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I know this picture isn't the greatest quality. Today is feeding day so I snapped a quick comparison picture, before they all got ornery.

A (top left) is a male 2006 normal harlequin Colombian boa
B (top right) is a female 2006 normal circleback Nicaraguan boa
C (bottom right) is a male 2006 normal Nicaraguan boa
D (bottom left) is a male 2005 Bluefield's Nicaraguan boa (in dark phase).

Yes, there are similarites to Colombians, AND similarites to Niacarguans. Mine most closely resembles a Costa Rican that I had too. What baffles me is that no one seems to believe the fact that they DID come from Ron Tremper. HE is the one that named them "Bluefield's" because of the area where the parents were caught in. Now I know that Tremper is not known as a boa guy but he IS THE leopard Gecko guy...and if you can't take his word then why believe anyone in this hobby? Now if Ron had named them ANYTHING else...maybe some fancy morph name, instead of defining them as a specific locale than they probably would be the next big thing....

Did everyone dis the motley boa because it didn't look like the typical colombian?

Sorry...started to rant...I'll cut myself off before I really get carried away....

Amie
Link

I had no idea there was a controversy over them. They look Nic enough for me. And I dont see what there would be to gain by lying about it really. Vinnie
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Thanks Vinnie Caruso
opinons are like a--holes... everybody has one and they all stink

Great post and I bet that Bluefields is extremely colorful. I find that they are very difficult to photograph to capture the colors accruately. Even in the pic you can tell he is a smoker.

There are a LOT of people who do not believe an animal is a Nic unless it is nippy and has a circleback pattern.
I have had first hand experience with people telling me that my pair of Bluefields are not Nics and in fact newborn colombians. I have had someone tell me that even though mine are from seperate litters and Ron Tremper assured me they are unrelated, that either I am lying or I was lied to because they look too much alike to be anything but siblings. I purposely picked ones with a certain look that would hopefully compliment each other at breeding time.
I was even called a scammer when I made the mistake of listing my pair for sale. I received emails saying I was trying to rip people off and trying to get more money for a common boa by saying it was something else.
I have even been told I am starving them because there is no way an 18 month old boa would be less than 3 feet. I do not starve them. They eat like pigs. They are just small.
It gets very frustrating speaking with someone about these animals only to have them come back and say "well, I still don't believe it".
I really thought there would be a market for a small docile boa that eats good so I got a pair to breed. When I made the mistake of listing this pair to go in a different direction, I was amazed at the response (and not much was positive).
I decided am going to keep them and going forward with my original breeding plans. Hopefully by the time they are ready to breed, more people will be aware of these and I won't be called a scammer.

I really think it all boils down to the fact that unless you are a large, established breeder, don't try to offer a new locale of boa unless you want to deal with negative responses.

Thanks Steve and good post!

I'll try to get some pics of him in his light phase over the weekend.

I don't know if I can get the same four snakes for the same type of picture...we'll see.

Amie

I like seeing these. Joe Rollo posted some nice pics of his once. Beautiful.

I look forward to seeing your little guy. LOL.

I don't understand any reason for any rant at all. A different looking Boa from a different location. About 17 or 18 years ago, I obtained Boas from Honduras that looked very much like that animal. I had obtained about 12 animals at that time. About eight of them looked like that animal. The others could have passed as Colombian Boas. All the animals had scale counts in line with what Colombian Boas have. I know they came from Honduras as they were animals that had been confiscated by Fish and Wildlife coming from Honduras after someone along the way made paperwork errors.

I would not use the Motley Boa as any sort of analogy as it is not remotely analogist to the discussion. The Motley is a mutation and coming in with normal looking babies, was clearly something dramatically different that in fact turned out to be a Co-Dominant mutation. But the unarguable dramatic difference between the Motley and the other Colombians imported is like night and day. This justified the name originated by Ron St. Pierre. Ironically enough, the first Motley was owned by Ron St. Pierre. They share the same first name, "Ron". Ron is not a Boa guy the same as Ron Tremper. He is a lizard guy too just like Ron Tremper. Ron Tremper's place in Herpetological history is set. There is no arguing his credibility and the numerous important contributions he has made to the hobby. He is certainly in the top five of all Herpers who have made positive contributions to captive care, maintenance and reproduction of Reptiles. He maybe should be number one on that list really. I can't think of anyone that has done more. The animal in the picture is a natural variation of BCI. In fact, likely many Boas in the area it came from probably look like it but, most likely not all look just like that. Is "Bluefield" an English translation of the specific locality the animal came from? So what is the rant about anyhow? I guess I am too dumb to understand.
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My point is that there is a lot of skeptisism in the herp world. No one trusts anyone on their word anymore (Not really much of a problem for the bigger well known breeders). I started the rant after seeing the Bluefield's arguement on many forums.

People who have never seen one first hand DO view then as just another Colombian. Not for what they really are, Nicaraguan because they haven't been encountered in the past.

No Jeff, If YOU imported them, everyone would want one...why? Because you're a Boa guru and your reputation proceeds you.

Also, I was using the Motley boa as an example of a different looking snake. I do know of one that was imported back in...1998 (I think). I may not have been the best example to give.

Amie

My complaint is that if someone of your stature in the boa community put up a picture of one of the boas and said it was a Nicaraguan, no one would have a problem.

On the other hand, when I put up a picture of one of these boas and say they are Nicaraguans, I get nasty emails telling me I don't know what I'm talking about. You would not beleive what I got when I tried to sell a pair. I was told countless times that they are nothing more than common boas and I was a scammer labeling them something different in order to get more money than baby colombians are worth.

Because of the variation in pattern and color from what most people asociate the typical Nicaraguan "look" with, many people feel inclined to tell you that it is not what you say it is.

It gets frustrating being called a liar (or that you were lied to regarding the animals) from various people.

A "rant" is not the way though... Get documentation from Ron Tremper detailing the origin on the animals and post that information. Arguing isn't much fun for most people anyhow. The presentation of incontrovertible evidence will shut down any arguments that others may be prone to give. The unpleasantness of an argument is only exacerbated by people who recognize their own inability to argue their position logically and then resort to the only debate tactics they have mastered and those are name calling and misrepresenting a statement made by you and arguing that imaginary statement. A good debate or argument is a beautiful thing and great fun with someone who is logical and capable of defending their position without stooping to these cowardly tactics. But alas, I digress...

One of the frustrating and wonderful things about the internet at the same time is that anyone and everyone can be, or pretend to be, an "expert". These experts come and then just fade away. I have seen many of them fly in and fly out. Most of the time the folks that really know the answers are not prone to post on every single thread choosing rather to make their contributions more sparingly. It's a little like fudge. Fudge is great stuff but you can only eat so much and not very often or it will just make you sick. The same is true of the incessant opinion posters.

All that being said, I'd obtain a statement from Ron and post a quote from him or from his web site and try to ignore the skeptics.

Have fun!
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Great advice, Jeff ... and I love the "Fudge Anaolgy"!

Also, I really like the pics of the Bluefields originally posted be Ron in the classifieds. I even thought about picking some up for myself, but came to my senses after recounting my current projects .

Amie ... it isn't all about "big breeders" and "reputation" ... much of what you are facing is simply dealing with the public and is found everywhere in retailing ... we also face it every day (could even write a book on the subject).

Till Next Time ... Bill

....so voicing my irrition is not allowed?

Check out Ron's website http://www.leopardgecko.com/BluefieldsBoas.html

.

But it isn't as effective a way of communicating and more importantly, winning your argument that bring folks over to your way side. Your animals were imported by Ron Tremper. Ron named them. Documenting those facts and posting them will quite those who are causing you grief. A rant only illicits more argument. Rant if you like but I would rather win. Good luck to you.
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Asking for documentation regarding the background on these boas. Since I have a 1.1 pair, I will need something in order to be able to market the eventual offspring. From the way the debate on numerous boards has been going regarding the origin of these animals, it looks like anyone with these would need some documentation as well. I really wish he had provided something when these were bought. I also wish I had thought to ask for it.

It should not be too difficult for him to provide locale data since he imported these and since he was the seller of the original group, a list of who bought them should be easy to verify as well (he already has it on the website where he has it initialed of who bought which animals).

I'll update with what his response is.

I truly hope you dont get to upset at his response to your inquiry.

Good Luck

M/

I know what they are even if half the boa community doesn't want to believe me.

All that matters anyway ....

M/

The Bluefield's ( D ) doesn't look anything like a Columbian or a " typical Nic." to me. It doe's look exactly like a Costa Rican and if I were guessing that's what I would have called it. That being said I have no doubt that the Bluefield's locality is legit , it's not that I would have complete faith in Trempers word but it's really well within reason that in this case he's telling the truth.To me it adds up. It's probable that boas with the Costa Rican look extend up the Nicaraguan coast just like they do down into Panama. Boas are naturally variable and set geographical points where one look ends and another begins don't exist in continuous populations from what I've seen . Stamping a locality name on an animal may be valid in the sense of that's where the animal originated from but not necessarily from a stand point of physical appearance.

Ernie Eison

Westwoodreptiles.com

True. Then why does anyone bother to keep locality boas at all? If you follow the logic that the geographical lines are that blurry than all boas classified as b.c.i and b.c.c. should be reguarded as South American or Central American and nothing more. The exception being the insular boas, but they would have to be isolated enough that the possibility of one floating on some debris to the mainland would be absolutely impossible.

I'm not trying to start an arguement with you Ernie, but I don't recall getting any documentation on the Roatan boa that I bought from you. Wouldn't it be the responsiblity of the seller to provide such papers?

Amie

"Then why does anyone bother to keep locality boas at all?"

That's the question I've been asking the Grey Band guys for years. I think from a collectors stand point it adds an interesting facet to have animals from specific locales and some would argue that it's important to maintain the genetic purity of a given population.

" If you follow the logic that the geographical lines are that blurry than all boas classified as b.c.i and b.c.c. should be reguarded as South American or Central American and nothing more.. "

That seems to be more or less what the taxonomical hair splitters have come up with so far.
It's the collectors who do all the locale categorizing and often times what becomes trade fact really isn't a fact at all. There are cases where connected populations do develop a distinctive appearance for the most part but I feel that in the majority of these instances areas of cross over exist in the various appearances that really prevent categorizing an animals locale based strictly on individual looks.

The reason that I provided no official documentation for the Roatan is because none exist.What ever documents that accompanied the importation have been long gone.The most anyone selling a Roatan can do is verify the bloodline.

The animals lineage can easily be traced back to the founder stock.In the case of the Harding bloodline the original animals were imported buy Tom Crutchfield back in the 80's and then purchased directly by Bob Harding who worked for Tom and to this day has animals from the original group .

Years later Denis Sargent acquired some of these boas and slapped the name firebelly on them and along with that came the story that these animals originated on Roatan. I feel that " Roatans" are distinct enough from other boa populations that they can be identified based on appearance . Ernie Eison

Westwoodreptiles.com
Westwoodreptiles.com

Did Yall "Read This" ?

M/

>>"Then why does anyone bother to keep locality boas at all?"
>>
>>That's the question I've been asking the Grey Band guys for years. I think from a collectors stand point it adds an interesting facet to have animals from specific locales and some would argue that it's important to maintain the genetic purity of a given population.
>>
>>" If you follow the logic that the geographical lines are that blurry than all boas classified as b.c.i and b.c.c. should be reguarded as South American or Central American and nothing more.. "
>>
>>That seems to be more or less what the taxonomical hair splitters have come up with so far.
>> It's the collectors who do all the locale categorizing and often times what becomes trade fact really isn't a fact at all. There are cases where connected populations do develop a distinctive appearance for the most part but I feel that in the majority of these instances areas of cross over exist in the various appearances that really prevent categorizing an animals locale based strictly on individual looks.
>>
>>The reason that I provided no official documentation for the Roatan is because none exist.What ever documents that accompanied the importation have been long gone.The most anyone selling a Roatan can do is verify the bloodline.
>>
>> The animals lineage can easily be traced back to the founder stock.In the case of the Harding bloodline the original animals were imported buy Tom Crutchfield back in the 80's and then purchased directly by Bob Harding who worked for Tom and to this day has animals from the original group .
>>
>> Years later Denis Sargent acquired some of these boas and slapped the name firebelly on them and along with that came the story that these animals originated on Roatan. I feel that " Roatans" are distinct enough from other boa populations that they can be identified based on appearance . Ernie Eison
>>
>>Westwoodreptiles.com
>>Westwoodreptiles.com

First off, Ernie, Good post!

BUT...if you follow Jeff Ronne's logic...without some sort of document IN HAND than locality is useless...might as well be a common Colombian or better yet just another central american. So your Roatans are just b.c.i. (no disrespect)

Amie

I agree with Ernie....Unless your a complete MORON...and visually can't tell the differences...They are TOTALLY different, BCI CAN be distinguished by VISUAL characteristics....Just becuase a Firebelly doesn't have paperwork doesn't mean its NOT a Firebelly and your just going to have to label it a BCI...This whole Notion that all BCI are all the same is total INSANITY!!!

Below is a pic of 4 different Localities...Hog Island, Costa Rican, Sonoran Desert, and Cay Caulker.....2 mainland and 2 Island...They all 4 TOTALLY look different

....And the ONLY one I got Paperwork on is the Costa Ricans, but you and Jeff Ronne are going to tell me that since I don't have paperwork on the others they aren't what I am saying they are...To go back to the original post the guy posted about his Bluefields, anyone with internet access and a little boa knowledge can go to Ron Trempers sight and compair...what that guy has is Bluefields, NOT COLOMBIAN...weither or not Bluefields are legit is another story...I personally don't think they where a big hit, thats why the guy is having trouble selling them...But thats a whole nother topic..

You can visually look at your Roatan Firebelly and see they are totally different than ANY other BCI locality....so why would you question it...???

The Question I always had...was Sonoran Deserts TOTALLY look different than Hog Islands....and Cay Caulkers look Totally Different than Costa Ricans...Why aren't they a seperate Subspeices? Pearl Islands have thier own Subspeices status, and to me they are just as different as the ones pictured above...I guess I am one of the ones that likes to keep species seperate not CLUMP they all together under BCI...Becuase to me they are Completely different, They all attain different lengths, different head structure, Different Coloration, Different Attitudes (Generally), Different Body Structure, Just about everything that would classify then a seperate subspeices they have it...but for some reason everyone wants to clump them all into just BCI....

I find the people who tend to clump all of them into BCI are the people who are into Morphs...When you combine localities into morphs the out come of the non-morph offspring are going to look somewhat in the middle...HogxHypo comes to mind...the normal offspring are neither Hog Islands NOR Colombians, but a cross between Hog Islands, Panamanians, and Colombians, cause most hypos are PanamanianxColombian Crosses....I see many Hog Islands advertised that I wouldn't consider to be Hog Islands but Hog Crosses, and I can Visually see the difference...I recently saw Pearl Islands advertised, and the major selling point the seller had was "Hurry...Add them to your Morph Project and produce something new"...I just about had a heart attach, WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD YOU BUY A PEARL ISLAND AND MIX IT WITH A MORPH!!!!

Sorry about the rant...and long post...But In my opinion you can Visually see differences in the locals, and the longer you work with them, the easier it is to tell the difference...its MAJORLY different in my eyes...
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Executive Reptiles
Amanda Kingsbury & David Kendrick
www.executivereptiles.com

With those Panamanians being passed as Saboge and or Pearl Islands I would want to move them out as fast I could too
Those Panamanians will work towards new morphs just like the pure strain Hog Isle did.Some of those Hypo Panamanians that came in with the rest of that lot were pretty nice animals.
But Sadly Saboge and Pearls Islands their not !

Great post BTW.....

M/

>>I agree with Ernie....Unless your a complete MORON...and visually can't tell the differences...They are TOTALLY different, BCI CAN be distinguished by VISUAL characteristics....Just becuase a Firebelly doesn't have paperwork doesn't mean its NOT a Firebelly and your just going to have to label it a BCI...This whole Notion that all BCI are all the same is total INSANITY!!!
>>
>>Below is a pic of 4 different Localities...Hog Island, Costa Rican, Sonoran Desert, and Cay Caulker.....2 mainland and 2 Island...They all 4 TOTALLY look different
>>
>>....And the ONLY one I got Paperwork on is the Costa Ricans, but you and Jeff Ronne are going to tell me that since I don't have paperwork on the others they aren't what I am saying they are...To go back to the original post the guy posted about his Bluefields, anyone with internet access and a little boa knowledge can go to Ron Trempers sight and compair...what that guy has is Bluefields, NOT COLOMBIAN...weither or not Bluefields are legit is another story...I personally don't think they where a big hit, thats why the guy is having trouble selling them...But thats a whole nother topic..
>>
>>You can visually look at your Roatan Firebelly and see they are totally different than ANY other BCI locality....so why would you question it...???
>>
>>The Question I always had...was Sonoran Deserts TOTALLY look different than Hog Islands....and Cay Caulkers look Totally Different than Costa Ricans...Why aren't they a seperate Subspeices? Pearl Islands have thier own Subspeices status, and to me they are just as different as the ones pictured above...I guess I am one of the ones that likes to keep species seperate not CLUMP they all together under BCI...Becuase to me they are Completely different, They all attain different lengths, different head structure, Different Coloration, Different Attitudes (Generally), Different Body Structure, Just about everything that would classify then a seperate subspeices they have it...but for some reason everyone wants to clump them all into just BCI....
>>
>>I find the people who tend to clump all of them into BCI are the people who are into Morphs...When you combine localities into morphs the out come of the non-morph offspring are going to look somewhat in the middle...HogxHypo comes to mind...the normal offspring are neither Hog Islands NOR Colombians, but a cross between Hog Islands, Panamanians, and Colombians, cause most hypos are PanamanianxColombian Crosses....I see many Hog Islands advertised that I wouldn't consider to be Hog Islands but Hog Crosses, and I can Visually see the difference...I recently saw Pearl Islands advertised, and the major selling point the seller had was "Hurry...Add them to your Morph Project and produce something new"...I just about had a heart attach, WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD YOU BUY A PEARL ISLAND AND MIX IT WITH A MORPH!!!!
>>
>>Sorry about the rant...and long post...But In my opinion you can Visually see differences in the locals, and the longer you work with them, the easier it is to tell the difference...its MAJORLY different in my eyes...
>>-----
>>Executive Reptiles
>>Amanda Kingsbury & David Kendrick
>>www.executivereptiles.com

" Sadly Saboge and Pearls Islands their not !"

What do you have to back this statement up. Enie Eison

Visual differences don't mean much when the lines can be blurred. I'm not talking about hybrids or integrades in captivity, but natural color/pattern variences. Can you tell the difference between a boa from Hog Island and one from the mainland coast? Some say yes, some say no, but both look similair? Point blank, a BCI from Cetnral America without paperwork is just that, a Central American BCI. A Bluefields Nicuaraguan with documentation would not be considered a generic Central American, but instead a Bluefield Nic. Same goes with any other locality, or "micro" locality.

I KNOW that there are visual differences in the different Central American locales...especially between Hog Islands and basically ANY C.A. morph....I'm not the one who started this. I am just making a point reguarding Jeff Ronne's post saying that unless you have documents on a specific animal you don't know where it came from and they should all be lumped as nothing more than b.c.i or b.c.c.(unless proven otherwise). Not my logic...but seems to be the logic of others.

I believe that if a well known, respected breeder sells an animal as being from a specific locale, then why argue that? Because there are no "papers"?

And Mainland Hondurans have been confused with Firebellies visually.

Be careful starting a rant...this is how these posts started...

Amie

" BUT...if you follow Jeff Ronne's logic...without some sort of document IN HAND than locality is useless...might as well be a common Colombian or better yet just another central american.
"So your Roatans are just b.c.i. (no disrespect) "

None taken Amie , that's simply calling a spade a spade in the cold scientific sense. Roatans are classified as imperator along with Hog Islands ,Sonora's , crawl cay's and most other locality animals.It's only in the herpetocultural sense that they are separated.

I don't fully agree with Jeff Ronne's logic. With some animals offered as locality specific it would be impossible to distinguish them from animals found in other regions based on their looks with out some sort of documentation but that doesn't necessarily make them generic.A bloodlines origins can sometimes be traced to the original founder stock with a fair amount of acuracy .From there it's a matter of accepting or not accepting what you find because nothing else to validate their point of collection remains.You have to keep in mind that many of these boas have not been imported for years and back when they were it was nothing more then so and so is getting a shipment from wherever lets go and check it out. Then it was simply buying the animals and that was it. Nobody ever asked for paperwork to document anything and nobody would give you any if did. You were told the story about how they were acquired ( with out names ) it was always the guy and that was it. It was a different time.

As for the Roatans from what I've seen going back to the founder animals they have a consistent look that separates them from other locality's. I remember the shipments that would come out of Honduras and how different these boas were from the other stuff I had seen. I mean if someone had a bucket with nic's, corn isles, some of the Mexican stuff etc. it would be tough to separate them with 100% certainty but throw a Roatan in there and it jumps out at you .I don't think there's any way someone could show me a Roatan that wasn't and convince me that it was. I would never consider breeding one with any other imperator locale. This is a different scenario then the one involving the Bluefields and some other locales.

I don't think there's anything visually to separate the Bluefields from the boas that occur in Costa Rica and possibly other near by parts of Nicaragua and that's the only reason why some sort of documentation would be nice simply to verify the source and provide at least some type of separation from the look alike's. I do think the information behind them is legit. Ernie Eison
westwoodreptiles.com

" I mean if someone had a bucket with nic's, corn isles, some of the Mexican stuff etc. it would be tough to separate them with 100% certainty but throw a Roatan in there and it jumps out at you .I don't think there's any way someone could show me a Roatan that wasn't and convince me that it was" Ernie Eison

I have to disagree with you there, I could without a doubt pick out which ones where Nics, Corn Islands, and which ones where mexicans, Granted there is lots of variablity in those especially Nics, but I personally think Corn Islands and Sonorans (Mexicans) are just as different and unique as Roatan Firebellies.....

Even with all the variability there still common things that make each locale unique and special, YES...there is going to be execption to the rule..The few that look nothing like thier steriotypical look...but generally you WOULD be able to pick out which was which...AT least I think I could...
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Executive Reptiles
Amanda Kingsbury & David Kendrick
www.executivereptiles.com

I have seen Corn Islands that could easily be mistaken for Roatans

Amie

I have too !
But if you work with them enough the Honduran Firebelly's shine right thru ........
I will no longer refer to them as Roatans because that label implicates an Island Specific locale BCI. There are no confirmed collection(s) or sightings of said form currently on or from Roatan Island Honduras.Never has been formal documentation because the original Honduran Imports were from pre-CITIES date, and until someone produces "proof" of capture/collection from that locale "Roatan Island" is where we would all like to believe they came from.

M/

>>I have seen Corn Islands that could easily be mistaken for Roatans
>>
>>Amie

I didn't know that. I thought that the ones that Crutchfield had had were collected from Roatan Island.

Amie

In a previous post I stated the following ,

" Years later Denis Sargent acquired some of these boas and slapped the name firebelly on them and along with that came the story that these animals originated on Roatan."

In the late 80`s Tom Crutchfield imported 3 shipments from Tom Schultz in Honduras.In these shipments were a small number of boas with the best animals arriving in the first group.Bob Harding got first picks and acquired the really sweet animals.The other animals disappeared to who knows where. The exact locale that these animals were collected from is a mystery that will never be solved. It's very probable that the animals were collected not on Roatan itself but on the near by islands of Utila, and Guanaja. Roatan being the largest and best known of the islands is probably why that name was chosen to represent them and the one that stuck.

Firebelly Bloodlines

It's very conceivable that every "Roatan" available today is a descendent of Bob Hardings founders. Animals he still owns . As stated earlier in this post only Bob's animals are traceable. He worked and bred them for years before Dennis Sargent bought his animals from Bob and claimed his own bloodline.The additional firebelly clutches that Bob produced were sold primarily to Rob Mcguiness Gladeherp and Mike Ellard Burgundy Reptile Traders .

My synopsis ,

The Roatan tag is probably as valid as most other locality names. The founding animals did originate if not on Roatan itself then at least with in the region.As I said before these animals stood out. I thought they were fantastic then and I still do. I didn't get a chance to buy any off the first shipment but fortunately Bob Harding took enough animals as to provide some diversity in his breeding group .The second and third shipments were not as good and I'll leave it at that. Ernie Eison

Thanks, Ernie. That clears up that. You should keep that info somewhere so others can refer to it, maybe on an info page on your website or something?

Amie

After speaking with Crutchfield this is where I ended up as well.
I also agree with Tomfor the most part that Big Utlia Island is where the founder Hondurans with the red bellys came from.
The animals we have are from the original 1.1 that Dennis purchased from Bob in 96. We also have some 04/05 from Dennis'first produced litter in 01 and also from his 02 litter.
We also have that 06 Harding bred female we purchased from you.
All but the newst female trace straight back to Bob's litter in 1996.
Ill try and get time to catch up to you on the phone and express a few more opinions at a later date. LOL!!

M/

>>In a previous post I stated the following ,
>>
>>" Years later Denis Sargent acquired some of these boas and slapped the name firebelly on them and along with that came the story that these animals originated on Roatan."
>>
>>In the late 80`s Tom Crutchfield imported 3 shipments from Tom Schultz in Honduras.In these shipments were a small number of boas with the best animals arriving in the first group.Bob Harding got first picks and acquired the really sweet animals.The other animals disappeared to who knows where. The exact locale that these animals were collected from is a mystery that will never be solved. It's very probable that the animals were collected not on Roatan itself but on the near by islands of Utila, and Guanaja. Roatan being the largest and best known of the islands is probably why that name was chosen to represent them and the one that stuck.
>>
>>Firebelly Bloodlines
>>
>>It's very conceivable that every "Roatan" available today is a descendent of Bob Hardings founders. Animals he still owns . As stated earlier in this post only Bob's animals are traceable. He worked and bred them for years before Dennis Sargent bought his animals from Bob and claimed his own bloodline.The additional firebelly clutches that Bob produced were sold primarily to Rob Mcguiness Gladeherp and Mike Ellard Burgundy Reptile Traders .
>>
>>My synopsis ,
>>
>>The Roatan tag is probably as valid as most other locality names. The founding animals did originate if not on Roatan itself then at least with in the region.As I said before these animals stood out. I thought they were fantastic then and I still do. I didn't get a chance to buy any off the first shipment but fortunately Bob Harding took enough animals as to provide some diversity in his breeding group .The second and third shipments were not as good and I'll leave it at that. Ernie Eison

.

I admit I'm no expert BUT I can tell you that I have many Nics that resemble the 'bluefields nics' and, in general the overall appearance of nicaraguan boas varies to such a great degree...there is simply NO way anyone who works with a large enough group of nics could say they all have a certain generalized look. I could list 100 different features that they do not all possess. Not to mention that they change with each and every shed, as well as day and night shades of color. Now with that being said... I would not necessarily discredit the Bluefields boas as being nicaraguan...HOWEVER...I'm not sure paying $500 for a bluefields boa vs. a $30 nicaraguan is completely reasonable. I think its partially psychological. People generally want something that no one else has. Its human nature. Therefore, attaching a locality name to a particular boa might possibly offer that fulfillment. I would also consider that Nicaragua is without a doubt one of the poorest countries in central america. I doubt a local person collecting boas for a farm is going to care which town the boas originated from. Maybe I'm wrong...but I have seen normal nics that even resemble corn island boas. There is no doubt that Nicaragua is a unique country and has boas with several different appearances. However, I've never been there and I bet very few can say, with any real certainty, that a nicaraguan boa's appearance is due to origination from a particular town. Who knows if integration? with another neighboring locality occurs OR with an island locality, such as corn island, or possibly integrades are produced from west and east coast versions of the Nics...who really knows what occurs down there?... I'm sure that the collecting practices of locals are not scientific and I highly doubt there are records kept on the origin of the breeders used at farms or facilities or wherever. Once again, who knows. It all comes down to what you like and how much you're willing to pay for it. Its late and I'm tired so sorry in advance for any typos or for anything offensive.
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Sincerely, Jason
www.NortheastSnakes.com
NortheastSnakes@verizon.net

Nice response Jason!

And, truth be known, I paid $200 for mine...not unreasonable for a nic that doesn't look quiet like "normal" Ben Siegel sells nics all the time to little and big breeders and no one questions his pricing...and how many people have gotten documentation on every animal that they got from him? What makes Ben's word more credible than Ron's?

Amie

I'd love to see some pics of you new nic additions!

or any other retail breeder for that matter ......

M/

[snipped]

>> What makes Ben's word more credible than Ron's?
>>Amie
>>
>>I'd love to see some pics of you new nic additions!

Up untill a few years ago these guys were all lumped together as Central American Boas. They didn't have any country tied to them. The majority were imported out of Nicuargua, but some came out of other countries. Hell, a small percentage that came out of the Nicuaraguan shipments were obviously not Nicuaraguan. Today the Boas that come out of Nicuargua are labled as Nics, however some of the breeding farms down there don't differentiate between localities. Therefore, you still get a few oddballs out of the masses. That Nic label only confirms they were imported out of Nicuaragua. The Bluefields are different. The founders are documented so that distinguishes them from the regular ol' fashioned Nicuaraguan Boas. That, I believe, is the difference

Well Amie...pics are kinda touchy right now. I spent a lot on a new camera on ebay a few weeks back ONLY to find it not working last week b/c my wife dropped it outside on the sidewalk. Ugh. Oh well, xmas is around the corner.

As for documentation, it all comes back to making an animal more marketable for a higher price. At $30, if a snake has the look someone wants, then most people won't care if the documentation is written on a piece of toilet paper.lol. But when you price animals in a higher range, it tends to attract a more discreminating hobbyist.

Also, be careful about comparing specific people in this discussion; it may lead to the thread getting pulled off the forum. Especially since neither dealer/breeder you mentioned is likely to reply. Whenever anyone makes a new claim, it will ALWAYS come under scrutiny. Just look at the name moonglow for instance. Anything new is usually met by skepticism until proven. I personally think the bluefields name was simply a marketing tactic. Do these boas really exist in the area surrounding the town of bluefields? or were they simply shipped from bluefields? were they selectively breed for their traits? These are all questions that will be raised once a name is attached to the animal. I'm just playing devils advocate...I personally think that they have a cool look and are worth the money you paid so I'm not even really sure why there is even any debate...b/c it all comes down once again to...if a boa has the look you want for the price you are willing to pay...they it should be worth it for you.

Oops...gotta run to family's for turkey day.
happy holida

They do have a unique look. More like a costa Rican IMO and they can be verified. The parents were collected in the town of Bluefields. That is where the name came from. Being able to tell where they originated, that's all. I have been on contact with Ron regarding my 1.1 pair. He has agreed to provide the copies of the CITIES documents on these. Hopefully this will end the debate about origin.
These are actually not all that expensive. In the range of a nice colombian. It's only when you compare the price to "normal" nic that you see a large disparity.

......

Nice looking animals !
Glad the paper trail will work out in your favor.
Props to any breeder that will take the time out for a customer.

M/

As I mentioned in a reply below...I don't see why anyone would debate the name...and if they don't agree with it, then they don't have to buy any. If Ron produces a specific line of Nics and wants to call them something specific to differentiate his line from other imported wild-types, then he has the right to do it. I think the specifics of origin and paperwork only apply to those collectors that are highly discrimanatory (sp?) with regard to exact locality. I think that these specific boas are nice on their own merit regardless of what their name or locality is. With that being said...someone who isn't happy about it could argue that the paperwork may simply show only that the animals were exported out of Nicaragua AND not that they were collected in bluefields. I don't know since I have never gotten paperwork with the exception of a small group of new bloodine hog island boas, and I don't even have that....a friend has it. Is someone not going to buy corn island boas or bolivians from (insert breeder's name here) b/c they don't supply copies of the paperwork? Also consider that some people have attempted forging paperwork over the years...not that this is the case at all in this scenario...I just remember reading something about it happening when boas were shipped to Europe. Anyway, all things to consider....but overall...I don't think its healthy to put too much weight on the documentation....especially if you're not working with a conservation group with a goal of repopulating a locality.

Cheers...and happy thanksgiving.
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Sincerely, Jason
www.NortheastSnakes.com
NortheastSnakes@verizon.net

Jason,

Your right. I'm happy with my purchase and eventually I would like to get a female for my male but the biggest problem seems to be that it wouldn't be any good to even bother breeding them if the babies are not marketable as what they are.

As far mentioning names...I don't see why the thread would get pulled, I didn't say anthing derogatory. I was mearly using names as a specific example to prove my point....Kinda loses it when I say "Mr.T." and "Mr. S." now doesn't it?

Amie

Jason,

Your right. I'm happy with my purchase and eventually I would like to get a female for my male but the biggest problem seems to be that it wouldn't be any good to even bother breeding them if the babies are not marketable as what they are.

Why do they have to be 'marketable' in order to want to breed them? You could still make money off of them if they are beautiful and people want them. I know I'd get a pair if the price was reasonable. I really don't think anyone doubts that the boas are from Nicaragua. And I don't see why anyone would dispute calling them bluefields boas, if they are produced from a specific line by Ron. If people don't like it, they don't have to buy any. It sorta reminds me of when I had an exceptional pair of spotted pythons produced by the largest python breeder in the country..I had them listed in the python classifieds years back. I listed them higher than what anyone else was selling them for and got a lot of 'hate' emails about my selling price. I hated having to continually justify my selling price or practices to people who weren't even interested in buying them. I never did lower the price and ended-up selling them to a happy buyer. I felt they were worth more money than average spottes due to their nice quality. Same thing sorta applies....if people want them, they will buy them mostly based on their look, not the name. Names can have some impact but when it comes down to it, if the reptile is not attractive-looking...it will not gain any interest. From what I've seen, those boas are very nice and are above the average-looking boas from central america.

BTW, the reason I made the comment about mentioning names was simply b/c there are a lot of Nic importers and someone could be offended that you're only naming two OR they may see it as a form of indirect advertising and report it to mods for TOS violation. I know you didn't mean anything bad by it.

Anyway, hope your Thanksgiving was an nice one.
-----
Sincerely, Jason
www.NortheastSnakes.com
NortheastSnakes@verizon.net

Well, I don't mean get-rich-quick. I mean that,I, a very small breeder, wants to breed some the Bluefield's boas. Now, let's say that the Bluefield's nic (first time mom) has 10 live babies. As much as I'd like to keep ALL of them, spacing limitations mean that I can keep only one or two pair. So what do I do with the rest? Well, most people would sell them, right? If there is disparity in trying to sell them as anything more than a central american boa in the reptile community, then what am I supposed to do with them? If they can't be sold on kingsnake, and no one at the local shows knows anything about them, and selling to a pet shop isn't really the answer...

Most pet shops that I know of would treat them as "colombian red-tails" But if someone goes to this store, buys one of the Bluefield's babies and tries to feed it like a colombian, it will not fair well. I am working on posting a picture of my male in comparison to Colombians...just give me a few minutes to post it.

That's what I meant by "marketable"

Amie

I know you didn't mean get rich quick...if worse came to worse you could simply sell them for the price of a well above-average Nic....which I've seen listed AND sold over the years for between $100-$200 dollars in the ks classifieds. I'm honestly not sure what the disparity in price would be between your cbb and less expensive farm-hatched (which are potentially riskier).
Not everyone is equiped to run fecal floats or patiently wait 6 months for a baby nic to start feeding OR to feed live mice, which 99% of all fh nics eat. Additinoally, I don't think that it's responsible to breed snakes if you don't have the room to house the babies if they don't sell. Corn snake hobbyists face ALL the same selling issues you've mentioned PLUS more. The market is flooded with them. Ball Python breeders are also facing the similar issues now. Spiders and Mojaves selling for thousands in the past are now available for $750 or less....if breeders want to charge more and get their asking price, they'll have to sit on them longer and patiently wait until their price is met. (btw, this was always my problem with the supply and demand argument w/BP pricing....most large scale breeders HAVE the rack space to house high-end animals until their asking price is met so demand doesn't necessarily have to factor in). I respect anyone wanting a return to help support the hobby...we all want that given all the costs and expenses. If your heart is set on producing them, then 1st produce some, 2nd list them for sale for your asking price based on their appearance (not solely the name), 3rd house them until either they sell for what you want (happy times) OR you until get frustrated (not so happy times), 4th if you get frustrated and must sell, wholesale them or trade them if you simply don't have the room for them...sure it would be frustrating but the other option would be to not breed them at all and admire them as pets. At any rate, there is always risk involved with selling reptiles. The 'what do I do if the babies don't sell?' question is not new. In fact, there are a TON of beautiful reptile species that dealers/breeders 'in it for profit' will not touch due to difficulty with selling the babies. At any rate...this is turning out to be a meaningful or educational discussion....as many have brought up valid points that I didn't either think about or consider w/regards to any locality boas in general.

Jason,

I hope some good did come out of these threads. I wasn't intentionally trying to start trouble. I know that I learned a few things.

Now on a slightly different angle, but sort of the same in reguards to the market side.

I have always liked the snow boa. But could never afford one. Even now shelling out a few thou for one is a little more than I'm willing to do. But I did buy a ghost, and and albino. Now my intention is to produce hets, then breed the hets. So in trying to produce one snow (maybe even a moonglow...we'll see what the odds are on that) there will be a few boas (hopefully if I do eveything right and the boas gods are good to me) that I will try to market because I don't intend on keeping all the hets and all the hypos, sunglows, and/or whatever is produced in the final mating...

Mainly I want the satisfaction of producing my own snow....but in order to do so there will be other babies. So you're telling me not to even breed the ghost and albino because they the babies might not sell? Since that is many years away, most likely I will have enough caging for all the babies because I do plan on building enough racks to house them all(well, guessing on average boa litter sizes).

Amie