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ok i need your guys' help PLEASE

fighterpilot Nov 22, 2006 11:33 PM

I havent been around for a while because i put my snakes down to burmate a couple weeks ago. But there is one snake that is scaring the [bleep] out of me. She is an 06 and is having trouble eating. I checked today (i havnt seen her for a week and she was looking good a week ago) and i can see her spine! So i instently put her on heat took out some pinkies and mice tails and cut them up. I tryed force feeding her buit she wouldnt take it. now she is in there with all the parts. any advise?? her sisters are doing awesome they problebly trippled in size but its just this one.

thanks,
Dylan

Ps. here is a pic of them right after i got them (she is the one with her head sticking strait up and the white dot in the middle)

Replies (16)

FR Nov 23, 2006 09:40 AM

The key to pyros is, moisture. Nearly all pyros I have seen in captivity are in a state of chronic dehydration. Particularly babies.

Years ago, I produced generations upon generations of pyros, Plus studied them in the field. I sort of recieved the reputation of a local wild and captive pyro expert. I am not bragging, I am saying that to clarify the above.

Baby snakes are massively out of balance. They have a high surface to mass ratio. This is improved with size. As they grow, mass to surface increases greatly. This is why you rarely see baby pyros out and about. During the hatching season in nature, there are literally thousands of babie pyros in a few acres, but you do not see them. They cannot afford to expose themselves to air.

I bring this up because it directly effects the feeding responce and abilities of pyros(many snakes)

As an experiment. I tested something. Again years ago. A friend and I dicussed snakes and drinking water. The real fact in nature(here in ariz) is, most individual snakes do not normally drink water, not because they will not drink, but more because there is none to drink. In many cases, maybe only a couple times a year will there be drinking water. So they control their fluid levels by not loosing moisture thru their skin and gaining fluid thru their prey. Common with desert animals of all sorts, including some mammals.

Back to the experiment, I attempted to raise a number of pyros without ever offerring drinking water. I succeeded. But to my amazement, I also learned other things. When kept properly hydrated, they not only fed and digested prey better, but they acted like normal snakes, they would feed on anything, as in not picky. In this case it relates to captivity well, they ate pinkies(or any dang thing) from day one, without hesitation. They grew like rockets and had firm stools. Now this may seem funny but across the board, captive stools are of poor quality compared to wild stools. Please think about this.

The key to understanding how they do this is to understand humidity. In most cases in captivity, humidity is actually wet. We add water or wetness instead of humidity. In nature, our snakes do not like wet, they avoid it. They seek, dry and humid. This dry and humid is something of importance. In nature, our kingsnakes do not live in areas that are wet, but instead dry and humid.

Much like temps, snakes from the desert or not, use a range of humidity. Not a set humidity. So we see wild snakes constantly choosing different temps, we also see them constantly choosing different humidities.

The key to your non feeding pyro is, give it the proper(things it understands in its language) choices. Not heat, not wetness, but a range of temps and dryness and humidity.

Lastly, this is not so easy to do. In captivity, the concept of dry and humid is very very odd. How does that occur. In nature, snakes choose areas that are well drained. The water or wetness passes through the areas they live in, not staying in those areas. Humidity passes down when it rains, and up with it doesn't. For you field guys, AC catches humidity instead of loosing it to the air. Once AC drys out, snakes will no longer use it. No matter what the temps are.

Now consider, many people use a moisture box, but that is wetness. Unless you use something like moss and wring out the wetness, and it must be done several times a day.

The key in captivity is using water and seperating it from where the snakes live and most importantly not trapping the humidity causing it to return to being water. But remember the AC. Its easy. Cheers

fighterpilot Nov 23, 2006 07:39 PM

Thank you so much. I put her in a bigger cage with a heat pad. i put a bowl of water on the heat pad to make it more humid so i placed in a couple parts from a pinkie and she went over and ate a head. I also noticed she has shed that she never got off so right now in doing an old trick my friend showed me that has worked in the past. I get a thing half full of warm water and place her in it for 20 minutes. then take them out and place some somewhat rough surfaces in the cage. Within an hour they have the shed off. The water really loosens up the shed that has dried on. The only thing i am worried about is if she gets upset and regurgitates the mouse head.

Thanks again,
Dylan
ps. happy thanksgiving.

fighterpilot Nov 24, 2006 12:52 PM

It seemed like she would only eat the heads of the pinkies. So i took some frozen pinkies and cut off 12 heads and left them over night. This morning i looked and there were only 9. She looks 100% better from 2 days ago and it seems like that little bit of humidity really helped. Thank you FR

Dylan

FR Nov 24, 2006 01:19 PM

Your very welcome, I am glad I could be of help and good luck with those Pyros. They are one of my favorite snakes.

ECC Nov 23, 2006 08:23 PM

FR, How did you keep the Pyro's hydrated if you did not use a water dish? Did you keep them in a dry but humid environment? I guess we need to consider that snakes probably lose a lot of hydration just in the process of respiration if they are in a low-humidity environment?

I have used delicups with wringed-out spaghum moss and a small hole cut for years. They seem to like it.

Also, I have gotten into Rosy Boas and learned from Paul at PM Herps that he does not even offer his baby Rosys water for the first year.

I have several Rosy Boas and in particular I have some that I have had since last February that have never had a water dish in their enclosure.
-----
Peter Jolles
East Coast Colubrids
www.eastcoastcolubrids.com

bluerosy Nov 23, 2006 10:04 PM

Also, I have gotten into Rosy Boas and learned from Paul at PM Herps that he does not even offer his baby Rosys water for the first year.

I have several Rosy Boas and in particular I have some that I have had since last February that have never had a water dish in their enclosure.

I used to keep a lot of rosys and this is true. The only times i would offer them water was when the females were gravid and to neonates. Also spilled water dishes (ie high humidity) does not go well with rosys. Thats why i had to get out of them here in the humid south.

But I would not apply this to colubrids because I have had several adults dehydrate on me. I wish they would go w/o water because I hate changing water dishes and most illnesses are from water dishes left in the cage or not disinfected properly.

A snake that does need water will be a healthier snake in the long run.

FR Nov 24, 2006 08:32 AM

no offense Bluerosy, but they are all the same, in this matter. Its up to you to adjust your cages, not get rid of them because of very slight differences in species abilities.

Its kinda like lots of people from the west do not like Eastern kings, the darn things shrivel up to fast. Our western kings are fine.

Truely I do not see a brooks or chain living out in the high desert of Cal. I wonder why?

The REAL truth is, once you understand and apply husbandry that can allow these colubrids to not become dehydrated, you can keep any species anywhere and it IS far better for them. All of them.

The no offense part is this, its really a beginer thing to only keep regional species. The reason is, those beginers do not understand that cages are suppose to adapt to the needs of the inmates. The inmates are not suppose to adapt to the cages. Or change the types of inmates. Cheers

bluerosy Nov 24, 2006 09:10 AM

Meaning the snake room is exposed to the environment outside.

The room I keep them in has no central air. I would keep rosys if i had a environmentally controlled snake room that is well insulated and does not have openings which expose the humidty outside.. The humidity is therefore very high. Maybe higher than what it is outside since the heat of the summer bakinbg down on a room with hundreds of live snakes, water, mice ect.

When I moved out here from the west coast back in '92 I took with me 300 breeder rosys. Thats all I worked with. They all did not fair well and it was a struggle trying to keep the air dry. I finally sold them all. Since then I have acquired some rosys here and there only to find out that they still will not do well..(wherether long or short term), without the dryer environment. Some last longer than others (2 seasons) while some succumb to problems earlier. I finally gave up in the best interest of the animals and got rid of them all. WhenI can afford to move and have a seperate snake house I will get back into them.

Aaron Nov 24, 2006 10:44 AM

Just curious Rainer, were you keeping the rosies in racks or aquariums?

bluerosy Nov 24, 2006 11:40 AM

When I had the large collection I kept them in aquriums as is cutomary with rosys. The screen tops aid in their health. I did keep them in racks while in calif (got to dig up those old pics) and they did well. I switched to aquiriums in Georgia for the rosys. I would never put an adult rosy into a rack system because of the ventilation and the already needed dryness.

Aaron Nov 24, 2006 12:02 PM

I only have 2 rosies and I keep them in a rack and they have done well for me since 1997 that way. I was just curious because if you had already switched to aquariums and they still did not do well I would have given up on them too. Like Frank says it can be done but is it worth the trouble.

j3nnay Nov 25, 2006 03:00 PM

How would you go about creating an enclosure that would meet the needs of an eastern king? Would it be something that could be completely enclosed? I imagine it's easier to create humidity than dryness (like the case of bluerosy's rosy boas). How would you make a dry humidity, especially with no water bowl? Did you humidify a whole room, or what?
I am amazed at how ridiculously easy it is to keep my cal king. Compared to all the tinkering I had to do with my balls to get humidity/heat just right, it almost feels like cheating!

~jenny
-----
1.2 normal ball pythons (Cindy, Darwin, and Periscope)
0.0.1 california kingsnake (Tetris)
0.2 rescue chinese water dragons
1.0 rex rat (Scurvy)
1.0 gerbil (Yerbul)
0.1 bunny (Spazz)
1.1 betta fishes (Vicious and Killer)
2.2 great danes (Shasta, Odysseus, Merlot, and Watson)
1.0 fat fuzzy mutt (Smokey)
1.1 cats (Thidwick and Turtle)
2.0 horses (Buddy and Sam)
1.0 goat (Billy Jack)
1.25 chickens (Ugly the rooster and his harem)

"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." - Voltaire

ECC Nov 26, 2006 08:01 PM

I thought that FR meant that the cage was dry but the air was humid --- that was what I assumed he meant by "dry but humid".
-----
Peter Jolles
East Coast Colubrids
www.eastcoastcolubrids.com

j3nnay Nov 27, 2006 07:04 PM

>>I thought that FR meant that the cage was dry but the air was humid --- that was what I assumed he meant by "dry but humid".

I'm pretty sure that is what he meant, what I was asking was how he did it in southern california. I have enough issues making sure my balls are between 50 and 60%, and that's with a large waterbowl, occasional mistings, and lots of fiddling with the substrate to keep it moist but not too moist. I'm just curious as to how he managed to do humid without wet

~jenny
-----
1.2 normal ball pythons (Cindy, Darwin, and Periscope)
0.0.1 california kingsnake (Tetris)
0.2 rescue chinese water dragons
1.0 rex rat (Scurvy)
1.0 gerbil (Yerbul)
0.1 bunny (Spazz)
1.1 betta fishes (Vicious and Killer)
2.2 great danes (Shasta, Odysseus, Merlot, and Watson)
1.0 fat fuzzy mutt (Smokey)
1.1 cats (Thidwick and Turtle)
2.0 horses (Buddy and Sam)
1.0 goat (Billy Jack)
1.25 chickens (Ugly the rooster and his harem)

"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." - Voltaire

BIGJACK Nov 24, 2006 10:35 AM

Interesting and it makes sense FR. I have thought of using those divided food containers and put an entry hole only in one side. Fill the otherside up with with some damp/wet medium and poke holes between the 2 compartments. I'll have to test it with a hydrometer to see what kinda humidity the dry compartment gets. This would be for a hide not a whole enclosure but i guess it woul work for hatchlings.

Bluerosy why didnt you use a dehumidifyer and keep the Boas ? The money you probably lost in having to sell of a big collection you probably could have gotten a high end dehumidifyer...just a thought.
-----
Big Jack Bronson

bluerosy Nov 24, 2006 11:43 AM

Bluerosy why didnt you use a dehumidifyer and keep the Boas ? The money you probably lost in having to sell of a big collection you probably could have gotten a high end dehumidifyer...just a thought.

At the time ('92-93) they were in a two car garage which was opened all the time plus the air getting in from around the doors. A dehumidfyer would not have helped in these conditions.

If I had them in the house or seprate climate controlled snake room there would not have been a need for a dehumidifyer. But thnaks for the suggestion anyway.

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