Reptile & Amphibian Forums

http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=6&de=125172

Its an amel goini advertised on classifieds.

They are advertised as true amel goini.

Anyone know the history?

It's a goini X lavender florida. They also have axanthics(not the blue) and snows. Definately not "PURE" goini.

Brandon

Okay, thats what I thought. I have seen the fakes before, that was not even a good one. Here is a better one.

Wait . The ad said Chris McQuade produced them and said they are true goini and not a cross. Any validity to this story? Anyone?

From my understanding, the goini are Sheila's project. And I was told by a friend of theirs last year, that they are in fact, not pure goini. I think we would have heard of an axanthic and albino goini long ago if they are also producing snows.........and they were only $150ea.........I think.

Brandon

Those albinos, snows, and axanthics are the result of breeding Florida Kings into them...they are not true "goini".

What about the "blaze phase" goini produced by Gulfcoast....are they legit?

In the case of the albinos...it's a real shame when snakes like those change hands and end up being misrepresented by brokers who are either ignorant or purposely deceitful regarding the origin of that morph.
Chris

I contacted the seller before I posted and they have not yet responded. I asked if Chris McQuade told them these were pure and they still have not responded to my email.
I guess that clears that up.

making Hybrids and unnatural intergrades is obvious by the looks of that pic and ad. Ive talked to Gulfcoast many of times and they are nice folks and I dont doubt their Blaze Goini are just what they are supposed to be. It does point out an issue I always use against people who hybridize in that one you cant trust anything else they do to a certain extent. Look at Rainer's Brooksi X Eastern cross to make a hypo looking Eastern Kingsnake. Now if someone pops up a weird hypo Eastern it will be crapped upon because Rainer tainted that "possible mutataion" with that cross. Also how is that cross going to b represented by other people ? Rainer is an honest snake breeder but his honesty extends only to his frontdoor because once something is out there you have no control over it. People who make hybrids and unnatural crosses will lose credibility for sure because of it and if they want to bring a legit new mutation to the "industry" they will be met with strong skepticism. Thats the same boat Gulf Coast is in, people will doubt anything they sell thats new and different . I know they dont misrepresent anything in that they have always made available the info on what is what I just think its irresponsible to make such animals to begin with.

Keith

.

I for one will not buy any snake from someone whom breeds hybrids because it makes me question what they are selling. Even Gulf Coast Reptiles does not correctly advertise their snakes. They had snow and axanthic "goini" listed on the classifieds not too long ago when they should have listed them as Florida Kings X "goini". I asked GC why they listed these animals only as "goini" and they told me this: "Sometimes it's just too lengthy to advertise the genetic makeup of some of the colubrids that are currently available." Now some person is going to buy one of those thinking it's a true "goini" and that person is going to tell other people the same thing. But I guess I'll be here to tell them the truth.

What a crock of s..t !

I don't know about you guys but I make it a priority to spread the word not to encourage any dealings with anyone breeding hybrids AND that are also selling pure animals.

Lets face it, freakin hybrids are here to stay, lets make sure newcomers know who not to deal with...

SEAN,
That is an absolute lie and I will be the first to tell you that you are a liar. What I told you is that is too lengthy to put all the background info on the message board, and like I told you personally when you called, they are integrades, not pure. I made no secret of that to you, and no one tried to misrepresent anything to you and you got your nose bent out of joint. Grow up and get a life.
Chris McQuade

Got AWFULLY QUIET in here all of a sudden.......... maybe dey git demsefs confused about da Goins / Hybrids.......... da Goins.......... she don know WHO heah bebe dadday IS!!!!!!!!!!

Later man

Dean

Now if someone pops up a weird hypo Eastern it will be crapped upon because Rainer tainted that "possible mutataion" with that cross

Keith
I am not sure what you mean. Are you saying that because I introduced a hypo brooksi to an Eastern king the possiblity of someone making "money" from a pure hypo would be ruined?

Lets say Joe Smith gets a normal pair of Apalachicolas and he produces a hypo that is the same type of hypo gene (the same allele) as the brooksi. How is it ruined? Is it the earning potential of that snake? Was it ruined because he or she cannot get big $$ for the snake?

If it is not the same recessive trait then there was no harm done!

Either way, the snake will be fine. Just the earning potential of the breeder is your arguement.

Is this what we are talking about here? Making money off a new pure morph? Seems to me like that is your only arguement. Because the animals will survive just fine without us. Really!

What's more important? That the animals are preserved pure (as morphs) or that a breeder who LUCKED into the breeding makes a big payday?

Well it is more important that the animal is preserved in its pure form but it would not hurt to make a little money either.
We can have both. It's called integrity but more on that later in this post.

Lets take a look at what happened to the rosy boa market in the mid 90's. For those of you who remember the rosys were crossed from different locales and then dropped in price from $350 for a locale specific animal to $50 for any pure locale rosy. These impure rosys locales were being sold as something else from west coast to east coast herpers back in the mid 90's. The east caost herpers did not know any better and the market crashed as a result. Not a good thing for breeders who bred pure locales for the money$$. Soon interest waned and the rosy market diminished . People lost interest..but in the long run it was great for the rosys and the "true" rosy afficianados. As a result of the low prices herpers stopped taking them out of the wild and the pure locales remained pure. The pure rosy locales survived just fine. The few herpers that really care about the animals (and not cash value) are just as enthusiastic today as ever.

The rosys survived the inbreeding and so will the getula. Since I have known you, you have done a good job popularizing the getula group. Having an interest in something is always better when you have others to share your interest with. I feel that is important because it more fun that way when someone else can appreciate what you have discovered or produced.

People who make hybrids and unnatural crosses will lose credibility for sure

Keith we will just have to agree to dissagree on the popularity of hybrids. They are the best sellers I have. I also sell out at shows on hybrids when other breeders do not. Look at people like Kathy Love, Osborne, BHB, Mark Bell and a host of all top notch large scale breeders who also sell and breed hybrids. Hybrids are here to stay and so are the breeders. Their credibility is just fine and will stay intact even though you say differently. I beleive educating people on the differences of a pure animal and a hybrid and represnting them as pure or a mix is better than trying to intimidate others into not buying them. This has been accomplished with corns and rosys and other hybrid crosses. I don't see why it would be any different with other newer hybrids.

But discouraging with a brow beating style (calling hybrids evil, hate mongering towards a breeder... ect) and doing it in a way to create fear in a newbie crowd is very deceiving and raises suspicions. I just do not agree with some of the methods and some explanations of some posters. It is a small group of these hateful keyboard warriors who in real life probably have some serious problems. Sending me hateful emails and (I have your IP addys)and then continually posting on my threads on other forums to just spread hate and bring up the hybrid issue is beyond me. I am not complaining, I just feel sorry for you. Otherwise I would identify you (post your emails) and expose your true characters.
To the posters who said they would never buy from a breeder that sells or breeds hybrids..well that would eliminate almost every top notch large breeder in the U.S. I guess you included me in good company.
Thank you!
Rainer

Rainer

First off I hope Im just misreading your post but are you accusing me of sending you hate emails ? I hope not as I don't stoop that low and if I did send some sort of email of that nature I would ALWAYS identify myself . Again maybe I just read the
post wrong.

I could give a rats a$$ about some dealer not making money on a Hypo Eastern King if that happened . What I meant was if from a hobbyist standpoint if a hypo Eastern King came into existence say a few years from now I would probably want one not to make money but because I like Eastern Kings. What would suck is I would be very hesitant to purchase it as you outcrossed the Brooksi hypo mutation into Easterns. It leaves me with more doubt than I would already have. I think you may have misidentified me as a investor Im not in this hobby to turn dollars but because I love snakes . Of course I don't want to lose money either and any money I make from them usually goes into more snakes that I like . So as a hobbyist and not a dealer I would love to see a real Hypo Eastern King.

Hybrids may be your bestseller but if they sold so well for everyone else there would be more for sale on the classified and 3 times as many forums about them but there isn't. Look at the
hybrid forum it has the same 7 dudes posting on it. Also don't equate your personal good sales of hybrids to their popularity as Ive seen those wholesalers in FL banging those lame "Jurassic Milks" for over a year.

The credibility of those people you mentioned is fine as yours is . What I meant was if they or you popped something out that maybe didn't look right then its gonna be met with more skepticism then if Terry Dunham popped it out or Casey Lazik. For every dealer you mention selling Hybrids I'll tell you 20 more who aren't so that's a moot point. Rainer with hybrids its not about the original breeder as Ive said I respect you as a snake breeder and find you to be a nice guy in the couple of phone conversations we've had and I have no doubt you keep careful record and divulge allrelevant info regarding your snakes. My main gripe is thateveryone else isn't as careful i.e. some dude selling albino Goini Kings. I think to breed to things together just to satisfy ones wonder and curiosity is irresponsible. Also if anyone is sending hate emails that's pretty low and nutless Im a firm believer in throwing your name down on any email or other correspondence hence I always use my full name on posts etc.. so people know who they are dealing with good or bad.

Keith

I could give a rats a$$ about some dealer not making money on a Hypo Eastern King if that happened . What I meant was if from a hobbyist standpoint if a hypo Eastern King came into existence say a few years from now I would probably want one not to make money but because I like Eastern Kings. What would suck is I would be very hesitant to purchase it as you outcrossed the Brooksi hypo mutation into Easterns

I don't know if you missed it or not but I stated in my earlier post:
If it is not the same recessive trait then there was no harm done!

If you have a hypo eastern and it is the same hypo gene then it would be from the same allele. If it was not the same gene then you would have something new and nobody would be able to dispute that. Either way there is no way to create a fake hypo eastern.
Let me explain it another way. My peanut Butter brooksi are a type of hypomelanism. They are not the same hypomelanism that the original "hypo" came from. I crossed the Love strain hypo to my Peanut Butter and they all came out hets. Does that explain it better? The term hypo was already taken. But there are different types of hypomelanism and the likleyhood they would cross certain lines is possible but highly improbable.

Hybrids may be your bestseller but if they sold so well for everyone else there would be more for sale on the classified and 3 times as many forums about them but there isn't. Look at the
hybrid forum it has the same 7 dudes posting on it. Also don't equate your personal good sales of hybrids to their popularity as Ive seen those wholesalers in FL banging those lame "Jurassic Milks" for over a year.

They Jurassic have not been around long enough for others to sell them and breed. Maybe this will be the first year we will see more of them . However the first couple years only het to het breedings where done so the people breeding tyhem are from f1' and they have F2's This means they are possible hets and will not produce the same nice hybrids Jurassics.
The Florida people you see "banging them out" by posting on the classifieds are brokers who get the culled out Jurassics from F1 generations. They are wholsaled out to brokers by Andy Barr. Anyway I am not here to give a hybrid lesson on the kingsnake forum. Breeding hybrids is more more complicated than breeding morphs. Bottom line these are not the same Jurassics. My best ones went without advertising. The rest within one hour on the classifieds. Thats very fast.

What I meant was if they or you popped something out that maybe didn't look right then its gonna be met with more skepticism then if Terry Dunham popped it out or Casey Lazik.

There are other ways to judge if someone is credible than if they breed hybrids. What if a breeder has other credibility issues but does not breed hybrids? I think there are more important criteria to judge by before buying from a breeder.

BTW Keith, you misread my post. I never accused you of sending me hate mail.

To everyone else who jumped on my back..
I started this thread to point out that someone was misrepresnting some hybrid animals on the classified forums and I get persecuted for it. All I did was ask the right questions. I did not even point a finger at anyone. Next time I might not point out a possible hoax as freely with this board. After all who would know better than a hybrid breeder. Sounds like you could use me around here to fend off some evil crosses.

Well Rainer how would you know if it is or isnt ? You would have to raise it to adulthood and breed it to one of your EasternXBrooksi creations. So we are looking at 2 years at best and if its not a male then we are looking at wasting a female's breeding year to see if it is an offshoot from your animals. So dont make it out to sound so simple.

Keith

Well you would not have to plug it into one of MY animals but ANY hypo brooksi would work and do the job. It would prove itself related or not. If you only had a female that you found in the wild this might be a problem but only for a short time since a male het could be used to plug into a female hypo brooksi and that would not be wasting anything.. But a hypo would probably come from a het to het breeding and then your chances of getting a male is higher. Then you would want to hold onto all of these anyway to raise up into adulthood. So time is not an issue.

I bred my new amel Falmes floridana to a anery floridana from BHB. I had a hunch and it was right. I got only two eggs from the breeeding. One hatched out normal and the other was an anery. While this still does not prove anything except what I probably have is a type of snow floridana. I still cannot explain the pink color on top and some of the yellows?

Point is why would I anywone to sell a new morph right away anyway. If someone pays the price and money is all your interested in then more power to you. But I would hope that the breeder would want to work with and plug into other morphs. One way to tell a fake albino greyband is plug it into a amel rutheni. I beleive we could tell by looking at the animal anyway because there are so many hybrid greybands out there.

Keith you mentioned that you like to keep up with whats new with hybrids so that we can tell what is fake and is new to the hobby. I believe we would be able to tell a fake hypo goini from something new. Look at my Peanut Butters. They look different but I still plugged my male PB into a hypo and got all hets . That proves no relation and it is a new recessive. It also might create a new "never seen" morph because of the double het to double het breeding in the future.

Good point Keith.

Same story on the albino greyband/ruthvens really if someone is lucky enough to hatch out pure albino alterna no one will believe that's what they are and the price ( which should be higher than for the mix ) will suffer because of it. But then there are more examples that that of the problem. Sad part is they seem to be here to stay. The hybrids that is.

Phil

The same Phillip who recently started trolling on the hybrid forum?

Phillip, again you have chosen to ignore my replies and start something that has already been explained in my post. Seems to me you don't have a reading problem but just a problem period.

You don't want a debate you just hate people who breed hybrids and want to mess with them for your pleasure.

I guess I will see you following me on the rosy, sand and rubber forum next. My very own personal troll.

Pointing out something pertinent to the subject is far from trolling. Of course I wouldn't expect someone helping the problem to grow to understand that.

And funny but I don't recall mentioning you at all here nor do I recall directing this post to or at you. Seems as if the problem is yours. Or would that just be a guilty dog barking?

Phil

Hi Guys;

been reading the string of traffic here since a friend forwarded something to me last night on this subject. I would have NO DOUBT whatsoever that the Blaze goins are the REAL DEAL. I've known Chris & Sheila for quite some time now & it NOT their style to mis-represent anything they breed OR sell. I was at their place last fall looked over & handled practically ALL their breeding stock of blaze phase Goins...... after having Goins off & on for some 20 years & seeing what they had on their premises I have drooled over the thought of having something so nice in my collection.

It would seem to me that whenever somebody produces something nice, different & something nobody else has it's either a 'hybrid' OR 'the color has been enhanced on the pictures'..... you know their really ARE Herpers out there that are honestly sucesssful......... why don't we congratulate people when they produce something different. It was only this time last year Chris & Sheila produced patternless black Ball Python's & some LOSER on the Ball Python forum started babbling on & on about how THEY saw & handled them @ Daytona were defective, clft paletts, spinal kinks which they felt........... bla, bla, bla. Well I know for a fact those same black balls were only there on display just to show spectators & other exhibitors what Gulf Coast had produced..... these snakes we presold & their was no way Chris or Sheila were letting ANYBODY just come up & handle those snakes. Sadly enough the person bashing those same snakes the hardest was somebody who has secured himself a pretty high place in the production of Balls........ I think it just came down to jealousy!!!!

As a Canadian who rarely gets to any of these big shows like Daytona & whatnot I've been fortunate enough to make friends with a lot of the Pioneers of the Herp World down in Florida, Chris & Sheila McQuade, Billy & Kathy Love, Tom Crutchfield & a host of others. Some of these people have become close friends & mentors if you would. I personally get a little tired of the bashing that goes on in here from time to time & not only this forum but many others........ what ever happened to comradary???? Anyone THAT curious about Gulf Coast producing Hybrids just walk up to their table @ Daytona & ask them personally.

Just my two cents guys...... sorry to rant & rave but don't like seeing my friends get picked apart by individuals that have no idea what their talking about.

Have a good one!!!

Dean

such a question is being asked by a hard core hybridizer!

Can you even see the very light of your own question?

Sad ! Even if it where a pure amel. Guys like you made sure that any pure mutation strain that pops up will be forever questioned...

Playball is right.

Some people mix everything with everything else... There was even a post of a (WOW!) Floridana mixed with a Getula

WOWEE!! You artificially created the naturally occuring intergrade between the florida and the eastern chain... Kudo's to you man ~ what a BREAKTHROUGH!!!!!

And, by the way, is not the "Goini" just an intergrade anyway? so what if a Florida is mixed in there? It happens in nature anyway.

Get over yourselves and your own "so-and-so" and "big-name" stock animals. I am sick of all you "breeders" - I am starting to think that you are believing your own hype.

I am sticking with no-name, regular pattern / color animals. I am sure that they are prettier and healthier than anything that some big-name in this post has to offer.

Peter

Its funny how you and sweet pickle have been targeting me with your hateful posts. Don't you know life is short.

blurosey,

you are right - i was venting... i don't want to turn this into another "feud".

my apologies.

Guess the truth hurts eh!

I own three snakes: A wc eastern king that I picked up in early spring, when it was flooded out of brumation and a pair of the Tom Chiang/Terry Dunham amel strain. Since there isn't much evidence to suggest that this line is "pure" eastern then I must be a hybrid breeder. That's fine and I can accept the monicer, but what bearing does that have on my honest attempt to locate a locality female to breed to my rescued male eastern? I'm currently working with area nature centers to house captive bred examples of their locality eastern kings.

These are two seperate issues and most of the people involved in this hobby participate, at a tremendous cost to themselves, because they respect the creatures they raise. To cast dispersions on someone's word because you don't agree with them on other issues is, in my opinion, rather childish. I would hope that in the future adults can discuss the many facets of an issue without resorting to infantile name calling and hyperbole.

Disgusted with the lot of you,

Bob

reading this or commenting on this shouldn't be blasting bluerosy. He has come on here and identified a hybrid being passed of as pure and is getting flak for helping just because he happens to like hybrids. Whether you like them or not hybrids are here to stay. Why? For the same reason pure snakes are here to stay, because people like them. If you don't like hybrids fine, I don't either but people like bluerosy and even other big hybrid breeders don't deserve this. If you followed bluerosy's posts as I have on the Rosy/Rubber/Sand Boa forum and new anything about the natural history of Rosy Boas you would know that he is an expert on pure Rosy Boas as well as an expert on hybridization.
He is a perfect example of how it matters not what you breed, the only thing that matters is character and record keeping. To critcize bluerosy personally or to catagorically criticize all hybrid breeders only calls into question yourself because you either don't know him or you don't have records on your own snakes good enough to be sure they are not hybrids.