Reptile & Amphibian Forums

You know in the past two years I have seen more people bottom out their pricing more than ever before. Before anyone goes into a "supply and demand" speech save it. It's all been said before. The thing I see not only online but especially in pet shops is a generic Black N White or Albino Cal King will be bought faster than any Brooksi morph including the best selling Hypos and Axanthics.
Now I see new morphs some of us have been waiting for for years. The double and triple hets have also dropped and the wow factor of the new morphs is a yawn. Instead of holding onto these snakes people worked so hard to produce what do they do? Cut prices over and over until they're practically the price of the freaking Cal King. It boils down to people producing snakes they do not want to take care of so they send them packing. "No one is buying them".....how many times have I heard this. Plenty, and I understand not as many people are interested in these Brooksi as compared to the Cal Kings and other snakes. This snake is taking a beating just like the Hondurans, but the difference is the guys who took the time to establish the Hondos made a fat profit before they bailed on the snake.
Why would anyone want to look ahead to new things in Brooksi, especially as an investment when the newest morphs start off at a reasonable price and drop before December comes?? Seems as if no one has any patience anymore, and certainly don't care about others who they're supposed to be inspiring to take the time to see what great snakes these are too work with. There's always people bashing Ball Pythons on here. Some breeders are the types who sell for a fraction of the cost to undercut others but not often does anyone mention the guys who hold onto their snakes, AND ACTUALLY ENJOY KEEPING THEM, and then sell them for a price the snake is worth. These people do exist, and it can be said for some people who work with all types of reptiles. I crack up everytime I read a "is it pure" post on here. What is the difference as all these snakes are destined to be worthless at the rate things are going wether they're pure or not? Hell the Hybrids probably make more money.
How many of use waited for the White Sided Hypo...and then when it appeared since it was not a neon glowing incredible hatchling many dismissed it as "OK " at best. No one has even seen a freaking adult yet! For all we know this could be the greatest looking kingsnake ever seen. I have no plans to stop working with Brooksi, I don't care how long it takes to sell them or how much money I make. The colubrid market should be thriving right now with the amount of frustrated Python breeders looking for something else to work with. Instead of showing people these snakes are worth their dollar we are showing them they're barely worth a glance. I hope next year is better than this year as far as this is concerned. The market for Reptiles in general is going in the toilet. We only have ourselves to blame. If people do not want to care for the animals they produce or can not move as many as they thought, they should breed less snakes or throw in the towel. It is no wonder why the phrase "he is just in it for the money" has become a common saying in this hobby. I love money. But I love my snakes and give consideration to my customers and their future in the hobby. Brooksi are my favorite Kings. They have been described by many as one of the best pet snakes you can own. Now I see fictional unproven marketing nonsense, crticism everything is a hybrid, undercutting, and the "that's not a Brooksi..its a Floridana" argument as what should be expected whenever this snake is spoken of. Its no wonder so many people bailed on colubrids and got in Pythons. Or is it? How many morphs have we seen and how many are still too come? Why did they make thousands while we made hundreds? Say what you want about those pet rocks....I am no huge fan[but I do like them]but they are incredibly popular. That entire market has not crumbled as many think, and they will always outsell Brooksi. This is a shame, we should be doing more to keep these snakes in the spotlight as THE snakes to work with. Show people these are more interesting, easier to care for pets that come in a wide variety of colors with a lot more to be seen in the future. Reptile shows used to be a place where you went to see the newest of the new, the unveiling of never before seen snakes. Now when new things appear it means nothing??? I hope this turns around, this could be the beginning of a new rise in popularity for colubrids and I hope Brooksi[and all Kings really] get the attention they deserve from people who are devoted to caring about their animals and projects. Time will tell Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

np

Well I hope it will soon be professional but, I find there to be much beauty in the simple colors of the brooksi kings thats why I bought a hypo and a het from Tom (have'nt regretted paying the higher price at all) I bought these because they are something not alot of people have. I think that the problem is not enough pics of adults circulating to show how beautiful they do eventually become. (I searched for like an hour before I found some decent adult pics other than Toms site and Bluerosies I think it is) I mean because these snakes change drastically from birth. Unlike the popular cal kings which is pretty much you see is what you get. People know this. While I'm not complaining about the prices but I can see Toms point in that look at the applegate gophersnake albinos they have'nt dropped below 100 bucks (except for the occasion sale or backyard breeder) The truth is that nothing truely spectaular has servaced in the brooksi world they 4 best lookers are the whitesided which have retained there price rather well as apposed to the black rats white sideds. I like the hatchling hypo white sided but there is no telling what it will look like as an adult. The Blue Brooksis (anerystic) are gorgeous animals that really get better with age. And finally the Regualar old hypo.

On the contrair I work at a pet store and we freqently stock such kings like goini and offshoots like grey rats and they always go quicker than corns and cal kings. I think the draw is not everyone has them and they are unique in that nothing looks much like them (as adults anyways)

Just a disclaimer: I am not a professional breeder just an aspiring one but I think my oppinion is just as good as anyone elses.

GO Brooksi!!!

I just wanted to add that I would rather pay 25 dollars more for a snake that was healthy and came from a reputable breeder than an animal from an unreputable breeder. I think that people think they get what they pay for which I think people truly believe which is why they spend more money on things they can get cheaper.

I just want to re-emphasize that there has not really been anyhing other than a blue brooksi that is a REAL Eye splitter like so many other snakes species have that made them popular in the first place. IE, Silver and Orange bairds, Albino Balls, Albino sonoran milks, Applegate gophers, and finally the oketee conrs and regular old (quality) cal king.

When respect to prices look at kathy loves site, here corns are more than everyone else. Why do you think that? because they are usually better than most others. I mean brooksi are great we just have to emphasize how great they are.

Also you have to think when you say oh its only a 25 dollar snake online it is in essence a 65 dollar snake. Just a little bit of a reminder.

Coming from one who has had almost all of the morphs, produced a couple of firsts/ near firsts, paid dues going to the expos, time on the forum, etc., I wish it was the way you suggest.

Kings are easy to breed, and as soon as 18 months. They produce a lot of offspring and easily double clutch. The offspring readily feed on available food sources. I know you know this.

Professional Breeders have an article on their web site about choosing animals to breed and maintaining value. I think the article is from the mid nineties but still holds true today. The traits that make the brooks a hardy captive also contribute to the financial instability of its morphs.

Speaking of morphs, how many morphs are there now? high yellow, sulfur,sulfur lavender,white phase,hypo,flame hypo,axanthic in 2 or 3 forms,albino and its several forms, ghost,snow,lavender hypo,peanut butter, jelly, whiteside, axanthic whiteside, hypo whiteside...15 to 18 different phenotypes, depending how you count them. I think with each new morph within each subspecies, it becomes harder and harder to maintain excitement and a high asking price, especially when so many phenotypes are double homozygous. Collectors often have many of the pieces together already in their collection and can make "their "own" in short order. The white phase was a unique trait, not readily reproduceable ( started from one source) and did very well for quite some time in the colubrid market. Combinations of the ws trait will have a harder time of making a go at it. I think unique traits in any market will have a longer life and greater stability than combined trait regardless of the genetic origin.

These are some of the things I thought about last fall when I decided to start selling off my collection. I bred brooks for as long as I did not for the money but as animals I loved, and met all my goals. I sold alot but traded alot for what I needed as well. This year when I produced two whiteside hypos, I did not get a buyer for the price I wanted but got a trade for what I wanted to an individual that really wanted the animals- as good as cha ching. That is what mattered most to me.

I will always have some brooksi in my colony but will probably not have as big of a collection as I did. Money in colubrids or in morphs? It may still be there, but not in the way I operate or have time/space for now. I would say to anyone, be sure to breed what you absolutely love to work with. More unique characteristics appearing in brooks may help. Another thing that may help is legislation. I can't help but speculate between development, fire ants and monitor lizards, brooksi are going to be rare sooner than later. Someone would be wise to have a documented locality collection... that would be indisputably valuable.
just my 0.001%

daveb

Dave, this last paragraph has a lot too say
"I will always have some brooksi in my colony but will probably not have as big of a collection as I did. Money in colubrids or in morphs? It may still be there, but not in the way I operate or have time/space for now. I would say to anyone, be sure to breed what you absolutely love to work with. More unique characteristics appearing in brooks may help. Another thing that may help is legislation. I can't help but speculate between development, fire ants and monitor lizards, brooksi are going to be rare sooner than later. Someone would be wise to have a documented locality collection... that would be indisputably valuable.
just my 0.001% "
I agree, work with what you love....and in a way this is part of what I am getting at. People love the snakes so much that after they produce them they shuffle them out the door to whoever wants to put out a few bucks for them when they know they should be getting more for the snake? I bought a Snow from someone this year for a low price....never spoke to the guy on the phone, had to ask for a tracking number, and never heard from him since. Not even a thanks hope you like your snake email yet he is supposed to be a "pro"? Seems he is fed up with not making money any more, so the snakes he once cherished are not worth his time? I HATE this mentality.

Also the fire ant comment. We know it is hard to find a real het for nothing Brooksi anymore, we have discussed it here and I can tell you in 2004 I spent 8 weeks in Florida and could not find any even from the dealers there. They've been rare for quite some time. Now something new is usually coined "rare", as they are if there's only a few available. Yet somehting that is rare can still apparently be worthless. Things have really changed in the hobby, as this was not the case until recently. Now $500 a snake is considered steep, when not too long ago it seemed something new may begin at prices over $1000. People who breed LA Pines try to stress the importance of the pricetag. That being if they're more expensive than a lot of other Pits the people who own them will be choosy about where their stock goes and it may help keep people from buying them who intend to hybridize them. In other words the guys working with them try to show integrity. They want the snake to be preserved in collection as untainted as possible. This is already a lost cause with Brooksi and that is a shame. But with morphs, and especially new morphs....the message people are getting is they can name thier own price on just about anything these days. How many White Sided Hypos do you think are out there now? By the time theres 50 of them they'll be as cheap as normal Hypos. I am just trying to say that these snakes are worth something to me as being able to offer the best Kings for pets, and we are making them look worthless no matter how insane the genetics are to make spectacular variants with them by selling them for peanuts. They do not have to be costly when they're on every other tables at a show. But they should not be given up on pricewise the same year or year after they're produced because people get tired of caring for them. That shows me those sellers get nothing of a reward for keeping the snakes other than the payoff after they sell. Then they complain how they didn't make enough money on top of it. The reward should also have something to do with enjoying the snakes for what they are, pets. Pets you sell to people with the confidence they will have an easy to care for snake that stands out when compared to the many other snakes the classifieds have to offer. Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

tom and dave, you guys are making good points. all i am gonna say is i will work with and keep the snakes that inspires me. i am just gonna do what i love best and same go to you guys! i don't care what other people thinks and i don't care what the bp fans think. if someone ever tell me that i won't make good money with certains snakes OH WELL that's fine with me. anyway good post tom. thanks for sharing about how you feel about this.

Related to the work with what you love comment; I recall a time this guy came up to my table and asked what my problem was. Seems I was selling Baird’s rats for $50 each when he couldn't give them away. Funny thing is I sold out early every year with these and now vivid is selling nice locality Bairds for over $100! Quite simply, love/enthusiasm for what you are doing is contagious. As long as you balance your production with the amount of space you have to hold neonates and the amount of marketing effort you are willing to put into responsibly moving them you should be able to get reasonable prices for well bred and cared for neonate.

Funny thing about Vivid is he is one of the only guys who has raised pricing on a few of his animals and still done extremely well. This goes back to what I was saying about not paying too much attention to market pricing. Some people will pay more for quality and or customer service regardless of being able to find very similar animals cheaper. Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

I agree 100% but it is hard to do if you're just starting out, have no name for yourself and are sitting on 400 neonates! Way too many people jump into this thinking it’s easy. This is a complex market and it takes some time to fully appreciate the niche one might fill. Even once you've figured it out things often change. Before I had kids I could maintain a collection of over 150 breeders. Now that I have hyperactive 3 and 6 year olds to chase after all I can give time to is about 24 breeders and at peak season even that can be challenging.

Tony, I can relate to that. I have three kids and a house full of herps too. Time is definitely a luxory I don't have much of. In a way I think that Vivid is a good example of perseverance in a tough market. I'm one of the newcomers to this market, but I do see a good side to this competitive market as well. Many fly by night, so called breeders, become dicouraged easily and do dump their animals for rock bottom prices. Which does have a short term effect on market value. The breeders that are in it for the long term, such as Vivid, still do have a market advantage in their experience and reputation. Almost like a brand name if you will. Emerald Tree Boas have gone through a similar market change. In the late 70's, early 80's Tony Nicoli was getting Emeralds for $25 a piece, and you couldn't give them away. Back then there was no differentiation between Northern Emeralds and Amazon Basins. Now the market has grown, for many reasons, and Northerns go for $300 and up and you would be hard pressed to find an Amazon Basin for under $1000.
Now that the market has recovered Tony Nicoli has made a brand name for his animals, and because of this has a huge market advantage. I'm not an economist, but the way I see it, if you are in it for the love of the species that you are working with, in the long term, your nich in the market will reflect it.
-Phil

Very well Said Tom! As you know i agree with you 100% on this topic. You also know that when it comes to selling my offspring i stick as close to my asking price as the market will allow.

I realize the ball python market is rather annoying, but your complaint is not really a new issue in the hobby. Think back to when albino ruthveni hit the market for thousands of dollors each & then 2 years later you could not even give them away! The same can be said for many many many other types of corns, kings, and milks..

I say keep the animals that you like, maintain a quality collection & worry about selling the stuff at the end of the day. Your hard work and dedication to your animals will pay off and there will always be someone that is willing to pay a little more for top quality stuff. I know i will!

Talk to you soon! ~ Mike

Heheh, I KNOW I DID, and am eternally grateful that I did! All the c.b. animals I have acquired from some of you guys are the best I have seen.Most of you know I am mostly a w.c. locale freak and because I chose pickily, I expected large good feeding snakes that are a joy to maintain. I have not been dissappointed! Thanks Tom for the killer mbk's and cal kings, thanks Mark for the hypo floridana and the goini's,thanks Peter for the awesome easterns, Chris G. what can I say, the Thayeri are to die for, Matt, that poss. het lav. checkerborad speck is an eating machine and she will go next season for sure, and I am pleased with the bairdis that have recently come my way via Draybar, especially knowing the parents are a wonder to behold! There are a lot more that I passed on simply because I ran out of money, lol! There are several great breeders on this forum and I just wanted to take a minute to say thanks to you guys, and to some of you others with the best kings, get ready for me next year 'cause daddy got rid of all his curtain climbers and the cash flow should increase greatly!!!
Todd Hughes

Darn it Todd. You got some of Draybar's bairdi? Good score. Jimmy's adult bairdi are stunning. Sounds like you've picked up some quality animals this year. Keep me posted on those Greenville Easterns you got from Peter. My Greenvile female, which is a sibling to your pair, is eating me out of mouse & home.

Steve

My little male had a regurge and set him back about two weeks and the female passed him up big time! He is on track now but he really is small compared to her now. She also is an eating machine, but I think the females may be hardwired for that naturally. Yeah Jimmy has some awesome bairdi and i was glad to get them, I failed miserably in the field for target species, but got many animals knocked off my life list and paired up my west Teaxs splendida and subocs so I am happy, even happy enough to break down and get one of Mike's greybands, lol! When Zee gets back I will redeem myself in the field, but it looks like my c.b.'s are catching up to my w.c.'s! It has been a fun year over here and I even saw an erebennus Monday at 10:00a.m. getting a drink. Aaaaah, south Texas, gotta love it!
Todd Hughes

(Not to get off track...)I work with Louisiana pinesnakes, but I don't emphasize the price. It is a legitimately rare snake, protected in part of its natural range unlike a morph of a common species that will "rapidly" increase its captive population. They sell for what people are willing to pay. I don't think the price people ask guarantees purity in any breeding project or what the next guy will do with them. Gotta do the homework whether you want P.ruthveni or locality corn snakes that crossed Main Street in downtown Charlestown, SC. I have heard some people feel that way, but once its out the door it is out of my control. If I want to control who they go to, I have to do that work before I accept payment, and get to know the customer.
I look for integrity through someone's background/longevity, phone conversations, collection records, all of the positive signs of a dedicated breeder. If the breeder meets my criteria, price of an animal is (within limits of course) mostly irrelevant.

Something I read in an economics book once... if people won't pay what you ask for a product, there is something wrong with the price or the product. I don't know if that applies here or not, hahaha. If this is a problem people want to solve, gather up and discuss it. Make people want to put a 2nd mortgage their house for a collection of brooksi. Get the python people back into colubrids with some innovation.

Daveb

The Brooks market is just that- Brooks. It is only one “brand”. It was one of the easiest snakes to reproduce in numbers so it was always included on every breeders list. This was true back before there were such things as Pueblan and captive bred Mexican milks, Hondurans and so many versions of amelanistics. We are so spoiled today with all the choice animals available that the Brooks has to compete with all these other types that in the grand scheme are still new and exotic to some people. I just bought ghost Brooks that cost more than an emerald tree boa would from Strictly Reptiles here in my neighborhood. I have yet to see any ball python that was as gorgeous as a plain old non-amazon-basin emerald. There isn’t a Brooks as beautiful either. I bought them because that’s what I want. We are all in an economy where it costs a nice Eastern King to fill your gas tank. I think you have to love it and decide where your fun money goes. People making a living off this are probably few and far between. I like the idea of selling off your hatchlings to cover the cost of rats, contributing to conservation by making captive bred available and the preferred method for aquiring them over field collecting, and being an active member of the herp community. And that tease of working on a "few surprises". A hobby and a job are two different things, I say as much as you love your hobby- don’t quit your day job.

and tell us how you really feel.

Thak was great Tom!!

This part says it all, "If people do not want to care for the animals they produce or can not move as many as they thought, they should breed less snakes or throw in the towel. It is no wonder why the phrase "he is just in it for the money" has become a common saying in this hobby. I love money. But I love my snakes and give consideration to my customers and their future in the hobby."

So very very true.

Thanks Tony. I kind of feel as if our time has come, meaning a revived interest in colubrids and somehow they seem to be taking a beating like the Pythons are? It is a bummer Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Not sure about the time has come thing. This market is somewhat cyclical. I know one breeder who stays on top by walking around Daytona looking for what ISN’T there and then finding some and bringing them back the next year or two. When I first got into them thayeri were HOT then they cooled for several years now they are popular again.

That is a great point. The largest show in the world and look for what is not there. What a great way to stay ahead or at least be different.
Daveb

Tom, man you've said things I've thought and some...

I think another problem is that the "breeders" don't seem to be concerned anymore with refining a trait. "how do I make this morph better"... maybe a better looking mutation would increase the popularity?

I'll continue working with these snakes probably even when they become those $20 snakes... or to the point where i just keep them but won't breed them, because I enjoy keeping them (though they can eat you out of mouse and home... lol)

I've stated prior there are over 20 complex (2x 3x 4x) mutations that have not been done as yet this is another reason I'll continue working with these.

~Z
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Royal ReptileZ
Home of Bklyn's Finest Brooksi

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signature file edited 4/22/06; contact an admin.

Yup, another good point. Some will say they like a wild type Thayeri best,,,but for me I think a bright colored line bred one is the superior. You have to wonder if fear of inbreeding watered down the look of some morphs as opposed to made them better? It is kind if surprising that no one has a line of Hypo Brooksi that hold the red longer than others...or would that be a Flame???? Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

It is kind if surprising that no one has a line of Hypo Brooksi that hold the red longer than others...or would that be a Flame???? Tom Stevens
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Eight legs plus has some real nice flames that hold their color, in my experience.

daveb

Flame brooks with red heads hold their color best.

...about the whole "brooksi" market in the first place is that much of what is called "brooksi" today, would have been laughed at 15 years ago. A lot of adult breeder "brooksi" I've seen don't look any better than some of the ugly canefield Florida kings I've caught. I'm not really sure what "brooksi" is supposed to mean these days. With corn snakes, there are Okeetee corns and Miami corns, which are popular strains of normal corn snakes that represent a locality, and a particular look. "brooksi" used to represent both a locality, and a look, and now doesn't really seem to represent either.

The poorly known/documented history of the different morphs is also a bit frustrating. From reliable sources, I know that lavender albinos have been hatched from different Wild-Caught Florida kings on at least 3 occasions. However, it also seems that cal king has been bred into Florida kings in order to introduce this same gene. Nowadays, a lot of lavenders look like the real deal, and others have head/face patterns that seem off enough to indicate some outside influence.

It just comes down to knowing what I'm buying, and believing in what I'm buying. Until I could do that, I wouldn't pay a premium price, and I think a lot of people are like that.

I had mentioned these things[I am pretty sure I did anyway]. That real het for nothing Brooksi are rare, I could not find any while in Florida. Funny enough when I said I was from Texas they got all excited over Texas Rats.....the grass is always greener. Tx rats are not exactly popular here and Florida Kings are not paid much attention too in FL. I had hoped to score at least a pair so I could offer pure Brooksi. You are very right when you were saying some you see now are dark muddy snakes but still have the label attached. I think it is BS myself. If you are gonna call stock your selling Brooksi, they should come from adults with a considerable amount of yellow....as in comparison to the Okeetee comment...at least the ones that are not locale specific resemble the ones from that locale. If that makes any sense... Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

very good perspective Foxturtle.

Here is my consumer perspective. I'll start by saying that I've been actively looking for and inquiring about brooks for about 5 months now, ready to buy at anytime, and price has never been the main concern for me. instead of buying a brooks, after 5 months i finally got 2 bairdi rats because i got tired of looking for brooks and trying to find something unique.

first, other species are far more differentiated than brooks. the brooks morphs are all interesting, but the contrast between hypo, sulfur, peanut butter, jelly etc isn't dramatic. at least with cal kings or gopher snakes, there is an obvious difference between one morph and another that even a novice like me can notice.

sometimes with brooks it looks like the same old dog with a different coat! yet it is supposed to be some new morph. continued breeding and development of the morph lines will change all of this.

second, selecting a baby is next to impossible for anyone like me who wants to know what the adult will look like. the color change from baby to adult is dramatic, and works against this species (in my view, especially since those ugly brown babies all look the same).

third, some sellers don't know how to court a customer and sell. few sellers take the time to show interest in the customer and meeting the customer's needs. there are a few notable exceptions (eg., nocturnal tom and a couple others i've spoken with).

in too many cases, ads have blurry pictures, and email responses are slow coming and incomplete. in short, there is no customer focus.

having said all that. i am very excited about the potential of future breeding and will again add to my small collection at some point.

Tom

I appreciate the honorable mention. Ya see, there's people who take your perspective on Brooksi, and don't see as clearly as others te differences between the morphs...same goes for Ball Pythons....not everyone can distinguish them easily. The you have guys like Zenny, that go over every snake scale by scale and notice every little thing. Guys who work with Brooksi develop a knack for being able to pick out certain ones from a group that often turn out to be pretty much how they expected them to look like. To me, a regular Lav, Extreme Lav, and Sufur Lav all look very different from each other. I also see a lot of variation in Hypos alone. Then again it was probably best you chose the Bairdi as they appealed to you more and maybe eventually you will find a Brooksi that stands out to you. My bet says you will find one. Then you will get hooked like some of the other guys on here. Good luck with the Bairdi. Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

So your response to not being able to predict Brooksi adult appearance, is to buy a pair of Baird's ????

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Lloyd Heilbrunn

Palm Beach Gardens, Fl.

That's funny Lloyd! But I think he meant that some guys are selling those "metallic " ones which I believe all turn out very similar as adults. I like the ones with the gray heads too. That change they go through is really something else....I am going to have to get some one of these days. Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Haha, payback Tom, get them from me in a couple years! I love it!
Todd Hughes

LOLOLOL!!! I was thinkin'it but didn't say it! What a shock he is in for!
Todd Hughes

Its worse then that. People understand that snake breeders will breed their snakes. So if you develop a group(worse darn thing you can do) They know, you HAVE to drop the prices, as you have hets and all such, and a number of them. So with large clutches(something you strive for) you end up with a ton of animals.

So a smart buyer only has to wait a year or so and YOU Have to dump your prices.

If you were smart, you would not tell anyone about your projects, and surely do not tell them how many. Then sell a single animal then another, etc. Or because a poor breeder, then your offspring will be worth more. Sadly the better you are, the less your animals are worth.

But you have to be fair, you should not produce numbers when you market your kings. Something like limited addition prints

Remember, there are businesses that produce tens of thousands of colubrids, as in many many thousands, those pet shop kings are product of that. It does not matter what morph or type, all they have to do is plug it in and thousands are produced.

Sadly or as it should be, you should breed snakes because it amuses you and keeps you busy. After all, it does fill your time with something you like. Cheers

FR, your insight and experience are unparalled.

Posted by: FR at Tue Nov 21 18:51:34 2006 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

Sadly or as it should be, you should breed snakes because it amuses you and keeps you busy. After all, it does fill your time with something you like. Cheers

rainer, your post about red head hypos was better.

NO post but still LOL'ing.

Another thing i wonder about, what actually "is" the market for brooks? at least with dogs, cats and some other snakes, novices (like me) buy them as pets with no intention of breeding. although i have no breeding intent, there are still some very specific criteria which must be met before i will buy (for me they are exceptional docile and unusual beauty. for other people it may just be an impulse purchase with no judging criteria).

so i wonder if a lot of those people who buy brooks are doing so as breeding projects, which means the market is that much more flooded with snakes, and that much more limited with buyers.

in essence, i wonder if these snakes produced by breeders are also being bought by other breeders. for better or worse, there doesn't appear to be a "pet" market for brooks like there is for columbian boas, ball pythons, cal kings etc.

i've been wrong before, but thought this is worth mentioning.

Tom K

The idiot who walks into a pet shop would rarely pick a florida king.

Hi Frank, thanks for chiming in. Here's the thing though. I may have a lot of Brooksi, but I only have 1 pair per project with the exception of Hypos. This way I do not over produce. Another friend of mine has told me he has severly pissed people off at shows by not lowering his price for a stubborn pushy customer...and then handing the snake to a kid for free. Now that is love for the snakes, and not at all a me me me mentality some guys seem to have in the "race" to sell their snakes.

I feel that with Brooksi and all the variants and all the breeders working with them, It would not be surprising to see one or two new variants every year or every other year for quite some time. That is outstanding considering how soon people lose that effect of being really impressed with a new morph. However if the new morphs do not start off with a fairly high pricetag...or worse if customers play their sellers like fish on the end of a line and wait for them to give in to a cheaper price...we as colubrid breeders do not have much of a project to offer someone looking to get into sometihng not many others will have. This is what many breeders are trying to do, offer soemthing to a customer not many others have. This is why it is worth more than other morphs that many other people are already working with.

I know what you are saying, and that is by letting people know what you have you are setting yourself up for a flea market approach with haggling and offers lower than you have things priced. I will not over produce anything, though I am happy to say I usualy do get above average numbers of eggs from my females...but I do not have large groups of any one particluar morph. This is part of my goal. To produce a nice amount of snakes from one female, as opposed to two average size clutches from two females. This takes up less room and its less work for me caring for a smaller amount of animals. Sometimes I get shot down if oen snake will not cooperate....but I seem to be doing OK so far [knock on wood]

The year I produce too many snakes...I will give some breeders the following year off and raise those animals and hopefully still get my asking price if not more. I also try to include the fact I will be there for customer service after the sale to justify my prices. I bought some snakes from a breeder one year and later found I could have had the same animals elsewhere cheaper. Irritated at first...I was feeling down about the deal. Later on when I realized this guy was willing to spend a lot of time answering all my questions I realized that it was worth the extra buck to have someone like him who was experienced with that particular snake to be there for me if I needed help.

So I know my rant can be looked at many different ways, but I think of all the snakes out there, Brooksi have so much potential wiht a lot of room for a lot of people to not only enjoy them, but to make a buck too...and doing it without pulling the rug out from underneath their customers feet. As chances are, the snakes they buy into will not be a dead end project, but will continue to offer new possibilities..all within the single type of king....Floridana. Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

The thing is Tom, you are looking at(rationalizing) these things thru your eyes and your eyes only. Unfortunately, other eyes see things differently.

While you think these morphs are all different, they are not to other people. From my eyes, there is nothing you can do with colubrids that has not already been done with one species or another. I understand you do not see it that way, but I bet most others do.

IF someone were to ask me what would be the next trend, i would say, nothing to do with color and pattern. The reason is again, all colors, lack of colors, arrangement of colors, has already been done. The next trend will most likely be something we all thing are gross, like two headed snakes, or dwarfism or giants. Something physical. But hey, that is only a dumb guess.

If you want to make money breeding snakes, you better find a new "different" species. Then don't tell no one.

If your really interested, I can go into the same problems as these that happened decades ago. Long before the internet. But still the same things happened. The same things were whined about, loss of market, drop in prices, etc. Unfortunately, its not new.

But yes, its hard to not be rewarded for your hard work.

I believe you Frank. Honestly I have done well with just about every type of snake I own. One exception would be Womas which many others produce babies from with ease. For me? I have yet to get a single egg LOL. I do get asked often for recomendations as what is a great snake to work with, and often people are worried about making thier money back. This even applies to snakes that are fairly cheap. I have had success I am content with from snakes that cost me any where from 50 dollars for a pair to 1500 a pair. I am only trying to help others see that with some luck and skill they too can not only enjoy the snakes but sell babies and get a little cash out of it too, many people dream of this and I am lucky to have things as I do. It is very hard t give someone advice these days, as they see the classifieds and get scared as it seems some are selling what they're interested in for cheap...and that shows them that it is not a sure thing.

This is what is sad about the discussion. What in life is a sure thing? Why must people be so worried about this making a HUGE profit. Any money made from something you love is a phenomenal bonus to the effort you went through to raise snakes and then see them produce babies. I did not set out to be where I am now from day one. I just seemed to have a knack for it so I went with it. Many who love snakes seem to come to a decision they will get together some cash and start a huge project as they're already convinced they will make money before they even own the snakes. Apparently many of these types fail and those just may be the people who sell what they produce cheap out of frustration and become what someone had mentioned as the "fly by night" type of guy that is there one day and gone the next.

I have been asked "how do you do it?". I didn't try that hard and with patience and some work I now have a collection I am proud of that so far has done very well for me. What some may not realize is I have taken some hard hits and was very let down with some things too....it is not all peaches and cream over here.

Just to be clear I am not expecting any morph of Brooksi to be the next big thing. I just think that for a snake where even a new morph is within a price range many can afford that they have a lot of potential to keep people interested in them. I could be wrong, but a few years back I remember considering buying some Bairdi. I didn't see many people paying much attention to them and I passed. Recently it seems they are becoming more popular. Things just happen that way sometimes. Coxi were also on my wish list. I put it off for years waiting for a price drop....they didn't drop, and other similar snakes are now available and I could have alread gained some experience with those and had the confidence to spend a few grand on them. Oh well...can't breed em all. I am happy, and really love my collection. I just started this rant about the Brooksi because I feel they are still a good choice for all levels of people wanting to breed snakes. As always I really consider your replies and appreciate you and everyone posting on this thread. Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

!
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Genesis 1:1

Let it flow, Frank, you've been awol too long!
Todd Hughes

Cal Kings are my favorite because they are the first snake I ever succesfully bred - as a teen, from wild caught snake.

I also bred Pacific Gophers, but I'll less attracted to them now. I like the pink bellied pacific gophers, and I really like Baja (aka Cape) Gophers - I'm going to be getting a pair of cape gophers.

But in all honesty - Cal Kings are one of the uglier members of getula IMHO.

Brooksi are the best - I remember seeing vivid yellow adult brooksi at the East Bay Vivarium as a teen and wishing I could afford one. To the best of my knowledge, these were normal brooksi - not morphs. There's a good possibility they were wild caught too.

It seems that with all the brooksi morphs, no one is breeding for the brooksi that I originally fell in love with, they are breeding for the best representation of their morph - which sometimes don't seem to have any yellow in them at all.

Niger and Nigrita and Splendisa and Holbrooki are also more attractive that typical Cal Kings. Easterns - the "South Georgia" Easterns that some people breed are absolutely stunning. I'm not really a fan of the standard chain eastern.

Anywhoo - I'm going to get into brooksi, quite possibly next year - we'll see what room I have for them, but I would really like to get into brooksi by buying young from a pair of those vivid yellow brooksi like I remember. It may be possible to selectively breed for that from the morph lines by buying hets and breeding for normal instead of morph, but with how long it takes to know if you are going to get what you are after, it is difficult to determine which offspring should be held back for future breeding.

Anyway - I agree that it is a little bit disapointing that Cal Kings are favored by so many over brooksi, and I'm guessing part of it is because a lot of newbie materials identify Cal Kings as an easy to care for snake, which is generally true.

Another part of it may be that their popularity helps spread them. My little brother got his first snake in September - an Okeetee corn. Initially he wanted a Cal King because I have Cal Kings. I talked him out of it, showed him the corn snakes at the show, and told him to pick carefully - to pick the one he thought was the most beautiful. He ended up picking an Okeetee - IMHO the best looking corn at the table (we only looked at one table - wanted to buy from a vendor regionally close to where he lives).

Anyway - I hope Brooksi does pick up more popularity in the general public, and (selfish) I hope someone starts breeding Brooksi like the Brooksi I remember.

I like the Peanut Butter morph as well, though - so I might settle for that next season. If I have room after buying the S Ga Easterns and the Cal Kings I want.
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3.3 L. getula californiae
1.0 L. getula nigrita
1.0 Boa constrictor constrictor (suriname, fostering/rescue)
2.1.2 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

Some points I would add, I have spent a lot of time field collecting and I can tell you a really great looking normal Brooks was always a great find. There are many dark almost melanistic looking ones right across the street from light ones here. You have almost zero chance of finding that “dream” Brooks unless you live here and go out a lot. Takes a lot of hours in bug infested sweltering humid mucklands. My secret was flippin heavy mats of cut grass along certain roads that had built up for a long time from the state mowers. You could find them in numbers in certain places, and still could. I can tell you it is not worth the work. You will find dark Florida kings where they should be light Brooks. Most are quite ugly and not worth anything, you can not sell them. The super light are a product of very rare specimens worthy of collecting and selectively bred to bring out the best it could be. If you saw a picture of most real 100% you would say those are not Brooks, but yes they are. They are not mahogany like the cane field kings- they are true Brooks. The captive beauties are stunning and deserve to command a fair price. It is true that hatchlings are like the ugly duckling that will become a swan. Maybe the answer is holding back and growing them up until they are sub adult nice yellow and then charging accordingly. The guy that can do that and offer sub-adult beauties can charge whatever he wants. How much could you get for a stunning pair of sub-adult normal Brooks? I’m just saying- your captive stock is a lot better than you’re giving credit. You simply can not get them that good anywhere else so charge for it.

“bug infested sweltering humid mucklands”... and pigs.

Here ya go- start looking. Or stay at home and have one delivered for $100.00 Its still a free country, but I don’t do that anymore.

Normal het-for-nothin real Brooks King. Above average field collected best-of-a-zillion, and really nothing special now is it?

Do you breed any normal hey for nothing brooksi kings that you have collected in the past?
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3.3 L. getula californiae
1.0 L. getula nigrita
1.0 Boa constrictor constrictor (suriname, fostering/rescue)
2.1.2 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

No but I hope some of the snakes I collected have resulted in a lot of snakes not being collected. Some of the selective breeding began right there in the field by not collecting what couldn’t be sold- the dark ones. It might have seemed all the ones brought in were nice light ones, but you only brought in what was wanted. Reality was, there weren’t that many nice ones. The hypos pretty much ended the demand for field collected, which I think is a good thing. You could compare it to Everglades rats too, same thing, very few were really nice orange like you are dreaming about when you think of Everglades rat.

I don't think collection from the wild is a bad thing if the collecting is done non-destructively and the population is sustainable.

For the pet trade, I think captive bred is better because captive bred specimens are far less likely to have pathogens that can be spread through the pet trade, and are far less likely to require expensive veterinary care.

My hookworm infected Cal King - paid for two floats. First came up negative, second one done months later when she just wasn't growing came up positive. Each float was $16.50. Then there is the deworming, the vet recommended two dewormings two weeks apart - those were $45 each visit. Now - I need two more floats done.

This was not a WC snake, I bought it from a herper from Alaska - but that kind of expensive treatment, treatment that is necessary but more than the value of the snake, is a lot less likely to happen with captive bred.

Yes - I value captive breeding, and unless it is a new species for which captive propogation programs need to be started, I do believe that the pet trade should be exclusively captive bred offspring.

But I don't have a problem with taking from the wild, even species that are captive bred en masse, as long as habitat is not destroyed and the population in the locale is healthy. Of course, local laws should be followed too with respect to collection.

Commercial collection I have a problem with - commercial collectors collect for the pet trade, and the pet trade really should be as captive bred as possible.

I'm sure someday I'll run into a small time hobbyist who has stock of the brooksi I'm looking for dating back from the 70s and 80s when they weren't too uncommon - I toyed with the idea of trying to go to Florida myself, but it seems the liklihood of finding what I'm after in the wild there is extremely low, and such a trip would probably be a waste of money.
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3.3 L. getula californiae
1.0 L. getula nigrita
1.0 Boa constrictor constrictor (suriname, fostering/rescue)
2.1.2 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

Ha collecting is a whole nuther thread...I field collected as a hobby that I really enjoyed. I liked being in the woods. I collected mostly to show off that I could find the stuff, and to pay for the gas. I was good at it like a fisherman good at catching fish (which I really suck at). I got real good at it and found I could really clean up if I wanted to, but I saw very early on it would be wrong to rape the environment for such silly sport. I got to the point where I had been there done that so some of the goals had been met. I sold big rattle snakes and moccasins to Bill Haast and that was like the end of it. I started taking more time stalking them and sitting for hours just watching them without running up and grabbing them. I had to get over that thrill to get to know the thrill of not catching them. It got to be better to leave them alone and not put them in a box and clean their crap. I got to this point just as the whole captive breeding thing really took off. When I wanted to breed Brooks it was because of the hypos. I appreciated what I was seeing from a field collectors point of view- they blew me away. I could never hope to find anything like that. Now I have ghost Brooks, whiteside and Goini. I find I am not interested in keeping anything that is a wild-type anymore. If I was it would be an Indigo, they are in another class from “colubrid” in my opinion. I also like diamondbacks. Very cool big snake, not at all what most people think. I think they might just be the coolest snake on the planet. Since I’m in Florida, I can’t have an Indigo and I don’t have a permit for a diamondback, so Brooks it is. I guess that’s my favorite along with patternless Goini. So that’s what I’ve got. If I could take you herping some time you could have your precious locality Brooks, but I’m warning you, you might be disappointed. Plus you will get sweaty, bug bites, spider webbed, scratched, sun burned, etc. but you would probably have a good time!

Upscale, you are talkin' my language now! I don't mind the bug bitten, spider webbed, sweaty stuff and couldn't be disappointed unless I couldn't flip at least a skink or toad. It is the thrill of the chase and now with digital cams I find a lot of stuff makes it home to share with all without the mess to clean! I am still more interested in locality stuff versus the morphs but some of these snakes are bending my thoughts towards them! I still am an outdoorsman so I would say for me it is about providing some of those "plain old looking animals" one generation removed from the wild. I will not sell my w.c.animals for anything, but their progeny will be up for those who understand. I will be comin' your way sometime so leave the porch light on, lol!
Todd Hughes

Yes- the thrill of the chase! Exactly. It would be great to meet some of you guys on here and spend a day herpin. I am fortunate to have lived in s Fla in a time when it was literally a zoo without bars. When I was a little kid in second grade (1968-OMG!) I use to take these big college kids who were down on spring break for “nature walks” like a little tour guide. We manged a trailer park back then. I would take them to see alligators and there would always be an armadillo, raccoon, fox or something that would get them all excited. If you remember the Ron Ely Tarzan with his little side-kick “Jai” or whatever his name was, I was “Jai” to those college kids. They thought I was the coolest kid. To stay on the Brooks subject sort of, I will never understand why Indigos, which basically occur from Florida up into wherever their range ends, it is huge massive range compared to Brooks, Everglades rats, and so many others with a range that really is being totally wiped out in some cases. They protect the one with the biggest population. I guess some of these “ssp” aren’t officially recognized so don’t count. Maybe it was total luck, but I caught every snake in the field guide for my area and some that were not suppose to range that far south except a simple coachwhip. Have never even seen one! I’ve seen panthers, bears, otters, eagles you name it, and so to me the darn coachwhip should be the endangered one! I’m big on conservation because I have seen such massive wipeout of habitat here. My childhood experience is very hard for others to ever experience again, which is sad to me. Captive breeding is crucial, but so is replenishing those lines every now and then from fresh genes of known locale. Field collecting for that purpose is justified in my mind when you are talking about taking one or two, they aren’t that rare yet. I’ll just bring a camera. Man this is a way long rant, sorry. Subject dear to my heart I guess...

Awesome rant and I agree totally! I mean, where did they come from to begin captive breeding and a new line injected into your c.b. projects could do many exciting things! I would breed the w.c.'s together and produce c.b. from captive bred then raise the babies for the injection into my established lines. There is nothing like experiencing the total picture imho!
Todd Hughes

I couldn't agree more. Though I haven't bred any of my WC snakes --- yet, there's nothing better than seeing where they came from, and experiencing the sakes natural environment first hand.

reako45

I don't know, I see pictures of hot, humid, bug infested habitat like that and wish I was there hunting it right now! Of course, I'm more of a fieldhunter than a snake-keeper anyway.

I have heard that there's a particular region of the canefields that will generally produce brighter kings than anywhere in Dade County. Of course, for one reason of the other, even with repeated trips to the canefields, I never seem to get around to hunting this area. Oh well, maybe next time.

You can cry and moan all you want about the price of your snakes but why would any breeder work with another breeder to "hold prices"? Are you trying to sell snakes at a fair price or are you trying to collude with other breeders to get your maximum profit at the expense of your customers?

Last time I checked this is a free market economy and not a command economy. You were not forced to breed snakes for a living; you chose it.

The problem you will have in trying to make a living from snakes or even trying to "hold prices" is that most people (like me and many others on this forum) do this for fun. We do not need to make money from this so we sell the babies for what we can get.

"What we can get" translates to "Market Price". Market Price is not what YOU think the snakes are worth --- it is what other people will pay for them.

Since most people breed snakes for fun and only use the money from the offspring to buy new snakes, cages, or mice --- it is pretty easy for them to drop their price if the snakes do not sell quickly. I do.

That makes it hard for someone who tries to earn a living selling snakes. Very hard. I consider any business venture to be risky and hard due to many reasons: making money selling snakes is made even harder because most of your competition has the same stuff as you but DOES NOT CARE about turning a profit.

Don't get angry about the above paragraphs. I am just spelling it out the way it is --- not the way snake breeders "want it to be".
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Peter Jolles
East Coast Colubrids
www.eastcoastcolubrids.com

First off, do you know I do this for a living? My income and where it comes from is nobodies business. If I want to bring these valid points to the attention of the forum I can and will and I did. Just ebcause you are the type who insists money has nothing to do with why you breed snakes does not mean that any others who hope to make cash are any less entitled to their opinions on here.

If you'd really consider what I had tried to point out and especially compared it to what happened with Hondurans you may see that in the past some people have made a fat profit only to take the very snakes that produced the babies they sold for high dollar and sold them cheaper than they sold the hatchlings a few short years later...in other words they cared only for themselves and thought so little of the snakes they got rid of them. A few of us have already said on this forum we have no intention of doing that. That we'd keep Brooksi wether they make money or not.

I don't understand why you have seemed to change a little Peter, you used to be the calm sort of type and you seem a little defensive. I price things as I feel they should be priced and if they take 10 times longer to sell than the people selling cheaper than me so be it. Some people who come here are looking for help in deciding which direction may work for them...obviously I like Brooksi and won't sugarcoat my replies with fiction inspiring people ot buy them knowing they may not be the best investment. They may not make much or any money...but I like them so I have covered in this post pricing on new morphs which I think could be approached in a way that until recently seemed to work just fine. A fair asking price to begin with which steadily declines and what people found to be an acceptable rate. So now all snakes should start low, and eventually be what...$20? It is not uncommon for a nice snake..morph or not to be $100...maybe even a few hundred. So people can name thier own prices....did I say they shouldn't??? I don't think so.

I only used Brooksi as an example as these snakes have a lot yet to be seen in combining morphs to make new variants. You know what cracks me up is people warned me not to get into Pits years back. They said nobody likes those and all that nonsense. I have made a nice chunk of change off them and kept getting more of them and to date have done extremly well with them and these are from snakes that are not new at all. They're considered somewhat common. So please don't get all mad. I thought we were cool. I thought this thread had a lot of good points made by everybody and gave some food for thought. You don't have to agree with me. But I think I am right LOL! Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

I don’t think Pete was getting personal but his point that there are a lot of hobbyists in this that don’t NEED to get a return on their investment is a valid point and one that should be considered in developing a business model.

That said, I personally think many are being a bit disingenuous when they say its just a hobby when they keep above a certain number of BREEDERS. I love snakes but caring for hundreds of neonates is real work! Add to that marketing, packing, shipping, tracking shipments, doing shows …….. Man, nobody does that for chump change unless they haven’t thought things out you can make more money cutting grass.

Tom, Tony is right --- and I did not attempt to "attack" you personally in my post.
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Peter Jolles
East Coast Colubrids
www.eastcoastcolubrids.com

So we can ENJOY breeding snakes because we like to, not because we HAVE TO! And if we make money from a new morph once in a while, great - if not, who cares? I won't lose no sleep at night (One BIG reason why I'm stuck overseas in the first place: GUARANTEED MONEY!!!)

It's like gambling in Las Vegas: We go there for DREAMS/amusement not to make a living or get rich. I hope nobody on here plans to go to Vegas believing that there is NO WAY that they will lose! If they did, then about 99.9% of those would be going home afwully disappointed (or divorced, lol)!
So anyway, I'm going to Vegas soon, but only to have a little fun, not to get broke and sell my house lol!
Meanwhile I will continue to breed a few snakes, only because it is enjoyable, not so I can get broke and sell my house...

But as far as brooksis are concerned: I'm NO competition. I only have ONE! And he's a pet ONLY (definetely not a pet rock)! But he's fun to have around: He eats my extra rats that the other snakes don't want, and he fears nothing! I think that guy'll eat rabbits if I gave it to him, lol!

Zee
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"I am an expert on everything, but I know so little and have so much to learn!" -Carsten "Zee" Zoldy-

Good Peter, I don't need any more enemies. I just think we got off track a bit. I think that if "normal" snakes can be $50 a pop or more then the morph world can expect to see something no one has ever seen before cost 10 times that. Then as I mentioned a steady decline is to be expected. You'd be surprised how well a person can do selling snakes other than the highest priced whateveryou have out there....while all the doom and gloom comments are common people who know me and who have especially seen my collection can tell you I crawled to get where I am and I am very content. I am also a stay at home dad recovering from another business which funneled on me. Keep in mind I have over 40 hours a week of my time spent working on nothing but snakes. Sometimes a lot more than that and most people think it shows in the quality of my animals. Hope you had a good holiday Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

the internet made an already very small market even smaller it allowed every pete,dick and harry the ability to sell offspring nationally, then when it was shown money could be made everyone who ever kept/bred snakes jumped on that money making bandwagon, and sadly i feel it will just continue to be another cut your competitions price at any cost dog eat dog commerce. consuming ssp. and morphs as it goes.
i still beleive(hope) quality will prevail over quantity and will just concentrate on producing quality and will simply keep or give away my excess babies and eventually,hopefully i will get into the retail market for what i produce.which actually dictates the wholesale market prices anyway.
but as a whole the market is destroyed by big breeders producing more than the market can handle and then dumping them for pennies. our(small breeders) only hope is quality and species that are difficult to breed, and some backbone in the pricing not only for the good of themselves but for the good of all,its called an "established market price" something thats done in the production of everything! alive or not!!! for whatever crazy reason its not done with snakes which imho sux, in snakes its commonplace to fork over big dollars for a particular morph only to see its marketvalue radically drop in a year or twos time,sometimes within one season! because big breeders bought the numbers to mass produce them, i gotta admit mass production of snakes makes me a little sick,but to sell them for any cost really disturbs me,look at any other animals mass produced for any reason and there are established market prices set for many many many reasons. poor example but look at cattle breeders there is competeive pricing amongst the breeders but theres also a clearcut price for retail and that line is never crossed and the product in this case the cow is not effected in anyway(carewise),im not sayin cows are snakes, but, is a breeder who produces 1000 snakes a season taking as good of care of babies as a breeder who produces 20? and if so why is that? would an established market price fix that? if that happens???
i dunno
quality is our only real hope in getting top dollar and really like with the cows should be our first priority!,,,,,,,thomas

Every hatchling is going to have to eat about twenty pinkies before you finally sell it. Maybe I'm off so adjust accordingly. Whatever it costs you to produce those mice plus your labor (which I think alot of you guys are
giving away for free) is the absolute bare minimum. If you are heating them, medicating them, loosing some, etc you are quickly breaking even and not paying for your mouse colony. You have to do the math and make a little money or you are simply a hobby breeder. The pet trade is the real market place for bulk sales, as you noted Thomas. They do determine what they are going to charge and what they are going to pay. The pro breeder knows if he can supply them at that price and make a profit. If he can't, someone else will. Those breeders who are dealing with the faceless corporate customer may have to shave a few pennies here and there, maybe their hatchlings get NO pinkies before getting shipped off. I don't think the regulars here want any of those hatchlings either. We aren't buying our stuff at the corner pet shop. Those are going to be the mass produced black and white Cal kings and etc that us uppity serious kingsnake breeders are probably way past producing. And we all know that 99% of those pet shop snakes are going to die in the first six months. Same for the Burmese babies, boas, turtles, fish heck darn near everything a "pet" shop sells. At least the people buying pairs from kingsnake.com classifieds have the intention of keeping them alive until they can reproduce. I think everyone who posts here is more concerned with quality (sometimes confused with purity) that is why we pay for shipping and selectively buy. I would like to think we are the elite keepers and nothing at all like the typical pet store customer. They are going to be the future customers here after getting sickly dying snakes from the pet shop. Some of them will maintain the interest and seek out your higher quality stock after they wise up a bit and get past that newbie stage of impulse buying and first snake failure. Then the next crop of newbies and farmed hatchlings will be endlessly repeated again next season. To you producers of quality snakes- get your price for them! There are dreamers and tire kickers in everythingthat costs a few bucks. Comes with the turf when you advertize to the public at large- you gotta charge for having to deal with those time wasters too.

what i was trying to say about cows
is anyone producing cows for market tries to produce the best for top dollar, they are not concerned with being price cut by another breeder as there is established market value price in place even for the lowly ones a market is set and its illegal to sell for under XXXamount,,thus encouraging quality and establishing a market,"FairMarketValue"FMV
this is done with cattle,dogs,cats,fish,produce,etc.etc, i firmly beleive snake breeders would benefit from something like this as do all the cattle and many other types of breeders/producers,but maybe snakes are.!.with colubrids maybe their "FMV" is 10bux each or 20-30 per morph,maybe its more? but if it was "established FMV price" it would imho certainly help all involved.snakes going from thousands to under 100 in 2-3years time(hondurans,nelsons,etc)is really sad, and FMV wouldnt stop that but slow it down some yes,(hopefully anyway) personally id gladly even pay dues as a breeder to be part of such an organization but the setting/establishing of prices would have to be influenced by national retail pricing and by someone w/nothing to gain and then perhaps voted on within its members and this FMV price may/could/should also influence a persons decision to breed snakes and for what reasons(like gettin rich!).it would change year to year as all markets do,but just establishing it would be the first step.
also imho all hets 100%, doubles,triples,etc.should fetch the same price as the morphs maybe a little less or they should be released as unknowns for normal prices or cull them,this imho is what has killed and continues to kill the morph market watch the balls pieds have went from 10 to 5K in 5 years to think of how many pieds will be produced in the next 5years is staggering will a FMV then be established??will it help?hurt? look at whats happened to lucy tx.rats,hondos,nelsons,calkings the list goes on,will it ever stop?would an established market helped?prolonged their drop in price??what happened to the thought of paying more for something BECAUSE it was a morph?(ok now im ramblin)
all in all it could be done and would imho benefit all ,HA, but then again so would world peace,,,,,,thomas

I really don’t see why anyone should balk at paying $85.00 for any captive produced snake. If someone is selling the same thing for $25.00 you should logically assume they have not even fed the thing and they know if they don’t sell it soon they have to feed it or it will die and they make nothing. Don’t buy fresh out of the egg snakes unless you know what you’re getting.
Here’s a story from the trading pit you might get a kick out of. Next year I will have forty het hatchlings from a project I am working on that I really intend to keep maybe five of at most. I am going to take the other thirty five and sell them to a wholesaler for probably 10.00 each. I am not into it to make money, I am working on something and I need to get rid of the extras. I don’t want a big hassle, don’t have time to box and ship and deal with a million morons (no offense public) so I take my 350.00 and that’s that. Two years later I will have forty gems I can sell for 350.00 each. I could write an ad and hype the project and find others that might want in willing to pay 125.00 to get in right now. But I don’t want the hassle. Maybe I should hold onto some and sell them. The wholesaler is going to price them at $30.00 each. Can you imagine I am selling mine for 125.00 each and I have to say to my customer, “Oh yea he has similar but mine are much better, here are the adults, known history, top quality bla bla”. Funny thing to me is I know those elcheapo are actually mine too! Same parents same siblings, same quality! HA HA. Actually, mine will be better because I will take better care of them than the bulk buyer for sure. But I will be competing with my own stuff! What a conundrum ! And still no world peace.

exactly how the market is destroyed.
Here’s a story from the trading pit you might get a kick out of. Next year I will have forty het hatchlings from a project I am working on that I really intend to keep maybe five of at most. I am going to take the other thirty five and sell them to a wholesaler for probably 10.00 each. I am not into it to make money, I am working on something and I need to get rid of the extras. I don’t want a big hassle, don’t have time to box and ship and deal with a million morons (no offense public) so I take my 350.00 and that’s that. Two years later I will have forty gems I can sell for 350.00 each. I could write an ad and hype the project and find others that might want in willing to pay 125.00 to get in right now. But I don’t want the hassle. Maybe I should hold onto some and sell them. The wholesaler is going to price them at $30.00 each. Can you imagine I am selling mine for 125.00 each and I have to say to my customer, “Oh yea he has similar but mine are much better, here are the adults, known history, top quality bla bla”. Funny thing to me is I know those elcheapo are actually mine too! Same parents same siblings, same quality! HA HA. Actually, mine will be better because I will take better care of them than the bulk buyer for sure. But I will be competing with my own stuff! What a conundrum ! And still no world peace.
,,if your not into for the money then how come you say in 2years you will have 40gems for 350each?????why not simply cull the ones your not keeping?or give them away to other hobbiest? if a simple reccessive trait showed up in our ficticious cattle farmers stock that improved their market price by 200% would the cattle farmer really sell those het.cows?to anyone?at any price? its not really a conundrum, its a decision thats got to made by anyone producing animals and if its simply for love of the animal then money NEVER rears its ugly head.
,,,,,,thomas

Hope you got that it was tounge in cheek example of your exact conclusion- how the market is destroyed. There are a lot of breeders who are not willing to cull or are willing to dump those breeding project extras as in my example. Basically, the market it is all about the money, isn’t it? I think that scenario plays out and also results in poorly documented origins of things that are het for who knows what that leads to that dreaded misrepresented animal getting into your collection.

...the opposite is true...That is, the bigger guys are selling at HIGHER prices than the little guy. A no-name guy may feel he has to lower his prices to compete with the big boys and get at least a small piece of the pie.
Why should we be surprised at all at low prices anyway? Isn't it what I'd rather pay? As a seller you want high, but as a consumer you want low??? Right?
What has surprised me in the past is that when I raised prices at a show (originally on snakes I really didn't want to part with), they sold faster! It has happened lots of times since. What the???
We sell/give away healthy babies to someone, give them detailed accounts of how to feed, clean, cycle, and breed them...and then gripe when they produce healthy babies and do the same???
Has culling ever crossed anyone's mind?? Not even the hets???
I don't/won't but maybe if there are fewer "cheap" routes to all the morphs, there'd be more $$ for those who are looking for it??
Remember that in the haste to be "the first out there" with a new thing, you are also the first to be generating your own competition. How can you sell to only those that are keeping one as a pet and not breeding them? Pet shops? They want even lower wholesale prices.
Many of us have at one time or another bought entire clutches or collections from someone at a low price only to sell off all but the best to add to our own collections/breeding colonies. The best of both worlds.
It seems that time is one thing that can be your friend and your enemy here, huh? Impatience (no thanks to the internet) makes us expect results in a flash. Yet much of this whole thing would not get off the ground without all our lightning quick info-sharing and little would get done if we had to wait.
I'm rambling now...sorry...
:Mark

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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

mark,

great ramble that adds glue to a lot of the other posts.

that little eastern is a pig. i have a jillion small pinks in the freezer (they're all his now), he will put away 5 each time he feeds. hasn't grown much longer but is certainly wider. he'll be a clean, good looking brute and i will have pics ready in about a year, hahaha.

daveb

very true mark, but picture this, small breeder big breeder at a show only 2 there with a particular morph wholesale price as dictated by this and other websites,wholesalers list etc is say between40-60 each, the small breeder only had one clutch say 6animals but the big breeder had 4 clutches and has over 25 babies availible the small guy puts 50 on his babies only to see folks walking by with the other guys morphs and when asked what they payed 25 bux!,the opposite scenario could also occur, but who really wins? i beleive a happy medium can be had and shared by all. this could be established very easily within a breeders association which inturn could/would establish a fair market value,but i know im dreamin,,,,,,thomas

Thomas, I was not offering up any answers to anything...just observations. I always get interrupted by something mid-thought
Anyway, I doubt there will ever be anything like you describe (breeders'unity)
Remember too..that many "fly under the radar" as far as being full fledged businesses.
:Mark

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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

I hear that Mark. I often sell things just as fast or faster when I have a more expensive price than market. Some people are not as concerned with the price as others. I was really trying to stress "new" morphs. Even new hets. The fact that some people are looking for something not many others have...and it seems as of late that these uncommon snakes have not had a chance to even reach the public eye and already their value is diminished.
I recently spoke ot a breeder who has one of the same projects as I have,,,he has not even bred his snakes yet and already [ for a somewhat justifiable reason I have to ad] he is talking about lowering the price on that animal. I am thinking....he has not even produced any yet??
I do feel some people working with other reptiles are now paying attention to colubrids..I have sold some snakes to fed up Ball Python breeders this year and have noticed a change in peoples direction as breeders in general. I was trying to say we being the guys who love and already work with colubrids could possibly see an increase in sales because of the changing market and some people do not see this or do not care...so they take something fairly unique and sell it for the price of something common. Doesn't make much sense to me?
The other project I spoke to you about with the Pines...for me this is not a money maker type thing...but I feel something beneficial for all may come of it from my efforts. Maybe I look at things as long term...or I am thinking ahead just a bit more than some who do not agree with me. Seems some feel the entire snake breeding thing is played out and falling apart...while I see potential. I will just go ahead with things as planned and hope for the best Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

You know, I do get more people (many have returned to the hobby after years away from it) asking me, "where can I get a regular old cornsnake (or king) like we used to find around my house?"
or similar question.
I feel I will always have some "normal, regular ol'kings" and others because I like what mother nature started with in the first place too. The morphs to me are just kinda like Xmas presents when they hatch and are specifically for my enjoyment and a few others' too. I also like to try and photo them when I can.
Fully prepared for a Japanese friend to bicker with me over Cal kings again this year, I was pleasantly surprised when he simply grabbed them and went away happy. He even put some from '05 in a magazine.
If you are supplying a re-sale market, there's got to be room for them to make a buck too, I guess. I'm also guessing he makes a pretty good amount re-selling my snakes.
In the end, I'd rather they go to good homes but in many cases I can't control that obviously.

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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

This is true,,,,we can not control things as far as being sure every snake goes to a good home. But I bet you have said no to a potential customer that you did not feel was going to care for your snakes properly as I have too. This has not much to do with my pricing thing I started the rant over but maybe it does as not only do the snakes have to be the best quality, but the sellers should be know for being good guys too. Last year I said no to several people wanting Pines, one example was for a 5 year old kids birthday. I needed cash bad at the time too but right is right. Luckily many of my customers are now friends and they usually keep in touch. Sometimes I am lucky enough to even see pics of snakes I sold in previous years. Another bonus of working with snakes. I have also passed on snakes because they marked down so cheap...made me wonder if they had something wrong with them? I think there's room for everybody...I really do... but sometimes I see things going on that make me frustrated beyond words....in other words if I had a fat bank account I'd be buying up some of these cheap snakes like crazy and could see myslef doing great with them. Not an option for now,...especially with quarantine being mandatory. I hope you had a good turkey day bro ttyl Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

...that when you see one later that you sold/gave to someone
that it looks WAAYY better than when you last saw it??? ...and then you want it back!!!
:Mark

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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

I sold my keeper Hypo Sonoran last year to a guy who is afraid to send me pics. He thinks we won't be friends anymore after I see it LOL Tom Stveens
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TomsSnakes.com

I think that most of what can be said has been said better than I could in the many posts above. But, I will put some brief thoughts out there to consider.

I keep mostly milks, but have a pair of sand boas and carpets that I breed because I think they are cool. I think brooksi are cool to, just dont have any more room to spare.

The thing I worry about is that snakes, like the ones I produce, will become cornsnake cheap. I dont mind my nice tang. albino hondurans going for 300 compared to the 1200 they used to pull, like only two years ago. But when snakes become really cheap they become thow away pets, like goldfish at carnivals. We all care too much about the snakes we produce to have them become that. I hope that the prices stay high enough to discourage that, but cheap enough for everyone who seriously wants a cool morph to have one.

I have seen several breeders in the hondo market buy many of a particular morph (like snows) so they have a 2.10 group that can produce over a 100 eggs in as little as two years and then wounder why the market got flooded. This kind of thing reminds me of puppy mills, a direction I think we all should avoid going. When I got my dog I payed almost double what the breed went for in the local mall pet store, but I got her from a breeder who loved the breed and produce a litter or two of amazing pups are year. I think this is the way to go, produce a few and make it obvious you care. People will pay a little more for the quality.

Anyway, have a great thanksgiving to all......
Vinny

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“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859

Natural Selection Reptiles