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i have a one year old bauri that cant seem to right himself when he flips over too much protein ? should i make every other meal nothing but vegetables my other yearling does not have this problem

You should always try to include veggies in the diet of Box turtles, even Florida box turtles, who seem to do better with more protein. I wouldn't necessarily say that it needs to be every other day, but it should be given at least as an option a couple times per week.

Can you post pictures of this turtle? I've never had nor have I seen the problem that you're describing in a turtle that wasn't injured or severely ill. Are there any other symptoms?

Good luck!

When my EBT was about 9 mos old, he had the same problem. If I turned him on his back, he would struggle but still be unable to right himself. He was perfectly healthy aside from being a little overweight. Since I was new to turtles, I asked a friend who worked with turtles at an aquarium. She said he might be going through an awkward stage where his shell is growing faster than the rest of him, making it hard for his little legs and head to reach to help flip him over. Also, the extra weight seemed to impede his felxibility. The baby lost some weight and started eating a more varied diet and now at 1 year old he can flip over with ease.

This is just my experience with one baby. I am a novice at turtle-keeping, so in no way do I claim that this is a common occurance among baby box turtles. Your bauri may not be able to turn over because he is weak due to an illness. Does he seem sick or weaker than the other yearling? Post pictures if possible. Thanks.

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1.0.0 Jack Russel Terrier: Skipper
0.1.0 Miniature Pinscher: Bambi
1.1.1 Eastern Box Turtles: Daisy, Dozer, and Magnum
0.1.0 Red Eared Slider: Rosie
0.2.0 Rats: Clementine and Elsie
0.0.2 Rainbow Cichlids

he is very healthy and active he does eat vegatables and fruit he is my only wc out of 2yearlings and 9 babys they get 2 to 4 hrs of inderect sun almost every day his shell seems perfect i just worry what happens if he flips over while i am at work my camera is not good enough to post clear pictures

First picture is of wild-caught that can't flip back over. Second picture is of captive born. Both born in Dec 05.

Ken and Streamwalker,
The baby in the first photo (who cannot flip over) has a carapace that looks abnormally high. Maybe that is why he cannot flip over as well as the other baby (in the second photo) whose carapace looks flatter. Perhaps this is the angle of the photo playing tricks on me - Because I am unfamiliar with this species, (and since you guys are the resident Bauri experts) you guys should probably take this one!
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1.0.0 Jack Russel Terrier: Skipper
0.1.0 Miniature Pinscher: Bambi
1.1.1 Eastern Box Turtles: Daisy, Dozer, and Magnum
0.1.0 Red Eared Slider: Rosie
0.2.0 Rats: Clementine and Elsie
0.0.2 Rainbow Cichlids

I'm not too proud to admit that I have absolutely no idea. I've never had this happen to me before, and I've never heard of anything like it. You'd think that there would be more troubles with Box turtles flipping over, but it just doesn't seem common.

The only thing that crossed my mind, and this is just a stretch...the ability for a turtle to flip over seems to be instinctual. Even the youngest hatchlings will almost immediately use their head and neck to flip themselves. Not appearing to be a learned behavior, maybe there's a genetic component?! Wacky, but who knows? Maybe this is some sort of genetic deficiency. I wasn't going to volunteer this info., but since you asked.

Oh, and I'm no expert, especially with bauri. I've been keeping Box turtles for about 22 years, but bauri for only 4 years. I'm still learning along with everyone else. Thanks for the compliment, though *blush*.

I posted that last one while stuck in traffic. Let me add to it.

The turtle APPEARS quite normal. With the exception of an unusual stance in the picture, it looks like a healthy, robust yearling (or two). It looks downright healthy. The high dome of the shell is quite normal in bauri.

There are many possible reasons for the inability of a turtle to flip over...weakness from disease, illness, starvation; poor motor skills from abnormal brain function or development; neurological problems from poisoning, illness, parasites...and on and on. Most of these things, though, should have other symptoms. Maybe this is the first sign of a developing problem.

Gussler, you're right to be concerned about leaving the turtle exposed outdoors while you're gone. Direct Florida sunlight on the plastron of a turtle that can't escape is a death sentence. You should probably consider other accomodations while you're away.

Other than that pathetic advice, I really don't know what to tell ya'. It's a tough one, and I think that's why we have largely avoided replying. I feel like I'd have to at least see a video of the turtle moving about and struggling to right itself to make an even slightly educated guess.

Think hard, are there any other sypmtoms? Is the turtle's gait normal? Is it able to catch moving prey items? Does its neck seem abnormally short? Was it plunked on the head? How does it try to right itself? Does it just flail about?

everything seems normal with him the way he moves how he catches prey etc he is raised with the captive born and gets the same treatment i just read on tess cooks care sheet that too high of protein can cause this i know what you mean about not leaving them alone i lost one to fire ants last month in less then 10 minutes away some lessons come at a high price thank you for replying back

I'd could be wrong, but I think she's implying that too much protein can lead to shell deformities. These, in turn, can cause the problem with flipping over and ambulation in general. Hopefully, she'll chime in. She sometimes posts on this forum.

yes i know i have learned more from you and her, streamwalker and stephf than any book or magazine i am glad you guys are here i have raised easterns three toe and bauri sinse i was a kid many years ago your knowledge on these turtles amazes me keep up the good work

Thanks!
I don't have any experience with T. bauri, but from the photograph, it doesn't appear as though the turtle's scutes are very pyramided. From what I understand pyramiding can result from a diet that is too protein rich, but it manifests in pyramided scutes, not a high-domed shell. Also, because young turtles are more carnivorous than adults, I don't think that it's unusual to see some slight pyramiding in juvenile wild turtles.
What you may be seeing in this one turtle is a natural phase that it will grow out of.
I can share a couple of observations of things I've noticed with my Easterns;
a) There are different 'body styles', i.e., different turtles have different shaped shells. Some are higher domed than others, and females tend to be higher domed than males. Your one turtle may just happen to have a higher domed shell than some others.
b) Young turtles seem to grow in cycles: the shell may grow more quickly than the rest of the body for a short while, and then vice versa. Some weeks I look at the youngsters here and one might look like its shell is too small and then a few weeks later its shell has more than 'caught up', and the head and legs look too small in proportion.
At any rate, the best you can do is to provide an appropriate diet and general husbandry for the little one.

thank you stephf another problem i see on my hatchlings is that their marginal scutes seem to be tanner then the rest is this something to be concerned about i keep them very clean only some of the babys are like this i seen phratz post about scuds on a nother forum i will try to get pictures tommorrow

"i have a one year old bauri that cant seem to right himself when he flips over too much protein ? should i make every other meal nothing but vegetables my other yearling does not have this problem"

"When my EBT was about 9 mos old, he had the same problem. If I turned him on his back, he would struggle but still be unable to right himself. He was perfectly healthy aside from being a little overweight. Since I was new to turtles, I asked a friend who worked with turtles at an aquarium. She said he might be going through an awkward stage where his shell is growing faster than the rest of him, making it hard for his little legs and head to reach to help flip him over. Also, the extra weight seemed to impede his felxibility. The baby lost some weight and started eating a more varied diet and now at 1 year old he can flip over with ease. "?
"everything seems normal with him the way he moves how he catches prey etc he is raised with the captive born and gets the same treatment i just read on tess cooks care sheet that too high of protein can cause this i know what you mean about not leaving them alone i lost one to fire ants last month in less then 10 minutes away some lessons come at a high price thank you for replying back"

I just arrived back from a trip to Seattle and noticed this expanding thread on the behavior of box turtles specifically T.c. bauri to right themselves when flipped over.
While the question and pictures exhibit similar effects; I don't believe the results are due to the same causes. The two captive bred one year olds are more than likely experiencing exactly what Lisa stated. They grow at an alarming rate, much faster than in nature as we can offer them unlimited food.... not always the ideal food for them; but it can and does affect their growth patterns, weight and shape. All of these factors influence a sub species that has a higher dome( bauri) genetically than the other subspecies. In captivity they get more food, at this critical growth period and rather than have them grow proportionally, they get wider shells than the average teen bauri.

The example given " an awkward stage may be compared to some teenagers growing 5 - 6 or 7 inches in a year. They are a bit awkward and sometimes trip over their own feet. Not a great survival technique but thankfully a relatively short duration of time before we become more graceful and now just have to learn to stop banging our head into everything that lowers itself into our way.

In society we can overcome this bizarre behavior; but for a box turtle in the wild it can be a fatal problem. For the yearlings, trying to feed a bauri which is the most carnivorous of the subspecies just veggies, it may be a bit drastic. But I would recommend adding a higher percentage of cooked orange squash, romaine lettuce, tomato, cantaloupe, and strawberries into their diet.....all with calcium enriched D3. Cut back a bit on the crickets meal-worms and high fat protein foods..... Your yearling is a bit wider than his counterpart wild self that was genetically formatted to have leaner times. Continue to keep humidity levels high and above all keep their UVB light levels high along with their high growth and in a matter of weeks; you'll notice that they can turn themselves over.

You will have to modify his /her environment a bit to greatly lessen the chance that he will flip over. Being temporarily wider and not as high domed yet also makes it more difficult to flip over. As his shell develops into that beautiful high dome so will his neck muscles, and hi/her feet that account for turning himself over. Most bauri will slowly put their head out to check the "all clear sign" and once feeling secure, will use that powerful neck to flip themselves. Deep,very soft soil can make it more difficult for them.

The wild caught turtle that cannot turn himself over is a different matter. Looking at a picture of a boxie lets me know the obvious signs of shell and skin conditions ; but not if he is 100% healthy.

The boxie in question has a somewhat altered shell shape for most wild bauri. I am not referring to the height of his dome but the obvious step at the v1- v2 scutes. Also the front of his cervical scute starts out with a very wide and high notch that continues at a normal angle of growth until it reaches a distinct line or stop,( The v1-v2 scutes); that angle than changes rather drastically at a much sharper angle to the top of it's dome. In the picture, I can't see the condition of that higher portion of shell. It's somewhat blurred and the shell texture looks as if a change occurred here. I'm not sure what caused both very different growth patterns. It can be from an either an injury or- box turtles being very close to the grown can be very susceptible to poisons, pesticides , herbicides, etc. Sometime laying in toxins for weeks that have leeched out from a farmers supply can alter their growth and neurological ability. Possible... but often boxies will compensate for their shortcomings.

Also it's possible it may have been nicked by a lawnmower blade causing that step or line in it's shell. The very worn pattern on the first cervical scute suggests that this boxie has tried using it's neck to right itself. If you found it in the wild; it would suggest it being able to right itself although with great difficulty. It may be able to right itself but only with more time that's exhausting for it.

I'm recommending that there may be some strained neck muscles or previously injury; and that if you give it all the proper husbandry with rest, and good diet; it amazing how miraculously these animals can heal themselves. In the meantime your choice is limited as to how your setup for his enclosure should be. Try and keep it at a slight change with regards to being level. Avoid steep rocks and plants. Or use barriers to confine him until you can observe more when it's had a chance to build muscle.

Ric K.

streamwalker i think you are right about the pesticides he was found in our shop at the country club where i work he still had his egg sack they spray daily my coworkers named him hurricane wilma we never could figure out how he got through 2 closed doors during a hurricane thank you everyone for replying back

You mentioned that it still had a yolk sac attached: so then it was a hatchling when you found it? I wasn't clear about that.

Expert.... Well maybe in 20 more years. But I do have a few bauri that I've learned a little about after many mistakes, a little they taught me. And since I'm on mistakes; I did respond to this thread and goofed referring to your post and pic as Lisa's.....meaning lilypads.

However in time we'll all be experts and my best mistakes I have yet to make.

The picture of the yearling that can't flip over looks to have a high shell. Perhaps once his body grows stronger and legs longer, he will outgrow this problem. I have a three-toed who has a high shell and she also cannot flip over by herself. She is now full grown. Sometimes I find her stuck upside down, her nose caked with dirtfrom trying to right herself...turtles like her and yours may not survive in the wild-but in our care, they may if we are careful.

I have made her pen as grassy as I can, allowing the grass to grow tall so she can use it to grab hold of to right herself. I also make sure the ground in not compacted too hard so if she does get a toe or nose down it will offer some traction. I have lots of logs, shrubs and mounds in her pen. The biggest concern of course is if she flipped in the full sun-so be sure if you are away for the day your turtle is protected from the sun.
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Tess
Kingsnake.com Forum Host

That second pic of your captive bauri is a BEAUTY!

You will have a very healthy, gorgeous T.c.bauri that is a rare commodity these days.

Keep us posted.

Ric K.