Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Like the title says...I need some info!!!
I just got done reading "The Guide to Owning a Box Turtle"
by Jordan Patterson.

I dont know but I dont feel like the book was all that great.
I have a pair of Ornate Box Turtles at my Pet Store and I was thinking about getting one or the pair but I want to make sure I have all the info I need.

First things first, the Enclosure.
The book says you really cant keep them indoors.
Is this true?
I can build a custom cage with no problem.
How much space do they need to live indoors?
4'x4' square cage maybe a foot tall?

Substrate?
Im guessing soil?

Food bowl and a water bowl.
Hidespots.

UV lighting?

Heatsource?
lamp or pad?

Thats about it for now...any other info would be great!

Thanks
--Cody

I'm no professional, but I've been put through some trials and tribulations for several years now concerning keeping ornates. I live way out of their range and climate, so it has been tough.

One question...where do you live? There's no need to be really specific, just in general. That greatly affects how you should keep them.

hatchling ornate

i live in Michigan.

a pet store really isn't the place to get a box turtle, by selling them to you they will just replace them with more box turtles that should be in the wild reproducing not in an aquarium.

you can find adult and hatchling ornates in the classifieds.
also 4x4 is barely big enough for one.

I'm not a professional turtle keeper either but I do know enough to realize that the pet store books generally don't contain enough practical info to help a person.
I've read too that ornates don't do well in captivity, they are hard to keep, blah blah blah.. well I live in their range, I have them only because they had problems & just happened. However, I haven't found them difficult to keep at all.

I have to agree with Ken though.. how to set them up & keep them does depend on where you live, what type of climate you are in. Are they naturally occurring wildlife in your region or are they out of their natural range where you live?
Knowing that would help.
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PHRatz

Well, I'm not a professional either, but I am really glad that you found this forum and are doing your research before you get the animals. You are obviously concerned and want the best for them.

I have one female ornate that I have had for 18 years now. I find them to be especially hardy and not difficult to care for compared to other box turtles and your average torts. They do tend to be shyer that other box turtles and like to stay buried except to warm up and eat.

Two things to pay attention to. One most pet stores get wild caught animals that are harder to adapt to captivity than are captive breed. Two they usually are parasite loaded, stressed, particually when they come in as adults. You'll need a good herp vet to take a look at them and help you get them established. It is always best to find one before you need them so you don't waste time getting things treated because you are trying to find a good herp vet. If you need help we can help with this also.

One other thing you might want to consider is adopting an ornate, if that is what you are set on, from one of the herp adoption groups. Some will ship and some don't, but you might be fortunate and find one in your own state. You'd be amazed at how many box turtles are on Petfinder.com

If you aren't set on any particular boxie, but the ornates are just handy, let me reccomend 3 toe boxies. They have great personalities and are much more personable (generally speaking) than ornates. It all depends on why you want the turtles and what you are planning to do with them. The care for them isn't much different, but if you want a more social turtle I like the 3 toes.

Here are some linke you might want to explore that could be of hep to you.
http://www.boxturtlesite.info/
http://www.anapsid.org/box.html
http://www.tortoisetrust.org/care/cornata.html
http://boxturtlesite.info/bxbook.html

I forgot here is my girl.

>>I forgot here is my girl.
>>

She really is.
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PHRatz

: )

Cody,

The first thing I'd do is select quality reading material. Two very good books are: "The Practical Encyclopedia of Keeping and Breeding Tortoises and Freshwater Turtles" by AC Highfield and "Keeping and Breeding Freshwater Turtles" by Russ Gurley.

Yes, they do best when kept outdoors. Different people have had different levels of success with Ornates. I have a friend in Cleveland who keeps them outside year-round. He produced baby Ornates this year.

As others have said, you should adopt, rather than support the business of taking box turtles from the wild. You should also consider joining your local herp society - you can get a heck of a lot of information from others in your area who keep turtles, as well as possibly get some adoptable animals.

Tim

Third Eye

The amount of help Im getting here.
Thanks guys!
I live in Southern Michigan so I am in natural range of boxxies!
I have not yet taken in to consideration the three toed. I work at the pet store thats where I saw the ornates. I am not sure if they are wild caught though but you guys are probably right they probably are wild caught.
Any more info you want to throw at me will be appreciated.
Enclosure
Substrate
Diet
Boxxies favorite TV shows...
all of the above. hehe
Thanks again
--Cody

You might want to contact
http://www.michiganreptilerescue.org/
They have some 3 toes that they are trying to find homes for.
They are nice people and travel all over the state, so you might be able to meet up with them near you too. They are great about answering questions.

thanks for the advice.

You'll find a list here:
http://www.michherp.org/vetlist.html

Where in southern Michigan do you live? I live in the Grand Rapids area, and that is the area where my first box turtle was found..... here in MI, we are near the edge of their range - not sure what effect that has on turtle size and longevity.

biowarble, formerly wjboelema

Enclosure - very large, preferrably outdoors...95 degree basking spot...cooler area ~75 degrees...both dry and humid hiding areas...large water bowl for soaking...UVA/UVB lighting

Substrate - not picky...repti-bark and sphagnum mixed...mist only occasionally...keep fairly dry...flat slate for filing fast growing nails

Diet - live insects and lots of them...dusted crickets, superworms, earthworms, waxworms, roaches, grasshoppers, and just about anything else that's not poisonous. Some take prepared foods and fruits/veggies, mine only nibble. They are supposed to love mullberries. Mine love tomatoes and prickly pear cactus pads and fruit.

Boxxies favorite TV shows - Lost, oh no wait, that's mine.

I'm glad that you're looking into it first. Here's my two cents.
I keep one colony of Ornates and one colony of Deserts outdoors in the Southeast. I won't bore you with the long, painful story of it all.

If you're in the native range of ornates, they are very easily kept in the proper outdoor pens. If you live out of their natural range, and in an area that is unlike their natural climate, they can be very difficult to keep outdoors. I wouldn't recommend keeping them outdoors in Michigan unless you have significant pen-building and box turtle keeping experience.

*I'm generalizing here...I know that there are exceptions.* Ornate box turtles are like little shelled coyotes. They are very wiley, intelligent, and stubborn. They are active, even fast, and are much less docile than T. carolina. Wild caught ornates rarely tame. True, they will learn to accept food from a keeper and even run towards them at feeding time. However, if they are to thrive, they should be given a ton of space, lots of exercise, and mental stimulation. They may survive in a rubbermaid box, but I don't think that they'll thrive. I sometimes have to keep one indoors because of an illness or injury. As soon as they're healthy, all you hear is the constant thud of their shells on the enclosure floor as they try to climb the walls. They hate being indoors. My T. carolina, on the other hand, could hardly care less as long as they're fed and secure.

In short...wild caught, pet store, indoors, first box turtle...a recipe for disaster in my opinion. First, I'd start with captive bred juveniles ~3 inches or less. They're much more hardy and adaptable in my opinion. Second, I'd start with a T. carolina if you'd really like to have a box turtle. Steffke's recommendation to adopt a Three-toe is an excellent idea. I don't think you can legally keep Easterns in Michigan. Third, I'd read all of that information given to you and I'd build a large indoor pen with all of the trimmings before I ever brought the turtle or turtles home.

My personal exception...yearling ornates and deserts are quite possibly the best reptilian pets I've ever had. They're nearly bullet proof, they eat anything and everything, and they've really seemed to bond with me. If you absolutely must keep an ornate, I'd get a cb yearling. I'm not saying that they're easy...let's just say that they're the least challenging .

Ooops, I pressed post instead of edit. I said that wild caught ornates rarely tame. Tame isn't a good word. They can become personable, but they rarely...calm down. I guess that's better. They still need a lot of activity and freedom. Sometimes, T. carolina subspecies can become complacent to the point of laziness. I have yet to see this with ornates.

Great discription of an ornate's personality. I would also add that they are great climbers and escape artists if given the chance!

BTW, You can legally own an eastern in Michigan, IF you get a permit to own one first from the DNR. They are only concerned about T. carolina and don't care about the other subspecies of that group. So I'm hoping to have a permit by summer!!

Happy that I posted in this forum.
Once again, Thanks for the info.
--Cody

Let us know what you decide. Post pictures if you adopt if at all possible.

I'm frickin happy that you posted here too.
Look at this, so many people have already posted so much good advice for you.
Life can't get any better than this!
-----
PHRatz

Ken,
i love your coyote analogy to describe the ornate box turtles! i agree lots of space is critical for them. i'll also add that most if not all will eventually grow to love soaked troutchow, although it may be a long process to get wildcaught adults to even sample a prepared diet. pinky and even fuzzy mice can be a great food to offer now and then, particularly for underweight specimens or breeding females. i've been keeping desert box turtles in the backyard for 12 years now. what i have observed is that the males really make use of all the space they can get, especially in the spring and fall. they will literally patrol the perimeter of the yard. females tend to settle into a particular area, and are generally more sedentary. the egglaying season will, however, often prod the females into moving around to search for nest sites. I have a large backyard entirely available to the turtles, and some of the females were never seen outside of a 30 or 40 sq foot area! (keep in mind this is small relative to the entire area available, but still rather large compared to a plastic tub.)

good luck, ian

>>Ken,
>>i love your coyote analogy to describe the ornate box turtles! i agree lots of space is critical for them. i'll also add that most if not all will eventually grow to love soaked troutchow, although it may be a long process to get wildcaught adults to even sample a prepared diet. pinky and even fuzzy mice can be a great food to offer now and then, particularly for underweight specimens or breeding females. i've been keeping desert box turtles in the backyard for 12 years now. what i have observed is that the males really make use of all the space they can get, especially in the spring and fall. they will literally patrol the perimeter of the yard. females tend to settle into a particular area, and are generally more sedentary.

This is so interesting to me.
I only keep the desert box, haven't ever kept another box species so to read what those of you observe in the desert box compared to other species is just awesome to me.
Ian, your comparison here of male & female desert box is dead on for what I see in mine.
-----
PHRatz

I recently had this discussion with Michigan DNR (via email). One needs a permit to keep an EBT if the turtle was caught/bred in Michigan. I got a permit because the turtle I got had a long history of captivity. One doesn't need a permit for other box turtles. One can also buy an EBT in another state (as long as it is legal in that state) and keep it in Michigan, without getting a permit. Although he did say it would be a good idea to keep a letter from the seller stating the turtle came from another state.

I keep an ornate here. She seems to be doing fine. (had her for 4 years) I bought her from here: http://www.abbottsturtlefarm.com/ She came healthy and happy and has remained that way. A couple of years ago I was able to visit their farm in person. I was very impressed! I have no qualms about recommending them! (I have no financial interest here!)

Good luck and keep in touch!
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0.1.0 ornate box turtle
1.0.0 eastern box turtle
1.0.0 Yellow belly slider
0.1.0 Red belly cooter
0.1.0 Australian shepard
1.12.0 chickens
3.2.0 children (do I still count the married ones?)
1.0.0 husband

I will for sure keep in touch. I really would like to adobt one but I couldnt find a link on the website. I would also like to get a captive born. I want to keep it in my basement until spring then move it to the outside (weather permitting). Cage is probably going to be a 4x8 sheet of plywood and im going to build a 1 foot wall around it. One foot should keep them in?
The top will probably be an open top with some screen on a quarter of it to put the heat lamps and UVB lighting.

They need UVB light dont they?

Thanks
--Cody

When kept indorrs thay need the uva/b lighting. Once outdoors they get it naturally from the sun.

Ditto to Steffke. Some people only offer UVA and supplement with vitamin D3. With the new bulbs they have providing both, I'd say supply UVA/UVB and supplement additionally.

One foot wouldn't really be high enough if you add substrate, which you should. You'd be amazed at how well they can climb, especially in the corners. You could make a lip along the top with screen or wood. My minimum is 14 inches, but if you make a ledge you can go as short as 10. Any shorter than that and your risking the turtle getting stuck while trying to climb out...I've seen that happen.