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Peanut Butter x jelly brooksi yet to produce double het for gooobers.Just wondering what they may look like.Also,You should have called the sulpher's Honey brooks so you could do the whole peanut butter and honey etc....

Side note,I know they are really the same snake but why are all the snows in the hobby called brooksi even if they were produced with lav FL.kings.Why havn't the big guns just called them all fls or all brooksi?Its just a question I am not trying to start crap.

Also,Lets take a poll of who is for and who is against manmade intergrades.

Shannon

Depends what intergrades. If it is possible to happen in the wild then sure....other than that no thanks for me.
Sam

Hey Shannon,
I don't think there's enough snow left on top of the mountain for the avalanche of answers your looking for on that subject!
I think we have beaten' that dead horse to a pulp. Good luck!
-Phil

Posted by: Patton at Sat Nov 25 13:36:43 2006 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

Hey Shannon,
I don't think there's enough snow left on top of the mountain for the avalanche of answers your looking for on that subject!
I think we have beaten' that dead horse to a pulp. Good luck!
-Phil

Gee Shannon. I will never understand how this forum survived without you. SO , So , INOVATIVE..

Man,C'mon Rainer.You know me.LOL.....
Look,I was actually very serious about the questions.I do think that gooober will look cool or whatever its called.I havn't kept up much with these things since I don't work with them anymore But I was curious about the fl./brooksi thing on the snows.

Anyway,Its all good.
L8r

!

being they are the same animal, and the Quote-unquote Brooksi apperantly came out of different locales from midstate to extreme South Fl. so the term could already be misrepresenting need to ask the Brooks Mr. or Mrs.?
they does seem to be a locale specifics(Fl.) of the parts of Fl. they are found. to bad they are tuff to find in the brooks Zones or purists could have specifics like the Alternas, the South Flas could be Calle Ocho or 8th ST.= Tamiami Trail"LOL tyhe way it seeems to be today most are called brooks from breeding light colored animals compared to canefield Fl. King snakes" those large Black rabbit eatters, but i am not sure where the Lav came from if a Fla king a Brooks or? ,i gotta stop,L8r my friends, hope all had a nice Thanksgiving
maybe the dark canefield kings are the sub sp.?

I had a really good laugh with that post! "A picture worth a thousand words". Thanks!
-Phil

I think fla X brooksi is fine but you should either call them fla X brooksi or just floridana. If you are going to use brooksi then you are recognizing it and should use it properly. If you don't recognize brooksi fine, just don't use it then.
If you are just calling brooksi a look then make sure any fla you put in there matches the look before you start calling it brooksi too. You may get away with it in a morph but people will notice if they make hets so it's still not good unless you've locked in the look.

I'm for man-made integrades - if done for a reason.

Those $10 cal X mbk's mentioned earlier?
I would not be surprised if some of them were het for amel ...
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3.3 L. getula californiae
1.0 L. getula nigrita
1.0 Boa constrictor constrictor (suriname, fostering/rescue)
2.1.2 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

well I sure like to look at the manmades and must confess, I have a hypo now so I guess I am for 'em, just not gonna breed 'em ....yet.NO! Baaaad Todd!!! Do what ya' want, I am gonna go locality for now!
Todd Hughes

than man-made intergrades. The only problem with either of them in my view is intentional or unintentional misrepresentation. I think it would be easier to distinguish/harder to misrepresent some wacky hybrid.

I’m all for purists maintaining sacred locality lines for the good of the planet, even if it is just a hobby. I am against anyone not allowing you to pursue your interest in the hobby if you are producing captive animals that helps reduce the pressure on field collecting. The hybrids and fancy creations obviously do that. Are Okeetee corns really from the Okeetee Hunt Club locality or is that a generic term for any stunning “normal” corn? Is “Brooks” just a hobby term for any super attractive light “Florida” king, or any king found in South Florida no matter how dark? What is a Creamsicle? Refined man made creation?, hybrid/intergrade?, accepted hobby lingo for what it is? It is all hobby lingo, and that is all any of this is. I just want those extreme fringe purists to vote with their wallets only. Don’t buy if you don’t want, but don’t try to ban something just because it’s not your thing.

I like your post an agree with your point of view... i like and have kept "pure" strains, intergrades, crosses and hybrids [got rid of all my hybrids to concentrate on "Brooksi" Goini and Brooksi X Goini]

i really enjoyed your last line:

"Don't buy if you don't want, but don't try to ban something just because it’s not your thing."

That should be a slogan...

~ZF
Compariosn shot Blaze Phase Goini (top)/ Hypo "Brooksi" (bottom)... both `04 hatched and female.

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Royal ReptileZ
Home of Bklyn's Finest Brooksi

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signature file edited 4/22/06; contact an admin.

>>"Don't buy if you don't want, but don't try to ban something just because it’s not your thing."
>>
>>That should be a slogan...
>>

Yes, but it should probaly be a slogan for purists and hybrid-keepers joining together, keeping an eye out for state agencies, legislatures or county commissions taking unreasonable actions against all reptile breeders. That's who is banning things, not anyone who expresses an opinion here.

>>"Don't buy if you don't want, but don't try to ban something just because it’s not your thing."
>>
>>That should be a slogan...

I didn’t mean that thing to be a slogan, but I like this one...

“Captive produced, nature not reduced”

I would hope we can unite in the fact that all captive bred snakes help to protect naturally occurring types. You have people who are locality specific promoting the notion that captive bred are not good enough at the same time driving up the interest in snakes that they would have you believe only occur in the wild. That does encourage field collecting when people become paranoid to buy captive bred for some artificially created fear. If you want to maintain a high yellow kingsnake, you can do that and it shouldn’t matter if it is created or not. There are a lot of advantages to you and the hobby if it was. That refinement becomes a big part of the hobby itself.

> I would hope we can unite in the fact that all captive bred
> snakes help to protect naturally occurring types. You have people
> who are locality specific promoting the notion that captive bred
> are not good enough at the same time driving up the interest in
> snakes that they would have you believe only occur in the wild.

Just want to make sure a small point is understood -

Hobbyist collection is not what causes problems in wild populations. Habitat destruction is.

SF Garters are endangered because of construction, and the introduction of the Bullfrog.

Vegas Valley leopard frogs are extinct because some genious decided to build a city in the desert, and capped the springs.

I have nothing against the hobbyist who wants to take from the wild, they are not the ones causing population decline.

Those causing population decline are those that would prefer the attention of LE and Public look on the hobbyists - so that they can continue to build their mini malls. If there isn't a Starbucks every third block, the city must be in the stone ages!

The locality purists that take from the wild very often breed and sell their offspring. They contribute to captive bred availability, with a very low environmental impact.

Yet F&G won't allow collection on properties about to be bulldozed if the collector is over bag limit. Guess the animals are better off dead, eh?
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3.3 L. getula californiae
1.0 L. getula nigrita
1.0 Boa constrictor constrictor (suriname, fostering/rescue)
2.1.2 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

Yes you are right about the habitat destruction. That is number one. And I would think it would be a good thing to collect every possible thing from land that will be lost. Here in Florida they get incidental take permits to bulldoze gopher tortoise by the hundreds, a supposedly protected species. But you may not breed them. All those mini malls and destroyed lands are little pockets of extinction spreading and connecting and getting bigger. People see a road kill fox and say “I didn’t know we still had fox around here”. Hey, now you don’t, that was the last one. The real purpose of F&G is to keep people like you and me from interfering with their process of managing this gradual extinction. Sad and cynical but true harsh reality.

Well, I'm sure when the goevernment finds a way to make the animals pay taxes, they'll start worrying about not killin them off. Until then, its a good thing that people are breeding pure strains... at least that way, they might still be around for our grandchildren and so on to enjoy.

Now we see eye to eye! That would be my sentiment exactly. I collect minimally from the field to have a pure breeding stock to begin working with, not collecting every w.c. snake I run across, even the really great looking ones. I want a true representation of the locality, even if others think it is not as attractive. That is where the morph guys come in. If I feel my snake was going to get the care it deserves, it is up to me to sell to a qualified (IMHO) caregiver and up tp that caregiver to do what they want with it.
Todd Hughes

Right Todd, there's always gonna be good guys breeding pure and morphs but on thing that bugs me is after the snakes are out of your hands it is the same as with crosses and hybrids....it's anyones guess what will happen next wether they sold in pairs or not. However it is only guys who cross subs and make hybrids that hear about this often, as if all locale snakes stay pure generation after generation.
I have heard this argument about collecting not making a difference many times.....but I have seen areas that were hit by herpers who did not put things back in place many times and heard people complaining they are't finding a thing in spots that used to be loaded with snakes. Just like when you show someone a good fishing hole, come back to your spot and see no room for you to fish there....it happens. I know you have good intentions and know you will do well with your projects. Just adding a little comment to the discussion Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

> I have heard this argument about collecting not making a
> difference many times.....but I have seen areas that were hit by
> herpers who did not put things back in place many times and heard
> people complaining they are't finding a thing in spots that used
> to be loaded with snakes.

Yes - people who destroy habitat annoy me.

An interesting note - as a wee kid (5 to 10) there were thousands of western toads in the community I live in. They were everywhere. Their numbers started to dwindle, and soon I found none. When I was 16 - suddenly there were thousands again - as if a plague from Egypt had happened.

I can't explain it - but the ponds where they use to be only had treefrogs for several years, at least that I could find, and then suddenly a few years later they were everywhere again.

I think due to el niño, or whatever else, there are cycles for which a species is extremely prolific and cycles when you just think they are completely gone - but they're not, they just aren't out.

With the toads, maybe changes in the water table?

I personally believe the reduction of the red legged frog is a primary cause for the reduction of the giant garter snake in California - Bullfrogs grow rapidly and are soon big enough that they do not make good prey, as well as making excellent predators for the baby snakes.

I think it is easy to blame collectors and completely miss the real cause.
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3.3 L. getula californiae
1.0 L. getula nigrita
1.0 Boa constrictor constrictor (suriname, fostering/rescue)
2.1.2 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

One thing that I do is add some ac to the habitats so that nice thremoreg places can be found and utilized by the snakes. Lizards and mice often move under the plywood and voila! Snakes! In February I find them tucked under ac (area cover).
Todd Hughes

Hey Todd, maybe you could check out the thread on the field collecting forum about placing tins and contribute there. You may have just the information someone was asking for.

Hmmm, I didn't see that thread and I visit there often, I will look again.
Todd Hughes

Sorry, I meant the "Field notes and observations" section.

I have heard this argument about collecting not making a difference many times.....but I have seen areas that were hit by herpers who did not put things back in place many times and heard people complaining they are't finding a thing in spots that used to be loaded with snakes. Just like when you show someone a good fishing hole, come back to your spot and see no room for you to fish there....it happens. I know you have good intentions and know you will do well with your projects. Just adding a little comment to the discussion Tom Stevens

Habitat destruction whether its AC or natural is not usually an issue for the snakes, but for the collectors themselves.. If a collector goes to a spot and destroys the snakes cover, whether its AC (artificial cover = boards, carpet, tin ect) or rock damage.It does not effect the population itself. Snakes will continue to breed in the wild. This has been proven with studies of population densities.

Some feel that the damaged habitat would lead to the extinction of snakes and many other reptiles that occupied the area, due to the theoiry that these rock piles/AC were absolutely vital to the survival of the snakes.

In truth a person who does not put back AC or rocks allows the snakes a better chance of not being picked up by another collector. So in really they are doing the snakes a favor.

I respect you very much, bluerosy. Please don’t take this little rant the wrong way. I see your point, I guess what I was referring to was to entire obliteration of habitat. As in scorch earth development where every living thing is piled up and burnt to make way for these cute housing projects. I chose these examples because if you look, in the corners, you can see the Everglades. They have built right to the edge of where they can without putting in homes that float. This is the type of habitat obliteration we in south Florida are talking about, in case you are thinking we are talking about somebody not flipping the tin back the way they found it. These are areas of extinction, right up to wetlands where there is no dry land except along the canal bank. Our wildlife is reduced to living on golf courses- there are no upland dry hammocks or xeric scrub lands left. It is gone.

No, I was referring to habitat destruction by collectors. But thanks for clearing that up.

Hope the gators eat their poodles! I have not been back to the glades since 1974 when I "hiked" through the glades from hammock to hammock till I stepped into a gator (summertime deep water) hole and scared the bejezzes out of myself.

Snakelaw,

I agree...but, as with most instances of human encroachment...the animals usually wind up on the wrong end of the stick...since the "normal" food is gone because of habitat destruction...the deer will be replaced with poodles and labs!

And once this happens...state wildlife agencies and others will remove the "problem" animals (usually not good for the animal)...in any case based on the aerial photos...there will be scenes like this for their nieghborhood pets (Nature's Revenge?)...

These photos were taken from a local news helicopter over Cross Lake (Shreveport,LA).

Later,

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CSRAJim

That picture has happened from the dawn of time, it is more of a common occurrance than not, people just don't see it. Yeah, better keep precious in the house or you may end up with just a leash!
Todd Hughes

That was a good one!!! wether you're serious or not... I needed a good laugh today!!!

Oh, about your poll Shannon: It's all good to me.(Personally), I think people shouldn't mix animals that nature didn't intend to be mixed, ie: bullsnake x kingsnake, or cornsnake x garter snake, or whatever (no one knows if this will ever create health problems for some hybrids in the future either). I'm not knocking' it, but I guess it's okay as long as you don't cross kingsnakes and bullfrogs, or birds and cornsnakes or some crazy stuff like that, lol!!! But I'm sure as I write this, someone has already tried that in their basement- Rainer??? Just kidding, bro! You DO have some AWESOME snakes, though!
HAPPY HOLIDAYS to ALL,
Zee
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"I am an expert on everything, but I know so little and have so much to learn!" -Carsten "Zee" Zoldy-

Hey the forum member here on this forum picked the Peanut Butter name . I didn't. I would prefer Ultra.

I am wondering if the crossing subs bothers you because in Milks it can be extremely hard to distinguish pure from a cross for the average herper, even experienced herpers too? For Milks I understand your concern. I do not worry about it much with Kings though. I am debating referring to the majority of my Brooksi simply as Floridana now. The only problem with that is then certain people looking to buy will pass on the Floridana insisting they want Brooksi. Did you by any chance read any of the threads I started about Southern Pines on the Pit forum??? Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Hi Tom,
Yes I did read all the threads about the pines.Anyway,I really never said it bothered me in any way or didn't for that matter.I was just wondering people's take on "man made" intergardes.I wasn't even talking about hybrids and thats were this ended up LOL...

Well,Yes with milks I am all the way a locale and a purist if there is such thing.
If I can't get exact info on something I will shy away from it.Thats not to say I have sold off all my hondurans because I don't have exact locale data etc...

Anyway,I was just really wondering why the snows were refered to as brooksi if they had fl,in them.I know they are the same but I can't figure out why everybody wouldn't just go with one name since its not a locale animal and its a morph.
I know I don't make much sence but hey?

Anywho,I see the brooksi/FL. thing just like I see the siniloan/nelsoni thing.This day and age I dare anybody to show me a true real nelsoni.Can't be done to my knowledge.

L8r

Anywho,I see the brooksi/FL. thing just like I see the siniloan/nelsoni thing.This day and age I dare anybody to show me a true real nelsoni.Can't be done to my knowledge.

You can find light colored floridana and dark brooksi. Its more a locale thing IMO.

I can see your point. I think that since Brooksi is no longer even considered a valid subspecies there's no harm in calling them all Floridana. I sure would love to see what the original het for Hypo Brooksi looked like. There were a few...very few breeders who had a theory that where the head met the neck on the 2 subs was different and that was one way to know if you had Brooksi or not. I have not heard of anyone making this claim in a long time.
I think that Floridana are just very variable, but do not know how much difference it makes when breeding a muddy male to a light yellow female. I think people have been mixing and matching without paying much attention for years with the morphs. Example being someone with an ugly normal female bought a nice Snow and made hets or what have you... In all seriousness how often do you see an ad for Floridana? 9.5 will say Brooksi. I was taken myself a time or two....one clown sold me offspring garanteed to be high yellow Brooksi....it was the most generic muddy Florida King you could ever see as an adult. I also feel there's no harm in calling them all Floridana because if you line bred normals til they became brighter and brighter through generations of select breeding....what now? Those are Brooksi? Depending on who you talk to they're kind of locale...or found in numerous areas of Florida... I just don't see why it matters so much, but I myself am guilty of calling most morphs Brooksi, seems like a habit that is hard to shake since so many others also do. Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Tom you got it-“ I just don't see why it matters so much”. There is no science in using the name “Brooks”. Or in most nick names dreamed up for the hobby. It is strictly a hobby term at this point, has everything to do with look and nothing with locale. You might find someone describing “extreme South Florida” kings to signify the traditional Brooks because of locale. Usually the Brooks type has the white crossbands across the back much closer than the “Florida” type, and the side pattern fades to fairly patternless. But it really doesn’t matter, in the case of Brooks/Florida they are basically the same snake.

Tom,That was a great post.That is just how I feel.
L8r

The problem is, brooks is a color phase of normal fla kings. There are normal fla kings in the same areas that brooks originated. Kind of like Blairs and alternas, or banded and striped kings or MBK's and splendida. Different looking snakes from the same genetic pool.

About nelsons and sins. Nelsons have a lower band count, narrower red, and thicker black. Their range is south of sins. There is also more black on the head. Hmmmmmmmmm this is from memory from a long time ago(catching them)

Now decades later, if a you cannot tell one from the other, then the answer is simple, they are neither. They may have become generic. The truth is, there are still normal nelsons living in nature and normal sins, living in nature. Whats in captivity is not a concern. Those in nature are STILL what they were. Cheers

Frank,
Yes I agree that in the wild there are still sin's and there are still nelsoni.I know the difference and could pick a nelsoni out of a bag if it was in with five siniloans.
I was saying that in the hobby you can't find pure nelsoni as you could in the mid 80s or early to mid 90s.

I know it really doesn't matter but I would love to work with some pure ass locale nelsoni.I would keep them clean and wouldn't cross them with the sins or nelsoni/sins in the hobby.But thats just me.

L8r Shannon

" I am debating referring to the majority of my Brooksi simply as Floridana now. The only problem with that is then certain people looking to buy will pass on the Floridana insisting they want Brooksi."

You are right about that Tom. This goes way back to when the hypos first came out and there is no point trying to change everybody. Anybody really into brooksi/fla morphs probably already knows and probably anybody really into floridanas (if such people exist) would get mad if there was some brooksi in there ruining all that beautiful floridana brown, LOL.

I have had LOTS of people get back to me with interest in the brooks x goini intergrades. I dont pretend to think that every snake will have the same amount of interest, but with so many morphs available now it only seems natural to cross them into each other to produce double,triple,multi-morph kings. I like the rule "if they dont intergrade in nature" too. Cant wait to get these orange ones out to those interested,J

You know anything about the Repticon show in Ft. Meyers December 3rd, and if Gulf Coast will be there?

Very, very nice!
Todd Hughes

Jeff I think I remember you being very adamant when you once told me via this forum "DO NOT DO THAT CROSS" when I was talking about red/eastern milk/scarlet king projects a few years back. Have you changed your position??
Or is my memory that bad?? Could be for sure!
I think that out of most of the intergrade/hybrids I've seen, the brooks X goini is best when the stripe and axanthic is in play.
Are you also working with those?
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

I have kept most every species that ever interested me. Now I am finding that my interest is in the "whats next". North American milks are a bit different because so few people work with them and they are harder to find and keep and breed. Locality should not be downplayed, but its important that each of us do what we can to keep our interest in the forefront. That "cross" has been done before and the offspring were not very impressive. I was concerned where those offspring would end up and to what locality they were "catagorized".
Breeding kings for morphs is a bit different. There are alot more of them(both in captivity and the wild)and easier to keep. There seems to be more of a market for these crosses as well, because they are easy to keep or because some of these are just wild looking animals. Producing intergrades on the way to double/triple/multi morphs should be OK, there is a pet store market for the undesirables that there just isnt with milks.They are just too difficult to keep for the average pet store shopper I think you will agree.
That said, I look at my collection now and scratch my head....I have these rare locality milks from that small island and these morph kings....its a far different type of collection as I had 5 or 10 years ago. Jeff

So true and it speaks volumes about whether we can indeed have/breed both locality "pure" animals and morphs/intergrades/hybrids.
I always have doubts at first about the "purity" of someone's animals when it is known that they have hybrids and such as well.
Yet I do and also keep things "in order" and seperate.
Funny how the double standard can creep up on all of us, huh?
To be certain, once they leave your custody, there's no way you can control what is done with them. I'd say that most times when animals are misrepresented, it is not necessarily out of purposeful deceit, but rather benign ignorance.
It seems that many of us as well as our collections themselves go through changes for different reasons.
Good luck with your projects.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com