Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Many years ago, I observed that ackie males treated their male offspring(at least some of them) very differently then unknown males. They did not drive them off or dominate them. They also would accept their sibling males, as well.

Recently I have been working with larger monitors and set up the same type conditions to see if they would compare to the ackies.

The problem is, cage size. Its very easy to not overcrowd or underhouse ackies, as they are very small. Larger monitors are not so easy.

Let me explain, this is important because normal behaviors are quickly destroyed by unsuitable cage conditions.

So, this case was with Lacies. Which have razor teeth and know how to use them. Both males and females can be very picky as to what individual monitors are allowed in the same cages.

Normally if raised together, you can without problem keep pairs together, or groups such as, 1.2 or more females. If you don't raise them together, you can experience problems with any combinations of sexes.

Back to the observation. I have a pair, an founder male(I have two) and a female sired by the other founder. So I decided to include a male this pair produced a few years ago, but was not raised with these individuals.

When first introduced, the males of course expressed concern with eachother, but did not fight(much)(all monitors fight some)

Recently the female cycled and of course the founder male attented her and bred her for several days. I did notice some blood on the young males nose, but no large wounds or persistant attacks. The smaller male just simply stayed away. Then much to my surprise, I found the young male breeding, with the much larger founder male in attendance. This continued for several days.

Normally males fight like cats and dogs when in the presense of a cycled female. Wait, that is wrong, cats and dogs are lite weights when compared to two male Lacies going full bore.

This groups cage is right next to another pairs cage. They have a shared wire wall. Normally I can tell when a female is cycling as the two males will constantly attempt to get at eachother during this time.

With this in mind, its meaningful that the larger founder male allowed a younger smaller male to copulate, right in his presense. Which is exactly what the ackies did so many years before.

REMEMBER, this is a report of an observation, I am not saying this or that. ITS A result of a test. I mention this because normally when I post something like this, folks reply with, so your saying this or that. To be clear, I am not saying anything, I am reporting, the monitors are saying something. But unfortunately its not exactly clear what they are saying, so I keep asking. Cheers

Hi FR,

That is very interesting. I wish that everyone who had monitors could experience events like you do. I'm glad you post those here. I love reading about them.

Keep posting. cheers,
Sean

So what the founder male is saying is, "It's OK if she gets impregnated with my DNA or my son's DNA, but we aren't gonna allow any foreign DNA around here"....lol

I am not that advanced to get that out of it. It may well be the end result, but I more interested in the how's and why's the end result occurs. I don't really care about that end result.

I am more interested that it happens. That it happens, gives me better approaches to manage our monitors. Cheers

interesting story. to validate that story you need another male lacie the same size that's not related. if that one gets beat up you may have something there. Mark Bayless reported findings like that with Bengal monitors and something else... i forgot.

makes you wonder if monitors have a unique chemical smell that family members recognize. i've been reading Auffenbegs the Bengal monitor recently. the chapter that describs scales i found interesting. males and females have patches on their bodies that contain exocrine scale glands and sensory plaques (male much more than females). they suggest pheremones may be involved with these sensors. i don't think too much study has gone into it.

interesting observation none the less

Their bodies are one giant pheromone emmiter and receptor. But that really is not the point. Animals have many ways to communicate, our words are normally not one of them. They communicate thru movement/posing, sound, sight, and smell. What I find important is what and why are they communicating. Not that they are. That seems so basic to me.

If you kept argus in pairs/groups, I am sure you saw that every minute of everyday, contained all sort of communication.

I believe I used a single example of what is normal to my lacies. They normally do not allow other males anywhere near them, at any time, muchless when a female has cycled.

I brought this up because it was an important except, with a possible reason. As I stated in my original post, I am not saying anything, I am only reporting an observation that I felt was interesting.

I feel these types of behaviors are important as they indicate there is more going on with monitors then most realize. They "may" have a defined social structure as so many of my observations seem to indicate. When I see common behaviors like pair bonding, group nesting, and behavoral ranges. I tend to think something is going and and we(not me) are missing it.

A behavioral range is, something like, to repell certain individuals, and attract others. In this case, this male repelled certain males, and attracted others. We find this with females as well. They also repell some and attract others, of any sex. Over time, we see there are basic reasons for this. Relationships seem to be very important.

As I mentioned, we have seen this with many other monitors, but Lacies along with croc monitors have supersized cutting teeth, what normally prevent keepers(me) from testing something that envolves using those teeth, on other montiors they/we value.

Auffenbergs, Bengal Monitor Book, is one book I enjoyed and learned from. I started using Leaflitter after reading his bengals nested in leaflitter in his back yard. Even thought his field reports stated Bengals nested in dirt banks. I have offended many authors by stating their work was useless to my work, this book was not, it was very useful.

Many yours ago, I met him, and went to his office in Gainsville. It was well before I had any interest in monitors. Cheers

correct me if i'm wrong but didn't you say you have a total of two male lacies? the founder male, and a younger male. if this is correct how do you know that the founder male would react any different to an unknown male than with his son when presented with the same circumstance?

i think the question "why" are they communicating is a very interesting question. however i thought your original post was regarding family recognition, and how a family member is treated differently than unknowns. so IF they do recognize their own gene pool, here is the key question... how do they do it? and why are they treated differently than unknowns? that's why i brought up the scale pits and sensors, because i doubt that they would be recognized by sight, or body language. smell sounds reasonable. thoughts?

cheers
shay

I said, two founder males. That does not mean I only have two males. I have several more, and I have had dozens and dozens more males around. You know, raised up and sold.

I stated it was an observation. Period. The question of why, is not important to me. I have no need to question why, yet. or maybe at anytime.

Or the "how" for that matter. Its fairly obvious as to how. It really was observation of something that happened.

One of the problems that occurs here(and a lot of places) is, you(collectively) want to make answers out of everything. In this case, there is no need for an answer. Its really not a problem that needs an answer. Its more of a fringe benefit, that this male allows his son to live with him. If it occurs again and again, then maybe a pattern will form. Unfortunately, I will not be keeping enough of them to make to much out of this.

I kept Prehensile skinks for a long period, about 15 yrs. I had a pair. During that 15 years, the female had 15 babies. I allowed them to live together. But for some reason, the female would kick out some of the babies.

As it turned out, she kicked out all the female offspring. Which means the individuals allowed to grow up this the adults cage were males. Again, an interesting event. Don't really know or care what it means.

I think I enjoy allowing them to do natural things, I enjoy the things they do, I don't feel the need to question or analize it. I just enjoy it.

Today I was sitting in the same cage. I was feeding the female. she was inside a hollow log. The male kept messing with me. He ended up climbing on my leg to get food. Then he decided to eat my leg. So I bounced him to the ground, the old goofball. Cheers