Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This is the same message that I sent to Neal via email. I am too tired to edit it, so I will just copy and paste it:

"Also, what type of dirt do you use? From the looks of the photos, it appears to be from outdoors, probably a creekbed. What would you recommend for a store bought mix? The ground is mostly clay here, even in the dried-up creekbed and everywhere else on our 27 acres of land. I have tried loads of mixes, and none of them yeilded much burrowing. On a couple of them I got a few short burrows. But, that was over a long period of time, and I know that they burrow more than that. I guess I would say that I have had the most burrowing on some pure topsoil from lowes, but I don't think that I remember any especially deep ones, and actually I remeber them being just below the surface. I also tried this mixed with sand, but I think that it also became too compact down a little ways, as well as drying out especially fast from not compacting any at the surface. Right now I have them on peat/sand. They burrowed on this mix some when they were younger, but since the few days ago that I added it, they have not even seemed to try starting a burrow. I think that it is to spongey/fluffy for good burrowing now that they have some weight on them. I am now thinking of trying this mixed with the topsoil/sand mix. I have played with it in a plastic container, and it seems to be better than either. It appears to hold a burrow as well as the pure topsoil/sand, but isn't quite so hard to dig through. But, if I add to much peat, it doesn't seem to hold very well. Too little, and it is hard to dig through. What do you think about using this mixture? I think that I am going to try the change, but I will give the peat/sand a few more days of chance.
I think I might have tried this once unsuccessfully, but I added too much peat."

It may be difficult to read and understand, because like mentioned, I am very tired. I don't care much about grammar at this point.

Thanks,
Ryan

Exactly what are your problems with dirt? I ask because, it seems to me, that most here do not get the whole dirt thing. For instance they often say, they are not burrowing, or, I changed the dirt and they are feeding better. The dirt does not effect how they eat, you can raise them up without problem on newspaper or sawdust. As so many here mention, its not the best, but those not so good substrates will work.

Dirt is to add benefit to keeping monitors, but its not necessary with day to day living. If your monitor feeds differently when changing the dirt, its because its bored out of its mind and or very insecure.

When raising or general keeping of ackies, type of dirt is not so critical. There are secondary things like dark soils staining a beautiful monitor black. Its ugly, but does not harm the monitor. The ability to hold a burrow is all about moisture levels in the dirt, not so much type of dirt.

Even with nesting and reproduction there is indeed different grades of dirt. For instance, poor nesting soil will only allow 2 or 3 hatchable clutches a year. Excellent nesting conditions, soil and kept in the right conditions, will allow up to 15 clutches a year. In your case, you would be happy with one clutch that hatches, yes??

So as a beginer, you need to conquer one step at a time. It starts with allowing your monitor to grow and progress, which is not dirt dependant. Then move on to monitor pairings(social behaviors) then on to bettering of the conditions that allow ackies to reach their potential. Remember, their potential starts with keeping them alive, then advancing from there.

So, dirt, is more of an advanced technique to work on. And its most likely not whats effecting your monitors. Unless your soil is so bad, radioactive or something, it actually is harmful.

So yes, you can come up with all sorts of average soil types from Home depot or other nursery stores.

Also information is about context. If you ask me or Neal what dirt is THE BEST. You have to consider the context of your question and the context of our experience. I don't believe anyone has ever asked for the second or third best. They always ask for the best, not what can work and be improved on as you learn. Cheers

My ackies seem to be doing better by now. They don't eat as enthusiastically as they used to, but they do eat crickets and pinkies. They seem to usually eat overnight or whenever I don't bug them just by being in the room. Occasionally, I get to see them eat immediately after I introduce crickets to the cage. But, they still seem to feed more aggressively on roaches, actually chasing them across the cage every time they are put in there. I guess it is just a preference.

I guess you could say that they are socially bonded now, since I have had them together since they were a few weeks old. I remember the male chasing the female around the cage a few times when they were less than a few months old, but have not since seen this behavior. They now seem to co-exist quite peacefully, and now the male allows the female to share the same basking and hiding spots, unlike when they were youger. They are about a year old. But, since the lack of feeding as of late, they have not reached the size they have the potential to grow in this period of time. The male is at least 14 inches, but could be a little larger. I guess I would say the female is a few weeks to a month (maybe a month and a half) younger, but is still too small for her age.

What is my problem with the soil you say? It is that they do burrow on some of the mixes I have tried, but not much. They do dig more than a couple burrows in a month don't they? Another problem is that some of the mixes dried very quickly, leaving my monitors dehydrated and with shedding problems. When I switched to the peat/sand mix, which holds moisture better, they seemed to hydrate, shed a little better and, because of the re-hydration, ate better. They, however, don't seem to want to dig on this mixture. With the topsoil mix, the top layer dried down to basically sand down an inch or two within a couple days. I dumped water on this, but they still didn't burrow in these parts and the same dried up area resulted in a couple days. It also seemed to be hard to dig through down at the lower layers (although a couple of burrows extended this far). I have tried an almost pure clay dirt from around our pond, but even though they tried to dig, it never happened. If the soil was dried out enough to dig in, it would no longer hold a burrow.

So, rather than the "best" soil, I need one that will not seal up and be impossible to dig through, yet can hold a burrow as well. It also needs to have good moisture-holding capabilities. I will go look outside again today and/or tomorrow. But, I guess I will try with the previously mentioned mixture of topsoil/sand/a tiny bit of peat if I yeild no success in finding anything else.

Thanks,
Ryan

The dirt I'm using seems to work, but probably I will eventually find some better dirt as my understanding evolves. My understanding is not as deep a FR's. I am not at the point of allowing 15 clutches per year.

Anyhoo, it seems to me that digging up your own dirt is the way to go. I think you want to look for something without much organic material and a sort of balanced amount of fines, chunky stuff, and clay. To much clay is no good.

Cheers,
Neal

I am trying the leaf litter substrate Mr. Bayless described in 'Savnannah Monitors'.
Has anyone else attempted using the leaves/oak leaves idea?
My Basquiat seems pretty bored since I stopped feeding him crickets, and switched to frozen rodents.
-----
Christian M. Hidalgo
The Woodlands, TX 77381

No offense to the late Mr. Bayless, but Savs are earth burrowers. They use soil, not leaflitter. Usually arid(poor) soils.

All you have to do is look it up, there are a lot of monitor books out there that give habitat discriptions, and most/some mention soil types.

Basically the same soils used for Argus/gouldi etc. Cheers

I am not all that experienced with dirt. I have actually very little experience. But one thing that i have had in experience is that moisture does have a big key factor in the ability to hold a burrow as FR said. My monitors would only burrow in the moist end of the cage (also the cool end) and i thought that the monitors just wanted to burrow in the cool side. Untill Neal reminded me to moisten some of the warm side of the cage. Now they burrow on that side as well. So in my experience its moisture that makes it burrable and also they like the moisture.

Also remember that if your doing australian species that very little of their soil has many nutrients in it. So I look for dirt that grows very little amount of plants.

If I am incorrect on this just say so. Remember take the more experienced keepers words over mine.

cheers,
Sean

yes that just slipped my mind, all i hear about monitors all day is arid arid arid, heh but my "topsoil" does hold humidity decently, now to prowl for "deserted of nutrients" soil
heh
-----
Christian M. Hidalgo
The Woodlands, TX 77381

Hi Sean,

You want some moisture in the dirt, but not too wet. You may need to add some water to the dirt now and then, but I think you should be shooting for dirt that can hold a burrow even when dry.

Hi Neal,

Sorry if there was a misunderstanding, my burrows arnt wet. They are just moist. My dirt does hold burrows when it is not moist. Its just the monitors wont dig in it very often. They have only done it about once. I am trying to get some better dirt that allows them to dig more. Again just trying to help and not very experienced. It might crumble farther down in the burrow though. But i wouldnt know for sure.

From They dirt i have tested on my reptiles the dirt with less nutrients work better than the dirt that has tons of plants in it.

Still trying to learn.

Thanks for you help,
Sean

Australian dirt is the same as african dirt, and the same as arizona dirt. Its about the type of dirt or soil thats important, not what country it comes from. I am not a soil guy so I could really care less about the names, but, at one time I took some of my nesting dirt to the Arizona Sonora Desert Museum, they have a resident geologist. he have a book with over four hundred different soil types. But he could not find a good difintion of the soil I use. Its sorta a cross(like some of my monitors) a silty sand, is as good as he got. Cheers

i dont have enough for a burrow, but she does dig out little valleys, my dirt is more like the kind you would find in a forest.. with minute pieces of tree bark, believe it is more intended for planting/topsoil use...

haha its so humid here i can't imagine where i can dig up arid soil, sick of buying .99 store dirt... i was thinking she might feel more secure, able to hide in something other than wood/cork, because i cant stand the idea of her being both bored AND depressed, maybe just one or the other...

o'Canada!
o?
or oh?
isn't that confusing

haha actually maybe if i goto lubbock haha
-----
Christian M. Hidalgo
The Woodlands, TX 77381

damn potting soil!
-----
Christian M. Hidalgo
The Woodlands, TX 77381

Where in texas are you? I may be able to help.

This evening I found some dirt that doesn't appear to have too much clay in it. It is from a bare area in our yard, where even the tough bermuda (Sp?) grass doesn't grow well. It has a reddish tint to it, but I am hoping this is from the type of rock it came from and not some type of clay. I guess I will go try some "experimentation" on this stuff, and see what it does with different amounts of water and sand added.

Thanks,
Ryan

Okay, this dirt also has too much clay. This weekend, I am going to find some stuff that will work. I will try to find some sandy loam (any type of sandy soil) around the river or at some landscaping place. Preferably, though, I can find a supplier of decomposed granite.

With the decomposed granite, does it not really matter what the soil is, as long as it is fine grained? Also, decomposed granite is basically sand, right? But, instead of being made of quartz like beach and playsand, it is composed of granite? Just wondering what "decomposed" really meant when it comes to rock.

Thanks,
Ryan

My post about leaf litter substrate was incomplete, Bayless further suggested:

For burrows, bury a plastic/wooden box with soil in it under the leaf litter and see how the animals react.

Which is more lightweight/manageable for me, but I would definately appreciate your help. I am 30 miles north of houston, someone suggested Houston Garden Center yesterday, but that moved closer to downtown.

What did you have in mind FR?
Thanks
-----
Christian M. Hidalgo
The Woodlands, TX 77381

i forgot, month or two ago, I spent almost an hour looking for my ackie, actually both, at one time or another has totally buried themselves silly to the point where i totally dug the entire enclosure, afraid that somehow maybe they had gotten out

this was with $.99 store topsoil, and no i didn't have a heat pad underneath the cage, but that would work... heh maybe 1-2 bags of that stuff, same stuff i have now, hmmm, i would notice after they had disappeared for most of the day...

maybe we should just throw EVERYTHING we can find in there, then play the waiting game, and the ackies will sort it out, ahaha, im sitting here trying to figure out how my new futon will fit where my couch is now, and working my enclosures around that and the cold windows...

i tell ya, just pick a room and throw half the stuff from a construction site into a big mess, and you might get lucky with an anamorphic? living condition for these goannas. muck.
-----
Christian M. Hidalgo
The Woodlands, TX 77381

Can you guys describe the texture of the soil I should be shooting for? Also please describe the source of your soil. Pictures of it would be appreciated too.

Am I shooting for a soft, silty soil, or am I supposed to by looking for a gritty soil with slightly larger particles?

Sorry for more questions about so seemingly basic of a subject, but I would like to finally get this right. I can't believe I never thought of this before (not seriously, at least), but this weekend I am going to try to go an look at some soil on the banks of the river that flows near our town (the Arkansas River). I figure that I will be able to find a soil consisting of mostly sedimentary deposits. Hopefully, these deposits will be consisting of mostly sand/silt, rather than clay or similar. Clay is oh so common in these parts.

Thanks,
Ryan

I found a good description by Robyn in the archives. I guess you want it as fine as possible (not as fine as clay, though). You also want it to form as well as possible (holding the perfect shape of your finger if you stick it in it), yet, to be soft and easy to dig through, and maintaining these aspects over an extended period of time (not sealing up). Am I correct?

Thanks,
Ryan

ideally i picture soil from a desert region in the Southwest, for me I am in Houston and god forbid this place ever get dry, we are at like sea level
hmmm, i forgot what i was gonna do, but i remember frank saying he know a place in TX!

yeah, below is what i use, i don't care for the wood chips, but it hold humidity well, it just compacts together and gets hard, i have to fluff it, heh, with a gardening tool

-----
Christian M. Hidalgo
The Woodlands, TX 77381

30 miles north of Houston, thats somewhere around the Airport. Try the pine areas, with that whitish sandy stuff, no fire ants please, hahahahahahaha.

Most here forget to read about ackies. They mostly come from tropical areas, between the equator and the tropic line. Like, tropical deserts(Reds) tropical scrub, topenders. Semi arid to arid, seasonally wet areas, etc. Where you find yellow ackies there are crocodiles. hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Heck Reds also come from the beach. I mean right the heck on the beach. You know, like southeast of you, Padre Island and corpse area. They are even on islands and in estuaries, No kidding, surprised the heck out of me.

So giving me this southwest stuff is a little odd. As your only talking about me and not the ackies themselves. Reds come from areas more like where you live then where I live. Cheers

i used the picture of the ackies to show the dirt i am using, which i guess is really topsoil

but im actually referring to my savannah monitor burrowing/digging, although i guess the dirt couldn't too horribly different, huh?

i believe savvys live in just as many different environments, but good burrowing dirt is still burrowing dirt?

hmmm you know how often I carved shapes ("sand rocks" out of the playground in elementary school? damn damn damn, hmmm, heh little kids and their germs

you know doing errands/scrounging around for my monitors is one of the funnest things I enjoy? heheh, funner isn't a word right? gahahah

thanks FR.
-----
Christian M. Hidalgo
The Woodlands, TX 77381

ok, hah, look at this
http://www.mo15.nrcs.usda.gov/features/gallery/houston.html
Link

-----
Christian M. Hidalgo
The Woodlands, TX 77381