it addresses the issue of how the kids would percieve it which is an issue that is legitimate. I thank that person for their insight. . Everyone else has failed to justify their objection, therefore regardless of wether i take him to shows or not, provided his condition does not improve and nobody can give me a logical reason why i should not do it, then I feel it is in the best interest to attempt to construct something that would allow him movement outside on my patio that would prevent him from rubbing his skin and perhaps causing an infection.

SIMPLE LIVING / HIGHER THINKING

..Dude your sig says it all..live by it...Simpler living / higher thinking..do your self a favor...let it go. your better off.
enjoy your animals no need to compete.

thank you for your input. Just for a matter of record, I am competing for nothing. Simply standing up to a bully who refuses to adhere to the basic principle of humanity. Plain and simple.

I am a bit curious as to why you adressed me though and not FR or even better, both of us (this would have been a more just and unbiased post)? Just curious.

I do live by that standard and I do not think that anything that i have said or done on this forum would dictate otherwise. As soon as FR stops his wicked ways I will cease any hostility toward the man and support him (not always agree with him) but support his right to his opinion and acknowledge his contributions. Until that time i believe that it is my obligation to adress any and all posts directed toward me by any and all members of the forum, be they good, bad or indifferent.

I sincerely appreciate your post and your picture and look forward to your reply to my question.

Don.

Nydon, hello. I believe that Tibor addressed you in this matter and not both you and FR for the simple reason that it appears that you won't let it go. There are 12 posts in this thread from you, and 7 from FR.
Originally FR did not agree with your choice to put wheels on the back of your monitor. Honestly, what did you expect? This is totally unconventional thinking, which I suppose I should applaud you for. It seems a bit strange to me, but I can respect your passion for trying to give the animal a better life, even if I don't necessarily agree with it. Any post that unconventional is bound to attract critics and supporters alike.
FR did not agree with you and made you feel... well however you felt... and you decided to "stand up to him". OK, that's fine. But what does it accomplish? A lot of people look up the FR and his input, regardless of how he chooses to express it in this forum. FR is a pioneer in the monitor world and his opinions are very important to a majority of the keepers here. This should be obvious due to the lack of FR bashing you see here.
Trying to discredit, or call into question FR's character accomplishes what? This thread is no longer about monitors, is it? It's about wounded pride and ego. You seem very knowledgable and capable of doing much more with this forum than extending this thread any further with a personal feud.
Thank you ~ Varanusjoe

varanusjoe, Thank you for your input. I will heed your advice as i am tired of beating my head against a brick wall. I will state however that it is not a matter of letting it go, I was simply responding to messages directed at me. The reason there are more of my threads is because I responded to other peoples questions/posts and not just FR.

I will continue to post to this forum as time permits which right now i have a lot of. I was scheduled for a trip to Biak for a week and then to PNG for a month but the trip was canceled 10 days before I was to depart because I ended up in the hospital. By the time i recovered, it was too late to get in there before the rainy season so now i must wait until after the season. Until then i will visit and give my opinions but as I do not always do things in the traditional way, i am sure there will be many more long threads.

For now, i am through with this one and appreciate your thoughts.

THANKS, DON

PS. just so everyone understands, there are posts below but they were posted prior to me telling varanusjoe that i would no longer continue this thread. Just wanted to make that clear so everyone did not think i am just keeping on, those are earlier posts and if anyone including FR wants to respond to them please feel free but understand that I will not reply, not as a matter of rudeness but as a matter of putting an end to it all (at least for this thread).....although i guess by adding this ps i did not do as i said i would LOL ¤»¤»¤»¤».

thanks, Don

You did take it to a vet didn't you? Cheers

yes, please read my posts and you will find all of the information concerning the actions I have taken.

Thanks for your concern, Don

I am sorry I am not going to read thru all your whining junk. When I see, Oh Fr this and Fr that, I just move on to another post or go doing something real. Just answer the question or NOT. Cheers

Just trying to save you the grief...! you seem like a caring person ..I would just keep it to your self..like I do!...the monitor forums are all about ego's when you get down to it..until you can look in the persons in the eye's and carry a conversation..I don't try any more...

I am not trying to make fun or giggling at them. Your right thought, they sort of leave themselves wide open, so jabs do accidently occur. Kinda like when someone puts their hand ten inches from a snakes head, even a non biting snake JUST HAS to bite it. If those people would have put their hands on the snakes head or kept it away, there would not be a problem. But to put your hand right in the target zone is, well no getting around it, its silly, not really what you ought to do.

No, its not funny, that so many people miss what has occurred in the last 20 years. Its not funny that they do not understand how to learn. Its sad, thats all.

Its sad they HAVE to put their image in from of their animals. As you know, I do not give a flying fox trot about my image, I put the animals first. Also as you know, that always puts the keeper in bad lite. So I am very use to being poked at. When people poke at me, its totally meaningless. When the animals poke at me, its entirely my fault. If I make a mistake(happens alot) or something like if I have to put one down(really hard for me to do, specially if they are not willing to die) I do feel bad over these things. But what a don in NY says, hahahahahahahahahaha thats funny.

Yea, I already know I am a bad guy, it takes a bad guy to put animals in cages, the animals really ought to be wild and free to live or die.

But their not wild and they are here in the states, in a country they cannot survive in(excluding niles in Fla, at old folks homes) So its really up to us to give them a meaningful life. Is wheels on an argus meaningful? maybe for a sav, hahahahahaha j/k

As you see, these fine folks all want respect. I now ask, for what???????????? how could they ask me to respect them, when all they want to do is fight and not help with the keeping of monitors. We do not have to agree, nobody and surely not I, have ever said we are suppose to agree. I never expected any of us to agree. But I do expect folks to put the animals welfare above our disagreements. I know, thats too much to expect.

As normal, it does take a little mixing it up to bring the roaches out of the woodwork.

Oh by the way, if this fella was so smart, he would not put both of us on the same side. That is bad stradgy. He should have done what more successful attempts have tried, u know, to pit us against eachother. That is a far more successful approach then insinuating both of us are bad guys, hahahahahahahahaha that is funny and it did make me laugh.

So hows that project coming, is it off and rolling? Cheers

you DO get a kick out of this stuff, i know it : )

i think your biggest "problem" is that your personality does not come across well through typing. you are actually a lot of fun to talk to by phone or in person. or if not "fun", interesting : )

that project is stuck in the prelims, waiting to get dirt and cages moved around. it will happen : )
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

well FR if you want to keep on going instead of doing what you proposed and getting back to the subject, then what the hey. I have the time and it is free. How great is that?

unlike you, i will directly reply to your post and not pull things out of thin air (which is what most of your post is made up off, hot air) You wrote:

Posted by: FR at Wed Nov 22 12:38:19 2006 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

I am not trying to make fun or giggling at them. Your right thought, they sort of leave themselves wide open, so jabs do accidently occur. Kinda like when someone puts their hand ten inches from a snakes head, even a non biting snake JUST HAS to bite it. If those people would have put their hands on the snakes head or kept it away, there would not be a problem. But to put your hand right in the target zone is, well no getting around it, its silly, not really what you ought to do. What a bunch of irrelevant garbage is that. Putting your hand in front of a non-biting snake. Ooooh good analogy FR but then if it bit you I guess you could not call it a non-biting snake, could you. And how did I put my hand in the target zone. By posting something that you disagree with but yet cannot tell me in an intellegent and civil manner why?

No, its not funny, that so many people miss what has occurred in the last 20 years. Its not funny that they do not understand how to learn. Its sad, thats all. I have missed nothing dude. Been here the whole time. I love the past but I do not live in it, time you fast forwarded to now and stop living off of the past. We are where we are now because of people like you, not because of only you. I was right along side of you so do not act like you are some kind of god. You are not.

How do i not understand how to learn? What have you tried to teach me? Nothing man, go back and read and then tell me what you "taught". You gave an unsupported opinion in a condascending manner and then you want me to learn. Sorry dude but it does not compute. Try again.

Its sad they HAVE to put their image in from of their animals. As you know, I do not give a flying fox trot about my image, I put the animals first. Also as you know, that always puts the keeper in bad lite. So I am very use to being poked at. When people poke at me, its totally meaningless. When the animals poke at me, its entirely my fault. If I make a mistake(happens alot) or something like if I have to put one down(really hard for me to do, specially if they are not willing to die) I do feel bad over these things. But what a don in NY says, hahahahahahahahahaha thats funny. What in the heck did you just say? I mean really! What did you say. And you ended with a reference to what? What did I say that was funny? Not a clue. I really am starting to think you are further out there than I could ever have imagined. Reel it in dude and lets get real.

Yea, I already know I am a bad guy, it takes a bad guy to put animals in cages, the animals really ought to be wild and free to live or die. if you really feel that way, there are organizations out there that you could join and believe me, from your actions on this forum, you would fit right in with them

But their not wild and they are here in the states, in a country they cannot survive in(excluding niles in Fla, at old folks homes) So its really up to us to give them a meaningful life. Is wheels on an argus meaningful? maybe for a sav, hahahahahaha j/k why not? prove to me that it would be any less meaningful without. What do you mean by meaningful. I mean, please, give me something to base all of your opinions on. It is all merely speculations and are in fact based on nothing but your mindset.

As you see, these fine folks all want respect. I now ask, for what???????????? how could they ask me to respect them, when all they want to do is fight and not help with the keeping of monitors. We do not have to agree, nobody and surely not I, have ever said we are suppose to agree. I never expected any of us to agree. But I do expect folks to put the animals welfare above our disagreements. I know, thats too much to expect. all i want to do is fight and not help with the keeping of monitors. Cool! again, totally erroneous. You are involved in nearly every fight on this forum. Most of them you are the instigator. This is fact. So based on this fact, who is it that always wants to fight? Oh, ya right, i forgot, it is us. mm hmmm. Also please substantiate your last sentence by telling me how i am putting the animals welfare in jeopardy? Can't, can you?

As normal, it does take a little mixing it up to bring the roaches out of the woodwork. oh, so now I am a cockroach heh. You know you can put a coat on a jackass. You can even put a wig and a hat on it but when you get right down to it, it is still just a jackass.

Oh by the way, if this fella was so smart, he would not put both of us on the same side. That is bad stradgy. He should have done what more successful attempts have tried, u know, to pit us against eachother. That is a far more successful approach then insinuating both of us are bad guys, hahahahahahahahaha that is funny and it did make me laugh.
how did i put you both on the same side? robyn was cordial to me and i was cordial to her. I did nothing. Again, just jibberjab garbage from someone who enjoys putting a spin on everything. I never insinuated robyn to be a bad person. In fact i gave her a compliment. You may want to go back and read my post but before you do try getting either a new set of glasses or better yet a brain

So hows that project coming, is it off and rolling? Cheers

...
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0.1 c.b.97' 9' 60 lb. common boa "scarlet"
1.0 c.b.02' 6' 15 lb. "hi pink" common boa "maverick"
0.1 c.b.06' 17" firebelly x pastel boa "betty boa"
1.0 c.b. 06' 15" ball python "bart"(i finally got one that eats lol)
?.? 2 savannah monitors:3'"ozzy" 2'"uggy"
1.0 everglades x yellow ratsnake c.b. 04' 4' "pooh"
1.0 c.b.06' redear slider "dweezil"
1.0 c.b.04' emorys ratsnake "zeus"

"...does it bite?"

so pretty.

WHOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

LOL, correct me if I'm wrong, but last I knew you had a beard. I don't kiss nuthin' with hair on it's face

Quig
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Don't interupt me when I'm talkin' to myself

now, i didn't ask for no kisses...
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

Brother!
But then again my Mother says the same about me!
Happy Holidays to you and yours!
Mike

stay out of my glory hairy samurai!
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

full of knowledge and insight, as usual. Cheers

Obviously there is some sort of feud going on between the two of you, which I want nothing to do with. However, I would like to make a comment about Frank. I do not know him, have never talked with him, nor corresponded in anyway, shape, or form ... but... I do highly respect this man's opinion. He may come across as being "hard on beginners", but I think that people take his comments far to personally. If you ask a question like, "why won't my monitor eat salmon, but he'll gobble up trout?" what are you expecting? I think there are very few people in this forum who come even close to the time, and experience that members such as FR and SHvar have with their own monitor species, yet many people try to interject their own two cents because of the savannah that they bought a year ago, or the article they read in the recent reptiles magazine. A forum is an exchange of ideas amongst people. All people have opinions and some are not as agreeable as others. Personally, I go straight for any post that says FR or SHvar because I know that these posts are made by people with a huge amount of experience and knowledge at their disposal. If someone does not like FR's posts, then don't read them. This forum would suffer greatly without FR's presence and if you don't agree with that, then you are taking his words to personally. There are times when I would hate to be the person who posted the question that FR responds to. But then I look at the question and realize that I probably wouldn't have posted something like that. No matter how "hard" he may be on some questions, you can always take something away from the post. We should all know that if we are going to keep monitors and try to advance their husbandry as far as possible, we need to leave the egos behind, get a thicker skin, and learn to take constructive critisism a little better. With that being said, I hope FR continues to post his comments on this forum for many years to come. Thank you FR. ~ Varanusjoe

fr, Why would you say I seem to know you? Fact is I never heard of you and have been very successful without any help from you. The only thing i know of you is that you are very rude and inconsiderate of others. If you are truly here for the monitors then how can you mistreating the guardians of these animals be in any way shape or form, helpful to the monitors? How do you think you are helping monitors not in your care by acting the way you do? Sorry but your logic simply makes no sense. And why would you have to "know me" BEFORE you could treat me with dignity and respect. Am I not a fellow human being? If so then why do you rufuse to act like one.

Also in your previous post you said lets forget this hoopla and get back to the subject matter and then you just continue on with your crap. But then again, i would expect no less.

As far as "bringing me out" i was never hiding. I simply posted some pictures. I did it for others to enjoy and felt no need to brag, they were self explanitory. I also answered any questions address to me. Again, no need to brag. Not hiding just participating.

I truly hope that you rethink your approach to fellow herpers and treat everyone on this forum as something other than your disciples or in the case of new guys with questions, as some kind of gum on the bottom of your shoe. We are your PEERS, not your subordinates, regardless of experience and expect to be talked to as such.

Oh, and your not a threat to me so do not worry. In fact I hope I run in to you one day at a show. Then we can really have a free flow of ideas. Watcha think FR? Sound good?

Thanks, Don

CHEERS TO THAT.Well said I hope everyone reads this. That's the biggest problem with these's message boards. Everyone's always so rude saying unneeded things. It's like their bored. But I feel were here to help. You can do as you please but don't expect people to take it.
Here to help you can put your opinion in and correct people if something is wrong or you feel a different way. But everyone has their option and I'm sure others have a opinion to their's.

But anyway.
GOOD LUCK EVERYONE

Posting her never realize that they need alot more help than they ask for. These people post about needing one bit or info, then they post about their wonderful cages, wonderful husbandry, and how they are following some piece of published work to raise their animal by.
They dont realize that when they ask for help, to get (in their minds) a simple easy answer that they expect, they will find someone like FR who will correct their ideas, or give them the truth about their proclaimed wonderful husbandry with real sucessful experience. They dont realize that a complete overhaul of husbandry, or ideas that they have is what is needed, not t simple solution.
The other problem is that they come here for praise, they come here for attention, for a pat on the back, someone to say "your doding the best you can do" "no one could have done better for that creature", instead they get the truth, no sugar coating, they just dont have a basis for where to start to understand all thats really wrong with what they are doing. They think instead that they are being insulted, they think that they are being belittled, the only problem is that they take their inexperience, their lack of understanding of the species or genus they have now and advice given as a personal insult to them. This is why most people who give advice or try to help others post the way they do or some have stopped helping and left the forums, they cannot stand being insulted for helping others. It helps to thank someone or say nothing at all at least when they give you advice, rather than insult them ot insinuate that they are insulting you for trying to help you. The problem is that most here or other forums wont read FRs responses for the real valuable info contained, instead so many purposefully look for problems.
I tried something with my first dealings with FR, I saw a response to my post from him, I walked away, and came back a few days later to read it, or saved the response to read it after a few days. I noticed I was reading the advice, or what was really posted , not seeing the insults I was expecting. Also it helped when I got some experience with breeding monitors to better understand his positions on subjects, and his points of view.

a terrific post that is guaranteed to get lost in the shuffle : )

that really does about capture it SHvar. i would suggest giving that post a few days, rewrite it even smoother (spellcheck : ) and perhaps make it even a bit more general, and then have it ready to copy and paste up like you do with the Albig info. there are going to be 6001 more opportunities to communicate that info!
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

Wow worlds better..GREAT JOB!!!

Wow I read that wrong.. It's going to be hard makingsomething lik that. Mikng sure the wheels are too big so the body dosent lift to high but yet high enought so the feet dont drag. Plus making sure toes dont get in the way and making sure the structer dontest hurt the legs

Yes, I am sure it will take much "tweeking" and may prove to be impossible but I am a bit of a McGeiver and will give it my best shot. Back in the 70's when I was breeding hookbills on a large scale (mainly macaws) I was well known amongst the other breeders as a sap for taking in babies with defects (ie spradle legs) that they had no use for. ALthough it was cause for much grief, the success stories more than made the countless hours and failed efforts worth it.

I posted the little guys plight in the hopes that either someone had some experience and useful information for me or helpful suggestions (which I already got a suggestion for using velcro from pross8245 - thanks again for the input).

Nydon,

Do you have a water monitor housed with your Argus? I looked at your pictures, which I enjoyed, posted in the photo gallery and that appeared to be the case.

yes i do, i actually was going to post that picture to this forum but thought that since i just recently came back to the forum i would not post it and give FR something to rant about. Point seems mute now as he was able to do so on this thread.

Anyway, I know some people would frown on this but I do this as a matter of practice. Both have been housed together since they were babies. I spend every day in my reptile building and like many of my monitors, for at least part of the day, their cages are opened and they have free roam of the room.

I am a free thinker and in many ways very unorthodox in my approach but I have great success with my animals.

I have attatched the pics you made reference to.

Wow. Now that was some pent up hostility. Do we all feel a little better?

My 2 cents: I don't think you should strap a device on the back legs of a monitor and take him around to shows. I think he has enough issues in his life being caged with other and a deficit. I'd just give him a good life and see how he does.

As far as how he became that way: I would bet money he developed a fracture either in the egg late stages, or very early in life from an underlying calcium/MBD issue. Does the uninterpreted xray show a lucency (less calcified area) on his spine... perhaps a fracture that grew into a fibrous mass and did not ossify, and is obstructing his obturator nerve now? That is not that uncommon of a finding. There is a keeper on one of these forums currently that has an Argus with the very same findings. His is recovering, as yours should with time and good feeding/husbandry. If he developmentally had the injury, he would have underdeveloped and undermuscled legs and tail. He does not appear to have this birth defect from your picture. Can you post the xray somehow? Take a photo of it on a light board with a camera, i'd like to see it and comment further. I do not think euthanizing the fellow is the moral thing to do if he is eating and navy seal crawling now. As the callus (fracture remodeling site) heals, they decrease in mass and the nerve pressure may subside. Hope he pulls through for you!

thanks for the great info. no fracture or difference in bone density was apparent to me but then again, i will wait and hear from Choi. He is coming up this weekend. I will see about scanning the film and posting it. I took some pics of him today eating to post on the forum. I agree with you and frankly am amazed at the suggestion by members to euthanize him. Totally unexpected, at least from this group. I am hoping his condition will improve but am still not sure why everyone says don't give him wheels. i do not hear any supportive arguement against it and am just curious as to why. Because it is a reptile and not a dog is not a reason (at least in my line of thinking) and is the only justification i can recall as to why not to do it. I am not saying you said that, I am just bouncing it off you because you took the time to post and show interest in the guy.

thanks for the input I will keep you posted.

don

I'd love to see the xray. I look at xrays all day long with being an orthopedic PA, so i have a decent eye. The wheel thing-to me-means you are going to drag the animal around to show it. and that is just more stress on a disabled animal. they just hide stress well IMO, but it's there. Then there is the issue with placing a foreign object on the animal. He will likely bite at it and wriggle to get it off of him. If it topples over, it will be a big weight to drag added to his lame hindquarters. It's your animal, but i just don't see the benefit if he is able to propel himself around currently and isnt developing sores,etc.

Is nydon actually going through with this or not? The wheels-inmy opinion- should not be put on. Args are burrowers and like to tripod. I think if the lizard was used in a educational show, it would just seem silly to kids. Nydon seems very experienced with herps, but this is going too far. If I were him, I would take the poor lizard to a vet, see if the lump or whatever the problem is can be removed or fixed, and if not, euthanize it. No need to but the animal under unneccesary stress and pain. Lizards usually dont show stress in ways we notice. Also, the device could rub against the skin and get infected. You guys are changing topics every other posts, and forgetting why it was started. Anyway, the wheel-chair thing works for dogs and cats, not monitors, especially args.

I SAW JEFF CORWIN IN PERSON!!!!!!!

I just aked a question that was already answered. I was tired and reading through this thread and wanted to post and get it over with. So disregard that. Sorry, nydon!

ps: EVERYONE PLEASE RESPOND TO MY JEFF CORWIN POST IN THE GENERAL DISCUSSION FORUM! I HAD COMPUTER TROUBLE AND HAVENT BEEN ON SINCE SEPTEMBER! I WANNA TALK ABOUT IT! cheers!