Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I was wondering what the deal is with the "leucistic" pine snake? Is it just an albino black pine? I've seen them called "northern leucistic, southern leucistic, and black leucistic." This confuses me, are there actually separate leucistics, or are people just getting them mixed up.

Also, what causes them to become leucistic? What happens when they are bred? Example, a black pine and a leucistic pine breed.... what pops out?

I guess I really dont know what "leucism" (if that is a word) really is.

Thanks very much for your time!

BTW: I wonder how many times I can say "leucistic" in one post? LOL
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Slipstream Serpents

My Reptile Family:
1.1.0 Leopard Geckos (Booger, Gimp)
1.0.0 Veiled Chameleon (Lucutis)
0.0.1 Quince Monitor (Pollux)
1.2.0 Thayeri Kingsnakes (Korben, Leeloo, Artax)
2.2.0 California Kingsnakes (Beetlejuice, Kang, Maraca, Kodos)
1.1.0 Bullsnakes (Hawker, Socata)

the word leucistic is of greek origin meaning clear or colorless. w/ pines it's usually associated w/ the southern sub as far as i know. it's not the same thing as albinoism however......

the commonly referred to albinism is more scientifically known as amelanistic which is a lack of melanin, or brown pigment, which makes black coloring. leucism is considered a lack of all pigment cell types which generally results in all white animals with little to no pattern, and light eyes, usually light blue. I would assume there could be leucistic versions of any ssp. of pit but i am also most familiar with the southerns. I am not a genetecist or anything but I think breeding a leucistic northern to a black northern would produce normal looking black babies and i am not sure of what type of genes they would have if leucism is dominant or recessive or anything like that, but there are other people on here that could help with that i guess...

Hmmmmm.... ok, amelanistic sounds right... so any of the pines can become leucistic? Anyone understand the genetics behind it? If not, can anyone point me towards a good info source?

I've read the pit page, and googled it, but still I have quesions.

I am interested in possibly getting one in the future, but I want to understand what it is before I decide.

Thanks very much for the help so far.
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Slipstream Serpents

My Reptile Family:
1.1.0 Leopard Geckos (Booger, Gimp)
1.0.0 Veiled Chameleon (Lucutis)
0.0.1 Quince Monitor (Pollux)
1.2.0 Thayeri Kingsnakes (Korben, Leeloo, Artax)
2.2.0 California Kingsnakes (Beetlejuice, Kang, Maraca, Kodos)
1.1.0 Bullsnakes (Hawker, Socata)

as far as i know-it's a type of albinism,but not the same as amelanism....it's only been seen in mugitus(florida/'southern' pines)....if you bred one to a black pine you'd get offspring that are black,and het for leucism....i have one female leucistic mugitus myself,unfortunately she did not produce eggs this year despite locking up with a big male i have;maybe next year....i'll go out on a limb here and say i speak for many when i ask you to avoid the temptation to mix and match subspecies-and species-when breeding pines,most in the hobby prefer to know the origin/lineage of our snakes and will not buy mutts produced in captivity.i can think of much worse examples than a black x florida pine breeding-that's a natural integrade albeit a very rarely seen one-but most including myself would prefer a pure snake.while captive breeding gives us the ability to create snakes that usually would not occur in nature,it also gives us the ability to keep bloodlines as pure and true to origin as possible,right down to locale specificty....imho the hobby's genetic diversity within the subspecies of mugitus,and lodingi for that matter,appear fine with no indications of needing our bolstering.

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"with head raised regally,and gazing at me with lidless eyes,he seemed to question with flicks of his long forked tongue my right to trespass on his territory" Carl Kauffeld

ok, now I am not saying I disagree with your opinion as far as locality bloddlines remaining pure, or wether I feel the same because I do feel the same way for my snakes not to be crossed, but to speak for such a large crowd such as our community or hobby and hold a difinitive opinion and say most of us feel the same way isn't exactly right, there is a very large crowd that only deals with subspecies as well as species hybrids and to say most of us feel one way or another wouldn't be accurate. I am not trying to start a flame war or anything like that and your opinion is just as valid as anybody else here but discouraging someone based on your opinion and trying to validate it by saying it is the majority opinion didn't seem right here. not to mention it isn't as big of a deal for a cross that could occur in nature and as long as he keeps track of the blood and doesn't say it is a pure animal it shouldn't be a problem if the breeding is successful.

I dont even own anything het for crap.My fear is that its been crossed with something it shouldnt have.Im not saying that the breeders in this great forum cross anything.They seem to be hardcore local fanatics and it's one of the reasons I like it here.

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If lead paint is so deadly why do they make it so delicious?

I hear you on that. I was reading something in the classifieds about pine/bull crosses. They were trying to say how great they are because they hatched out in 54 days, shed immediately after leaving the eggs and then again three days later. To me, that sounds pretty screwed up. That can't be healthy. Speaking for myself, I can't expect those hatchlings to make it that long. If they're just going to shed their life away they might not eat and therefore starve themselves to death.

I'm really not a fan of cross breeds, never have been and never will be. It just feels like someone is effin up the way things are supposed to be and creating unhealthy animals in the process.

I didn't mean to bring up the dreaded hybrid war with this post. I merely wanted to understand leucism. I have no desire to breed hybrids at this time... that is why I wanted to learn about it first. I am interested in both black pines and the leucistics. I didnt know which pine the leucistic was, that's why I ask. Now that I know it is a Florida pine, I won't be breeding one with a black any time soon.

Personally, I have nothing against hybrids as long as the breeder is honest about it. I'm just not ready to jump on that wagon just yet.

So, from what you guys have said... it is NOT a hybrid when a leucistic and a florida pine are bred?
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Slipstream Serpents

My Reptile Family:
1.1.0 Leopard Geckos (Booger, Gimp)
1.0.0 Veiled Chameleon (Lucutis)
0.0.1 Quince Monitor (Pollux)
1.2.0 Thayeri Kingsnakes (Korben, Leeloo, Artax)
2.2.0 California Kingsnakes (Beetlejuice, Kang, Maraca, Kodos)
1.1.0 Bullsnakes (Hawker, Socata)

The first I ever heard about leucistic pines was in the mid 1980s. I was told that they were southern pines (AKA Florida pines). So to the best of my knowledge and belief, leucistic pines are simply a color variant in the southern pine subspecies. Leucistics can turn up in any species or subspecies, but I haven't heard of any others in pine snakes, Pituophis melanoleucus. Which may simply show how ignorant I am.

"Leucistic" or "lukistic" is derived from the Greek word "leucos" , which means "white".

The most common leucistics are leucistic Texas rat snakes. It is caused by a recessive mutant gene there. Leucistic has also turned up in garter snakes and the Burmese python. As far as I know, nobody really understands the genetics of the leucistic southern pine.

There were two threads here on the pit forum last month that you ought to check, if you have not seen them already:

Let's talk about variants in Southerns - Nov 6, 2006
Continued discussion on Southern Pines - Nov 13, 2006

Paul Hollander

Leucism is not a kind of albinism/amelanism, but a seperate genetic mutation. In most species(including the aforementioned leucistic Texas/black ratsnakes and, as far as I've been able to ascertain, the southern pine)it operates as a simple Mendelian recessive just like amelanism.

Leucism in ball pythons, however, operates in a much more complicated manner, showing up as a form of codominant expression, and sometimes acting as a "hidden trait" which must be "unlocked" by crossing two or more other, seemingly unrelated, genetic mutations.

Take care
Brad Chambers

Seems as though the pine leucism trait is a tricky one. It appears I have more research ahead of me than I anticipated for leucistics. Thanks for the info!
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Slipstream Serpents

My Reptile Family:
1.1.0 Leopard Geckos (Booger, Gimp)
1.0.0 Veiled Chameleon (Lucutis)
0.0.1 Quince Monitor (Pollux)
1.2.0 Thayeri Kingsnakes (Korben, Leeloo, Artax)
2.2.0 California Kingsnakes (Beetlejuice, Kang, Maraca, Kodos)
1.1.0 Bullsnakes (Hawker, Socata)

In Pines it does appear to be diferent than in the rat snakes. I have heard a few different things as far as what happens when two are bred together, but wether or not they breed true....these snakes are still considered by definition Lucys.
A friend of mine bred two together and got one look in the clutch but they were champagne pink, not white...and these particular snakes may be what others simply refer to as pink. This is why I started those threads and I have had a few people show interest in wanting to share results in the future. It would be cool to figure these variants out a little more.
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Tom-

When I bred leucistic Texas rats my babies came out pink as well. It appeared to be caused by the red of capillaries showing through the thin baby skin. By a year of age they had become as white as the parents......

Brad Chambers

That's interesting. I never heard of that, glad you mentioned it. I did however speak with a very reputable breeder who bred a pair of Pines and got a mixed look in the clutch, if I remember correctly he said you're bound to get one or two that look like a Lucy should but other things appear within the clutch too,,,,making them not typical of the trait in other colubrids. I am going to try n score a female this year to breed to my patternless het Albino male....I believe that this morph in the Pines came through selective breeding of Patternless animals but that is just an opinion. Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

>I believe that this morph (leucistic) in the Pines came through selective breeding of Patternless animals but that is just an opinion.

Something of the sort is possible, in my opinion. I was going back through the earlier threads and was struck by the snakes in one of crimsonking's posts. The third picture down is of a very light colored snake with dark irises. If a snake like this one was also patternless, how close to leucistic would it be?

I lean toward the idea that patternless is a dominant mutant gene. If so, some patternless pines could have a patternless mutant gene paired with a normal gene (blotched being the normal pattern). If two of these snakes were mated, some of the babies would come out blotched rather than patternless. That could account for some of the variation in babies from a leucistic x leucistic mating, if patternless is part of the leucistic formula.

What is the expected color of the iris in southern pines? I assumed that it was a pale yellowish white, but is that correct? Might a "real" axanthic have dark eyes? Anybody have any observations of eye color to share?

I've got a lot more questions than answers.

Paul Hollander

Link to crimsonking's pictures

My leucistic sonoran gopher a white sided. I think it is a lucy though due to it's white eyes. Time will tell. Someone found this color morph in an eastern hog.

I was talking and typing at the same time.. blue eyes.

Why would you call a snake that looks like ALL the other white sided snakes a Leucistic? This is exactly what I have been writing about on here as of late, the names people apply to thier animals. That Gopher is phenomenal and I hope it proves out. But is is a white sided like the Hog, Speckled King, Brooks King, Black Rat and Everglades Rat. I think now is as good a time as any to try and pool everyone who is willing to contribute info and establish proper names for every morph in Pits. It is going to become very confusing in a year two, mark my words....and it is bad enough already. Here's a pic of a white sided speck Tom Stevens

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TomsSnakes.com

That's a beautiful snake you have! The only morphs I've seen that looks the same as mine is your speckled and that hog. I personally don't think it is the same mutation as say a white sided bull or rat snake. Our snakes lack any kind of pattern and have blue/black eyes unlike the white sided morphs I've seen. But then again, I don't keep up with morphs that much and could be way off. I have no problem calling mine a white sided but I don't think it is the same genetic abnormality as traditional white sides.

That snake is finally starting to get some size on it. Looking good.

Scott Robinson

i agree with the idea of a pool to figure out ONE name for specific morphs and combining them with pictures of said morphs, I ran into this earlier in the year when i got my two cape gophers, the male is a hypo, or patternless, or striped, which some people argued with because I just called it a hypo. capes that have this morph have all black eyes and look like this...

Tom, thought that was a White Walled speck?

It is what Terry V prefers to call White Wall....I still slip and call them White Sided, but so people understand in a thread like this that this mutation is the same in all snakes. Terry preferred that name as it was the first mutation of its kind on any snake,.....but had not reached the hobby until fairly recently Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Colby, I don't care what you call that. That has to be one of the coolest pics of a snake. Awesome!!!!

Scott Robinson

I think that's the best complement I've ever had regarding one of my pics!

Hey Paul, the axanthic that I have has very dark colored eyes to the point were they are almost solid black. The normal siblings to these all had normal brown colored eyes.

Scott Robinson

Now I'm so intrigued by these undetermined genetics that i have to pick up a few mutant pines......

Brad Chambers

Finding the morphs is quite easy [wether they're named properly or not], it's finding virgin normal females that is the tough part. If you do pick any up please let us know your results in the future. A few of us on here are hoping to have somehting to say in a few years after this n that is bred together.
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Your info has been immensly helpful. I just got done reading the posts you suggested, and they were chocked full of information as well! I don't know how I missed those... must've been real busy in early Nov.

Thanks again.... much appreciated!
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Slipstream Serpents

My Reptile Family:
1.1.0 Leopard Geckos (Booger, Gimp)
1.0.0 Veiled Chameleon (Lucutis)
0.0.1 Quince Monitor (Pollux)
1.2.0 Thayeri Kingsnakes (Korben, Leeloo, Artax)
2.2.0 California Kingsnakes (Beetlejuice, Kang, Maraca, Kodos)
1.1.0 Bullsnakes (Hawker, Socata)

-as they're not separate species-but a black to florida pine breeding would be what's referred to as an intergrade(same species,different subspecies......btw i remember one reputable breeder tell me that indeed fla leucistics are not actual leucistics-such as seen in some texas rat snakes and to a lesser degree some wild crotalus adamanteus-but that in the genus pituophis it was the result of hobbyists selectively breeding,multiple pattern and pigment anamolies working together.i don't recall which,i want to say it was patternless,axanthic,and anerythristic;maybe amelanism also but i doubt it...someone here referred me to a link on some other forum 2-3 years ago when i asked about this exact morph and it's history.i believe it was a fauna classifieds forum,but not sure.

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"with head raised regally,and gazing at me with lidless eyes,he seemed to question with flicks of his long forked tongue my right to trespass on his territory" Carl Kauffeld

I think you need to re-read that add; I do believe you have things a bit confused, as in " shed in 2 days, ATE in 3 ". Whether you like them or not, they are every bit as healthy as any "pure" Pine/Bull/Gopher. Why would you think they wouldn't be? I've seen them in person, and although I'm not into Colubrids, they act like every hatchling Bull/Pine/Gopher I've seen

I really appreciate everyone's information here. I will continue researching leucism before I breed any. If anyone has anything else to add I'd be happy to hear from you.

Thanks again!!
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Slipstream Serpents

My Reptile Family:
1.1.0 Leopard Geckos (Booger, Gimp)
1.0.0 Veiled Chameleon (Lucutis)
0.0.1 Quince Monitor (Pollux)
1.2.0 Thayeri Kingsnakes (Korben, Leeloo, Artax)
2.2.0 California Kingsnakes (Beetlejuice, Kang, Maraca, Kodos)
1.1.0 Bullsnakes (Hawker, Socata)