Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Dealers, etc to avoid, and asks on the forums, etc if they should purchase from a certain business or not.
This bill will effect your ability to get information, and legally effect those trying to help you by giving advice, it could make them criminals.
Maybe let your local lawmakers know that you dont want this to pass. Also for anyone who may report abuse of zoos, circus, and other public venues making money from animals, this can make you a criminal if it passes.

This language is so broad as to essentially say that if an animal rescue or others go undercover and learn of abuse that will occur, sends you a message asking you to contact the business because an animal is going to be held there in bad conditions, and you follow through by sending an email to the business asking them to not have such a cruel display and the business decided to cancel that display, then both you and the animal rescue can be fined, imprisoned, labeled terrorists and have to reimburse the animals owner for his lost income if he says that he felt sick to his stomach about the ordeal and be liable for all of the lost revenues of the business owner if he says he felt harassed by the number of emails.
This may sound absurd, because it is and that is the whole point. The bill is absurd and serves no real purpose other than to enable those who would use and abuse animals to do so with impunity.
AETA

Thanks for the heads up. This really upsets me, more than I can put into words. I'm no activist by any stretch, but it seems to me this is an infringement on free speech and to an extent the principles of a free market. In the last year or so I've cringed at the sight of conditions animals, especially big varanids are kept in by those trying to sell them. If someone is selling something that is going to die or is already ill, then consumers deserve access to some recourse. Now I can't tell someone not to buy a dying or overstressed animal? I can't write my local zoo about the poor conditions their whitethroat is suffering in ( I already did)? I love my animals, but if this is the way things are going, maybe owning monitors should be federally regulated. Question: Will changes in House and Senate leadership effect this for the better?

Don't even thing about having the feds regulate reptile keeping of any kind. Generally speaking, those nice folks in our government, do not know a thing about reptiles and could careless. So the simplist thing for them is to Ban the private keeping. You see, it will not effect them in any way. Sorta like swatting a fly.

The governement would reply on First zoos for advice. No offense, there are lots of really great zoo folks, but the official stance of AZA is to stop the private keeping of ALL animals. Yes, all animals, not just exotics.

Next they will rely on acadamia, which is totally seperated from reality of common(our) life. They too want animals out of private hands.

While both of these fine organizations use the word "conservation". They use it against us, the private folks. The problem is, they do not practice conservation anymore then the rest of us. Consevation is allowing animals to live in nature, on their own. Acadamia or Zoos(AZA) have no power or ability to stop development. No matter how rare something is, or this or that, the habitat will be destoryed in mans needs it for food or housing, or any resourse. Consider, acadamia can indeed identify a species as threadened, or endangered, but can to nothing to stop it.

Which leaves zoos to hold animals without habitat. The problem is, there is no space or funds to do so. Private help WILL BE NEEDED. Consider, holding two or ten of a species is not CONSERVATION. The day a zoo, a whole zoo is devoted to one species, then I will rethink my words. When three or four zoos only house one single species, then I will take my words back. Until then, they're no different than you. They house a few individuals of a species, thats not conservation.

ALso consider, buying land in other countries or even our country does not protect it. If other countries/people need that land, they simply take it. Oh, same goes for here.

Sorry for the rant, the point is, do not let our/this government, regulate these animals, that is unless you do not want them anymore. Cheers

I, for the most part couldn't agree with you more. I mainly referenced federal oversight out of frustration. I know most zoos suck and even sell animals to game farms for canned hunts. There's conservation for ya. If you are as opposed to federal regulation as you seem to be, why would you want the govt to take away your right to thrash bad dealers/keepers/animal enterprise? You of all people should be furious. (I'm not upset, just making a guess) Heck, you thrash people weekly who are a hundred times as well meaning as these institutions (albeit, with good intent, I assume), just a bit inexperienced. What if you trashed a photo someone posted for bad husbandry? What if this person was intending to sell the animal to another forum browser? You are not a subtle dude, and it wouldn't be tough to make a case that your comments caused personal discomfort or mental anguish. I'm not saying that a ethical person would attempt legal action, but what are ethics to a person trying to pawn off sick or dying animals to an undereducated, overeager hobbyist? What's to stop such a parasite from latching on to mean old FR? Espescially when academics and such, who you say would be given a positon of authority in such cases seem to have such disdain for you? Just some thoughts.
-Happy Thanksgiving

You may want to look into those canned hunt game farms. I looked into those years ago. They are more about conservation, then zoos. Many of these game farms, have bred and produced, many many many times more rare animals, then zoos have. They allow hunting of excess animals, and this supports the breeding stock. This is much like nature, only other wild animals are suppose to do the hunting. The excess offspring supports a natural enviornment. In this case, canned hunting supports the founder stock. I see this as a huge benefit. ALso, I do not shoot animals of any kind, I would if I had to, just don't have too. I respect an animal being wild and doing wild things. Could you imagine what it would be like to jump like a deer. Sorry mini rant.

The problem with zoos is they are mostly handcuffed. They cannot do anything with excess offspring. So they don't produce. In order to maintain animals, THEY MUST BE KEPT DOING WHAT THEY DO, animals reproduce. Not held and then at some unknown point try and produce them. On a small scale this works for monitors as well. Monitors kept properly reproduce readily(more then that) Of course, someone could have their monitor spayed if they did not want offspring, but I do not hear of this often.

Its not that zoos are bad, they are taskless and are not supported. To keep animals is to allow them to recruit, only theres no where for the offspring to go.

A zoos REAL job is to entertain the public and recieve money throught gate. They are also more about commerical kisoks(sp)then actual holding of the animals. This is from actual experience in zoo design.

Please consider, I was a zoo builder for many many years. As such, I recieved a totally different view of zoos then you hear from a zoo keeper. My era of zoo building should be called the Era of the waterfall, as all exhibitats contained waterfalls. Again consider, waterfalls are not part of most animals habitat. A few of course, not many. Waterfalls are for people. Cheers

Most zoos are pointless and are only merely entertainment for the general public who think a bearded dragon is an exotic animal, maybe to john in Fargo it is but to herp collecters they are a dime a dozen. Example a zoo in Africa has some endangered species of lion wich only a couple of thousand live in the wild but yet they are selling excess offsping(how could an endangered species have excess offspring)for $150 stuffed! The feds wont be able to do anything except make theses animals illegal, they have to much to worry about like importation of illegal aliens. People abuse their dogs everyday and there isnt much done about that. And if the feds dont care much about this countries most cherished pet what of our beloved herps. If you are caught mistreating any animal you will be punished, maybe just a slap on the wrist but it will happen if the abuse is severe enough. Pet stores sell sick animals all the time, I have bought(adopted) many sick reptiles from pet stores and my freinds could do it my family my kids my grands etc. There is never a short supply of these types of reptiles and never will be. No matter what new laws are made.

To call buying any animal from any retail or wholesale business, adopting it. If you were adopting and animal it would come from a rescue, from one that has a non-profit tax exemption, no matter the species it would have a set adoption fee.
I see the terms adopting, and rescuing being thrown around by way too many people, in fact when you spend any money to get an animal from a retail or wholesale business you are buying from them, supporting the profit, and promoting them to replace that same animal with a new animal, and to abuse it to make someone else feel sorry and buy it.

Hi SHvar, its very common these days for folks to call buying a monitor that they did not want, that was kept in poor conditions, an adoption. Which means, 90% or more of petshop monitors are being adopted.

I agree with you, I think adoption is something you do when you acquire a monitor from a rehab/rescue center, not a pet shop. Unless the petshop gave it to you to save its life(to rescue). If your purchased it from a petshop, that is not adoption it may end up a rescue. If you buy it for any price, its a purchase, no matter what the reasons. Cheers

For example with dogs (real tax exempt rescues) set a fee, say cost of fixing them (required before adopting them out by law), cost of shots, and a few bucks for keeping them and doing the adoption process (checking whether the person is in an apartment, or house, owns one of more other dogs, and has some history with this type of animal good or bad, and to make sure they are adults, and not animal horders). These fees are around $225-$300, shelters do a less stringent process, therefore $164-$200 suffices, then funded by donations some organizations almost give them away at $25-$50.
Notice no prices are set by breed or by species, so how many people would spend $164-$300 on a rescue nile or bosc, or water monitor? None, thats why I cant stand it when someone calls their purchase a rescue.
A good friend who does a reptile rescue had recieved a written apology from someone who adopted an animal after telling people on a forum that it they had rescued it. Why, saying that the new owner rescued it indicates that the real rescue was abusing the animal, not being the case, and the individual agreed to terms of the adoption (legal agreement). Also the individual made a public apology on the forums they posted it to. Im sure some petstores have fine print agreements in respect to buying pets also.
To claim the animal they bought or adopted was rescued is slandering the business or organization they obtained it from.

OK, sorry for the misuse of the word adopt, I said it because it wasnt an impulse buy and probably would have been by someone else. As far as I know there isnt any shelters wich rescue and adopt out reptiles in my area. As far as slandering a dealer I dont even know the dealer and dont wish to, its a known fact that pet shops sell sick animals and I knew the animal was sick and took it upon myself to adopt it because I could get it the proper care wich someone else might not be able or willing to. I apologize if my words are sometimes misunderstood but I am only giving my own experiances wich is not as extensive as alot of people in here. I know my post will be disected and when I send them prepare for the worse but sometimes Im surprised and caught off guard. Im just trying to do the right thing and any help or criticism I recieve Ill just have to take.

Anything, but I was giving an example of how using words like rescueing or adopting can get you into trouble when in fact all you did was BUY at retail price. When you BUY from a petstore (as you said, they SELL sick animals for a few reasons, they SELL them to get them SOLD faster because you feel sorry for them, and because its cheaper to let it be sick, and replace it with another $1 lizard rather than take good care of it and lose money on the deal). When you BUY them from petstores you are supporting them to replace that lizard with another to suffer in its place, if you do not, they may stop dealing with monitors and stock beardies, or some other lizard, in any case its best to let them die and not support the store that does this.
To say ADOPT is wrong, adopting means it came from a rescue or shelter, rescue means to take for FREE from a bad place and put in a much better place. Adopting as I said involves paying an adoption fee.
My favorite one is the reptile rescue at the Hamburg reptile show, they charge higher adoption fees for rare or expensive reptiles, yet low adoption fees for very common unwanted reptile species, to me thats still selling. Examples are argus monitors being more expensive than young alligators, or iguanas, and so on. If they could show vet paperwork to back up those adoption fees I could see some of the price.
It offends anyone who actually does adopt or rescue to see others claim to do so, when they are just BUYING. After all you dont adopt from a puppy mill, or from the petstore that sells puppy mill dogs.
If you are eating an orange dont call it an apple because it makes you feel better doing so.

Really I think thats all they had. I havent seen any pet shops in my area that remotely speacialize in monitors. I collect herps because I like them maybe someday I will breed them but that is yet to be seen. Right now even though Ive been collecting for about 8 years I dont feel ready. I really dont feel its important where I get them because Im still learning.If I ever do decide to start breeding I will most likely purchase a breeding pair from a reputable breeder.

And it sits and dies there, they wasted money, mostly caring for it, so they usually do not try the same species in place of that one, after all they learned from the first one, it wasnt profitable. They get whatever species they can sell cheap.
The WC reptiles such as bosc and niles, iguanas, etc are cheap and easy to get, they sell at decent prices, and fast to those who dont know any better.
Profit is what it is all about.
Buy real CBB reptiles from breeders, maybe someday enough will do so and the petstores will slow down selling thew WC, somehow I doubt it though.

I would say a high percentage are wild caught

Almost all petstores are bearded dragons, a few rare ackies, leopard geckos, etc. If its exclusively found in Australia its a sure bet to be CBB in this country.
The few rare petstores that sell a few rare CBB monitors are Proexotics, and East bay Vivarium, I wouldnt trust 99.9999% of the others.

i shiver when you call us a petstore : )

we haven't had a retail store in more than 3 years (and we had it open for 3 years. PE is going on 14 years as a company). the retail petstore customer is an entirely different type of person than the online/mail order customer, typically.

in the petstore, customers want cheap disposable animals.

online/mail order, they are more passionate hobbyists and collectors, willing to invest time and money into the animal.

there are exceptions, but it is the 85% of retail petstore customers that discouraged us away from walk in retail. just not fulfilling to sell "disposable" animals. a $100 petstore animal is "expensive". $100 doesn't even begin to crack the average animal price for mail order.

just to make the point SHVar, we are not a walk in retailer, and emotionally i hate to be grouped with them (i do like the folks at East Bay : )
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

At one time. But yes you guys are great to deal with, also very honest. The quality of animals you sell is second to none.