Reptile & Amphibian Forums

green is such a beautiful color. especially the arizona green rats, green bush snakes and many others. however, it doesn't appear that anyone is trying to develop this color by combining 2 different species. it seems like fertile territory for some really interesting color combinations.

i'll post this in the hybrid forum as well, but thought maybe some of you innovative rat breeders have any information.

tom k

Senticolis triaspis, Elaphe (sensu lato) prasina, Elaphe (s.l.) frenata and some Gonyosoma oxycephalum have vivid green coloration. So if you're a chlorophile these would be great snakes to own. But I'm not sure what you want to breed together. Do you want to breed these snakes to other species to get their coloration into the mix or do you want to combine other snakes than these together to get the green color?

Let me start with the second case first. There are intergrades between black ratsnakes and yellow ratsnakes that are called greenish ratsnakes. I think the more desireable specimens resemble the striped yellow ratsnake pattern but instead of yellow they have a greenish yellow coloration. If you search the photo gallery for greenish ratsnake you will probably see some photos. I think there even may be some for sale on the new world ratsnake classifieds. So by analogy maybe crossing a yellowish snake with a blackish snake may give you a greenish snake. But who knows?

Now as far as crossing green snakes with other species, I'm assuming you would try to cross them with something reasonably closely related to allow for a chance of success at hybridization.
A recent taxonomic study by Utiger, Schatti and Helfenberger; "The Oriental Colubrine Genus Coelognathus Fitzinger, 1843 and Classification of Old and New World Racers and Ratsnakes (Reptilia, Squamata, Colubridae, Colubrinae)"; Russian Journal of Herpetology Vol.12, No.1, 2005, places prasina and frenata into Gonyosoma with oxycephalum and jansenii. According to the study these snake may (or may not) be closely related to old world racers (spalerosophis, hierophis, coelognathus, hemorrhois, etc.). So I guess you can try with those.
Other studies have analyzed the relationship of new world ratsnakes. The family trees I've seen show Senticolis as one of the more isolated branches on the lampropeltine tree. So this makes them related but not very closely related to the ratsnakes, gophersnakes, kingsnakes and the other smaller american familes (Arizona, Rhinocheilus, Pseudelaphe, Bogertophis). I guess you could throw one in with a corn snake and see what happens.

But I'm guessing (and this is my personal opinion) that whatever you got from these crosses would be less attractive than Senticolis and Gonyosoma.

But good luck.

Regards
John

There are G. oxycephala X G. janseni hybrids. If you do a search of this forum you'll find pictures. The G. janseni was a black specimen from Seleyar. I should point out that many suspect that these are not actually distinct species, but rather geographical forms of one species.

I keep both "species" but did not produce the hybrids. I'll see if the breeder has time to take some pictures of the hybrids over the holiday weekend.
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Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Jave local (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

1.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Celebes locale (Black & Tan)

these are a cross between Gonyosona oxycephala (redtail green ratsnake), and Gonyosoma janseni (black Salayar). As you can see they are hatched green, and in approx 6mo begin to radiate black from the insides of the scales. They retain this speckled look as adults.

This is a set of pics showing the janseni color change, which begins around 6mo.

All I can say is wow. How big is that guy/girl? Also it doesn't look like your getting actively mauled, what's the attitude? Are you breeding these in the near future? I'd love to add to my collection of ill tempered asian rat snakes. Thanks, Don

That's moon, my big girl. I have 2 more that may actually be slightly bigger than her at 7.5ft long. Its the females that have the potential to get very large, while the males tend to stay around 6ft. The males also tend to be a bit more high strung, but there's always potential for a hit.

Generally I don't get bit considering I have about 45 Gonyos all together, and alot of it has to do with how their handled. A snake hook is a must, but I've developed techniques of keeping and handling that minimize potential disasters.

To date I have captive bred 11 Sulawesi janseni, as well as an army of hybrids, and a few oxycephala, and I am planning to make a few of the hybrid babies available if your interested, but I'm going to hold off on the janseni a bit longer. Their so hard to work with as wild caughts that I want to make sure that the last 3 w/c I got a few months ago are the last w/c I have to deal with. The amount of care and medical treaments necessary to keep them alive and well is very time consuming and stressful, and I've seen a myriad of health issues over the past few years that have cost me a small fortune to diagnose, and attempt to treat. The nice thing about the c/b babies is that their trouble free, and some actually have good temperments! If your really interested send me a private e-mail and we can talk more. carciafreitas@yahoo.com

Freight

This is color change in the black jansen.

very interesting. just out of curiosity,it doesn't look like they handle well - posturing and being all puffed up. but i have no knowledge of red tailed rats, just admire them from afar.
tom

The blown up hybrid in the above posting is not a friendly snake at all. He actually comes out to get me, but that probablt has to do with the fact that it took 5 months of force and assist feeding to get him to eat on his own. I no longer have to do much of this, as I've developed other feeding techniques that work well with Gonyo babies. Many of my c/h adults, and c/b babies and adults have decent to good temperments, and even some of my w/c adults aren't so bad. I think getting them health (for w/c), and secure in their environment makes a huge difference, but their all individuals, so some are better than others. I really believe that the c/b snakes could be tamed and handleable if someone was willing to work with them giving them the space and respect they need.

Personally I don't feel they deserve the reputation of being demonic hellion snakes. I think their not for everyone, and their a bit misunderstood becasue their has been so little captive breeding success, particularly here in the states. I'm slowly, but surely changing that!

Freight

>>Personally I don't feel they deserve the reputation of being demonic hellion snakes. I think their not for everyone, and their a bit misunderstood becasue their has been so little captive breeding success, particularly here in the states. I'm slowly, but surely changing that!
>>
>>Freight

Freight, congrats on your success with these Gonyosoma. They are a very interesting species.

You're right, not everyone is interested in keeping them. They sure wouldn't fit in with my system. But they are very interesting nonetheless, because of their taxonomy, ecology, behaviors, etc. I believe they are much closer to the base of the family tree for ratsnakes/racers, than most other genera. Thanks for the pix and info, and good luck to ya'....

Terry

there is so much breeding going on to develop color morphs among species, and similar breeding (though much less) among hybrid breeders. it's just odd that with all the color and pattern options people breed for, green NEVER EVER comes into the mix.

i mean there must be something green that will breed with a leucistic rat, snow corn or something! nobody has thought of trying to develop green strips or spots or something.

i'm not a breeder but find it interesting that nobody has discussed this challenge.

tom

... Now that you've mentioned it...

I happen to own a pair of Albino Blotchless Yellow Rats (I'm not sure about the 'subspecies', but they are quite yellow) that I'd like to breed with my pair of North Carolina Greenish Ratsnakes. My objective here is to create a solid green ratsnake in the F2 generation. And even if the color turns out a little disappointing, at least I got rid of the albino trait.

Regards,

Herman Bronsgeest.

You have to look at the species being involved. If it were the right species, I'm sure the green would be developed.

The greenish ratsnake, Pantherophis obsoletus, was mentioned, but that's not a very popular form. Maybe if it were a greener green. The Great Plains ratsnake, P. guttatus emoryi, is slightly green sometimes. I think that's a nice color and can be used in breeding these western corns, but the western varieties aren't as popular as the eastern varieties, and the green isn't very obvious.

As far as bringing in other species that aren't bred as much, but are green, you have to consider what kind of hybrid you would be making. Let's take the western green ratsnake, Senticolis triaspis, for example. If you crossed this snake with say a corn snake, what would the hybrid look like? Would the green even show up? What would it's temperment be like? Would it be marketable? Would the offspring be able to reproduce themselves?

Most breeders aren't going to invest in something that's not proven, or doesn't stand a decent chance of success. For many, it's about the money. Heck, most breeders won't even take the chance on a species that's not terribly popular. I've been working with Elaphe bimaculata and E. dione for ten yrs. now, and just love these species. I'm still waiting for some mutations to come out, so we can make albino, melanistic, or hypo snakes, and increase the popularity of these species. Otherwise they're never going to catch on in the hobby, except with the more dedicated and adventuresome hobbyist. I've seen a "greenish" hypo dione, btw, in photos, and would love to get the chance to breed those.

I'm not sure the green coloration would mix well with other colors, all said and done. I think the nicest colored snakes are the pure green ones, not a mutated greenish color, which would likely be grayish or olive color. Hobbyists will eventually cross more different species, some of which might be green. It's probably a matter of time before we see some hybrids that have a green ratsnake as part of the equation. How about a hybrid from two different green species? Just my opinions and random weird thoughts...heheh!

TC
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Ratsnake Haven...researching ratsnakes since 1988

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