Reptile & Amphibian Forums

We are supposed to have very cold temps tonight then our first hard freeze Wed night. By Thursday temps are supposed to be no higher than the 30s in daytime. Then the rest of the week the weather channel says nighttime temps are going to be in the 20s every night for the rest of the week.
I got a call from the same person who saved the hatchling last summer from being eaten by his dog. The one I ended up releasing near the pond at that local nature center.
These people live in a regular neighborhood with houses built closely together, manicured lawns, lots of people, dogs & cats in the neighborhood... not like our outskirts of town neighborhood where it's a little more like living in the country.
Anyway...
They decided to revamp the lawn in the backyard, so they had it torn out to put in a new lawn. When they did this they dug up another box hatchling then kept it in the house for the kids for a while.
Now they don't want it for a pet so with the temps about to drop dramatically.. what would all of you suggest that they do with this baby? I didn't suggest anything yet, I told him I'd call him back because I didn't want to suggest anything without consulting all of you who deal with hatchlings so often.
TIA for ideas.
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PHRatz

I wouldn't release it until the spring. Turtles are tough, but it's asking a lot to give the turtle only a day to find decent cover. It would need significant cover for 20 degree nightly temps.

If there's habitat within 1 mile or so, I'd say release the turtle there in the spring. If not, adopt it out to a good home. We have the same problem here...housing developments are going up like crazy. You'll have a 10 or 20 acre plot in the middle of suburbia that's been there forever. Then, it's gone in a day. The turtles scatter, and I find them on the roads (often horribly maimed from the machinery). So, what do you do? It's clearly against the Wildlife Resources Commission policy to release them in another territory outside of the theoretical range of the individual turtle. With most of these plots, there isn't another adequate habitat for 10 or so miles.

Release if possible, but I prefer loving captivity over releasing in a crowded neighborhood. Of course, they always have the option to do what you did...wait several years to have lazy, lawn-napping construction workers take forever to construct a concrete wall bordering their backyard

I look forward to the updates.

Ken, thank you so much for a quick response.
You are helping the turtle, but not ME!! I'm sitting here saying NO NO NO you (meaning me) can't take it! LOL
Why else did they call ME?
They know who the suckers are!

BUT ya know I can't let these people put it back in the backyard at this moment.
Hobo my wild boy has been underground for a whole month already & he's a grizzled old adult who knows what he's doing.
This is a teensy baby who's been dug up then in the house for at least 2 weeks being a plaything for the kids.
OY what to do, what to do..
I'll mull this over while I have lunch... that'll buy me some time. hee hee
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PHRatz

If it hadn't been dug up, it probably would have stayed under and been OK....go figure. I agree that it should be kept inside over the winter and released in spring: it really is a little short notice, weather wise.

>>If it hadn't been dug up, it probably would have stayed under and been OK....go figure. I agree that it should be kept inside over the winter and released in spring: it really is a little short notice, weather wise.

That's just it, the baby was dug up by accident so whattya do?
Thanks for the input, I wanted both you & Ken to chime in on this.
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PHRatz

>>Release if possible, but I prefer loving captivity over releasing in a crowded neighborhood. Of course, they always have the option to do what you did...wait several years to have lazy, lawn-napping construction workers take forever to construct a concrete wall bordering their backyard

BTW, GRRRR I get so mad everytime I think about those lazy idiots!! I did tell didn't I? DH ended up finishing about 3/4 of the pen himself & then didn't pay these guys for what they didn't do.
Part of the reason why we got such lousy workers is because of the housing boom that's going on here right now. It's hard as heck to find anyone to do a job for you because they are already too busy.
Ok so you know I do have room to build a pen within a pen if need be later on..
Oh gosh you know what's going to happen, I'll post pictures soon.
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PHRatz

Ken wrote:

"So, what do you do? It's clearly against the Wildlife Resources Commission policy to release them in another territory outside of the theoretical range of the individual turtle"

Can someone tell me more about this? I was thinking of releasing T. Herman on state game land (a suggestion from my sherriff's deputy friend, the guy with the soft spot for turtles, helping them cross streets), quite a distance from where where he was found. This would have been illegal?

Bill

>>Can someone tell me more about this? I was thinking of releasing T. Herman on state game land (a suggestion from my sherriff's deputy friend, the guy with the soft spot for turtles, helping them cross streets), quite a distance from where where he was found. This would have been illegal?
>>
>>Bill

Can you please clarify if the "T Herman" you are referring to is a name you gave the turtle or if it is actually referring to the scientific name of Testudo hermanii (Herman's Tortoise)? If you are talking about the tortoise then it would be flat out illegal for you to release the tortoise in your state or any US state. It's against the law to release any non-native animals in a place they don't occur naturally. Herman's tortoises are native to Europe.
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PHWyvern

Wyvern,
"T. Herman" is the eastern box turtle's name...there are photos and an explanation about the naming in a recent thread around here somewhere...

I forgot about this thread.... No, T. Herman is not the sci. name of a turtle as Steph pointed out.

Would it have illegal to release T. Herman greater than some distance from where he was found?

Speaking of T. Herman, one here said that the he was around 15-25 yrs old. Will my CB three-toed grow faster than that since he/she gets more food as a pet?

My red-eared slider grew a LOT in one year - I realized after a while I should not feed her til he stops eating, but far before she seems "full"

"Would it have illegal to release T. Herman greater than some distance from where he was found?"

You would probably be best off contacting the DNR in your state to find out exactly what the regulations are regarding release criteria in your area.

"Speaking of T. Herman, one here said that the he was around 15-25 yrs old. Will my CB three-toed grow faster than that since he/she gets more food as a pet?"

I'm not really sure what you mean by this question...faster than what?
Captive turtles usually do grow more quickly as a result of being fed on a more regular basis, so it will probably reach its mature size sooner than it would have in the wild.

Like Steph said, every state is different. States are slowly beginning to adopt regulations that prohibit the release of non-native species, the relocation of native species, and the release of "captives". In some states, even if you want to release the Box turtle that you found in your backyard and have kept for several years, you are not permitted to do so even though you can place it in the exact spot where it was found.

The reasons for these regulations include the spreading of disease and invasive pathogens as well as the "un-natural" spread of genes. If you've studied any population dynamics in your biology courses, you can at least understand their reasoning. Some states are trying to be ahead of the curve on this one, and are enacting regulations at even the slightest reinforcement from research.

Most will quote the case of the Desert tortoise in California for the release of "captives", even if native. Someone collected a Desert tortoise for a pet, kept it for a few years, then released it approximately where it was found. During it's stay in captivity, it acquired some sort of respiratory pathogen which it then proceeded to spread to other wild tortoises. That's the case in a nutshell.

Theoretically, releasing a turtle away from its likely home range could spread diseases and genes that could negatively impact the population into which it is released.

I don't think I'd release any turtle when sub freezing temps are expected so soon, and I don't think I'd release a hatchling for the winter at all.

Around the time I became interested in box turtles my father-in-law introduced me to his next door neighbor who had a backyard turtle habitat. He had some of his turtles in pens, and some he let roam all over his backyard, and if they got out, they got out. He showed me some babies that had survived the winter and he also showed me some sad little empty shells, babies that didn't survive the winter. I don't think there is anything wrong if a "keeper" allows nature to take its course, so long as they've provided enough cover and resources to give them a fighting chance, but I don't choose to do that.

I think its better to give hatchlings that are already inside a fighting chance and keep them in for the first winter, especially if they don't have much time to become aclimated to being outside, and don't have much time to find good hibernating spots before you get into a serious freeze.

I'm keeping Dottie (adult ornate) and another juvi ornate inside for awhile. I may put them out in late winter for a shorter hibernation period, but I will have to find a mild week to put them out, when they will have time to get aclimated to cool weather, before it really gets cold again.

Just my .02 worth!

Lisa your .02 is worth a lot right now.
I hate the idea of that baby being put outside right now so you know.. I'll end up with it. Sucker than I am...

I can't even stand the idea of nature taking it's course for those in my own yard. Although in a way that already happened to me 2 years ago with Hope when Destiny the sulcata bent the pen I had then & Hope left home.
I still hope she's ok out there & I'll still look for her I guess forever.

This year I kept the same turtles indoors again because that pen that the lazy didn't get completed soon enough was finished so late in the year I was afraid to leave everyone outside because I felt like they really need an entire season of full time outdoor living before I allow them to try staying out in winter as Hobo does. When I found out that the Abilene Zoo where I have a friend working overwinters their ornates & it hasn't caused them any harm either.. I didn't feel so bad about keeping these girls in for another winter.
.... When my class was there at the zoo in Oct. & their ornates were inside they were quite the happy pair, we got to see a turtle porn show. LOL
I thought it was educational though because none of the students had ever seen breeding turtles before....

I would eventually though like to have my girls live a more natural life outdoors all the time. Hopefully by next spring we can get that done.
If you need to keep a couple of them inside for the whole winter I don't think you'll be causing them any real harm.
Oy DH is gonna LOVE this when he gets home today. hee hee
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PHRatz

Well, I, for one, am extremely envious! Just think, a new baby in the house!!
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0.1.0 ornate box turtle
1.0.0 eastern box turtle
1.0.0 Yellow belly slider
0.1.0 Red belly cooter
0.1.0 Australian shepard
1.12.0 chickens
3.2.0 children (do I still count the married ones?)
1.0.0 husband

Nature is a funny thing.

Left undisturbed, the hatchling would have a tough time it's first winter but a definite chance. Nature would have not only slowed it's metabolism, but endowed it instinctively to slowly search and dig with great persistence to get below the frost line in a damp area. Additionally it would have left it with an empty gut so food would not rot in it's intestines which would inevitably cause serious illness.

Left undisturbed nature would have also increased this hatchling's blood sugar to let it act as a form of natural antifreeze. It's endocrine system would have slowly secreted hormones preparing it's body to behave very differently for the winter.

Instead it's awakened and it's system prepares for the change. Being brought inside for a while with higher temperatures, light and food sets it's internal systems to prepare for spring! It has no fat reserves and it's metabolism is in high gear for optimum growth.

Now a seasoned adult sometimes can sometimes get switched back; but sadly not a fragile hatchling.

With the temperature about to drop dramatically; and the rationale above, I would plead with you to keep it inside. Not the answer you desired; but the answer and reason you are...

Ric K.

Yes a new baby in the house
If this one had not been dug up by accident then brought indoors as a toy for kids.. there would be no dilema. Who goes out digging up the ground to purposely find hatchlings? It wouldn't be me.
I'm sure without intervention baby doesn't have a chance at all.

I signed on this AM because I wanted to print a copy of that news story that broke yesterday .. the one about how exotic pets will make you sick & could be worse than terrorism... seems like I read this same story year after year, it just always has a little different slant on it each time it "breaks."
This time it seems to be saying that all exotic pets we have were wild caught. As if hamsters are deadly & they haven't been captive bred in this country for over 50 years.. PUH-leaze.
I have class today, it's a good news item to discuss in class.
Sorry I am a bit riled up about that one today. lol
SO
I had to run over here to give an update on the baby.
You know me, I'm picking up baby this afternoon.
I'll get pics & an update ASAP.
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PHRatz