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Hi there, I bought Tashmoo over 2 years ago as a "lewisi cross" from David Blair. Mark M, can you tell me what you think about her lineage from this photo? There are also numerous photos of her at http://community.webshots.com/album/30948630YFCKCQtMFt if you want to take the time to look there.

We suspect there is some nubila nubila in there but I guess my question is, do you think there is really any lewisi?

I am just curious.

Thanks,
Carole

It appears to have the VERY SLIGHT tinges of blue on its face and back of the neck which is typical of the Hybrids that are lacking significant amounts of Lewisi genes.
It also shows the orange on the dewlap and probably has some on its chest or belly which is also characteristic of the average Hybrid that is "regularly" available.
Lewisi Hybrids that are on the more pure side are NOT available on a regular basis otherwise pure looking Hybrids would be common place.
I amazes me that people still don't understand that no one is offering Lewis Hybrids that aren't super diluted with Cuban or other Cyclura genes these days except for one person in the Keys.
When you see an ad that says "Lewisi Hybrids, SEVERAL to choose from" that should tip you off. The more pure the less prolific they are.
I'm not flaming anyone here. Just trying to help people understand that when they buy a Hybrid with the hopes of it growing into a pure looking blue beauty it most like won't.
I know, I have one that looks 100% pure and one that doesn't.

Bobby

Hi, I don't feel flamed at all.

I guess my actual question was how much cuban and caymanensis do we think is in there. I have always liked the cubans and it wouldnt hurt my feelings if my "lewisi cross" is mostly cuban or anything else actually.

I was going mostly for personality and boy did I get that!

So does she look mostly cuban? Mostly caymanensis?

I really am just curious what everyone thinks. I mean, perhaps she would be more aptly called a cuban cross or a caymanensis cross.

Thanks,
Carole

Carole,

It's hard to say with your lizard.
Up until I saw your most recent post with the picture I thought she looked more like a heavy Caymanensis cross, but the orange coloration and also the head and snout shape look very Cuban.
Who can tell with all the cross breeding going on, epecially with that breeder.
Your lizard could be a product of a sire that is a Hybrid consisting of Lewisi and any combo of Cuban and or Caymanensis
and the mother could be the same OR a different combo of one or more of those subs.
You just never know what you're getting these days!
The Hybrid I have that is less pure looking has the personality of a house dog! I couldn't ask for a better pet, same as Tashmoo! Nice lizard either way!

Take Care
Bobby

It's a shame that the hybrids are so diluted. In a way you just barely get a glimpse of the Lewisi in them. I talked to Robert E. the other day and unfortunately he won't have any hybrids again this year. We definetly need more people like him who can bring up the genetic level of the Lewisi in hybrids.

.. One can argue that just because someone has a near pure one, does not mean they are going to have a real blue one. There are some very nice hybrids that did not come from Florida. It helps to look at the parents and pick through the clutch if selecting this specie.

Of course one can argue that there are some Lewisi on the island that aren't super blue, but in regards to Lewisi Hybrids, the amount of Lewisi genes in the animal will absolutely make for a more blue and less striped animal. I only know of a handful of Hybrids NOT from Florida that look like real Lewisi. Few and far between, but they are out there. The only pure looking Hybrids I've seen that are sometimes available now are from Bob Ehrig. I know because I own one. I defy you to find one produced by one of the Cyclura breeders "mass producing" Hybrids that looks as pure as this one.
Yeah, it helps to look at the parents of the Hybrids you plan to buy, BUT how often do you get to see what the parents look like and who's to say that the animals in the pictures would be the actual parents and not ringers? I guess the proof would be the very Cuban looking Hybrid that gets darker and more striped as it ages that is unfortunately so readily available and touted as something that will turn sky blue!
People STILL don't get the fact that if you see an ad that says "plenty of Lewisi Hybrids available" those Hybrids are most likely going to be so diluted with Cuban or other Cyclura blood that they will turn out looking like every one of the typical Cuban looking Cyclura that you commonly see available now. How do I know? First off, the more pure the animal, the LESS prolific they are. Also, how many times do you see someone happily posting that they just bought
a baby hybrid and then posting a few months later about how they don't think they got a Hybrid or one with much Lewisi in it, is it going to ever turn blue, blah blah blah blah.
There aren't many pure looking Hybrids being produced out there these days and the nicest ones do come from Bob in Florida.
I've seen no proof otherwise.

I agree with you that the more,"pure" ones don't produce as much, maybe that is because they don't have a healthy gene pool.

That was mellow.

Definately looks like it has some lewisi in him. As far as the rest of him being either caymanensis or nubila, it is hard to tell with out a full body shot. As far as people selling lewisi mixes, be wary of those with large clutches. Normally a more "purer" lewisi lizard will have smaller clutches of good eggs, although they may lay more. Two years ago, I only had one good egg out of six. Last year I had none out of seven, and this year only one out of six again. I originally bought my pair as pure lewisi from Robert E. He was sure they were pure when he sold them to me until he got some DNA test results back from Texas A&M (I think) saying there were traces of something else. This floored Robert and he called me to tell me the bad news. He did make it up to me, and I still have a very nice big, blue, tame pair that look pure. Actually the female is very small, but then so were the females I saw on Grand Cayman at the Botanical gardens were the breeding facility is. She holds her own with the male though, nipping at him and chasing him. I'm glad it's not reverse. I'm hanging on to my babies for now (one female and one ?? egg)and start a colony, and possibly lend them out for breeding loans in the future to lizards that look high blue or pure. I was told, that my pair probably has some caymanensis in it because there was a single caymanensis that was kept with a group of five or six pure lewisi at a sanctuary for one or two years, 20 years ago in Florida.

Hi, I want to thank everyone for their thoughtful answers. Altho I guess my question is sort of unanswered for now. There is no easy answer I guess. Here is one full body shot.

Carole

Whoa!!! That's Tashmoo!
I think you and Jiff feed your animals Collards fruits and STEROIDS!!!!!!! LOL
She's huge!

Bobby

Here is another full body shot. These are all from very recently while she is carrying 5-6 eggs. No, she hasnt laid them yet. She is driving me crazy...

Carole

Body shot #3. I hope no one minds me posting all these!

Carole

PS I leave for Daytona TOMORROW!!! YAY!

After looking at those photos, that looks like a pure Cuban. Who did you buy it from and what did they say about it being a cross? Did you see the adults? They may have bred a high cuban cross to a cuban and still called it a hybrid.

Hi Mark, that is VERY interesting. I got her from David Blair from his 2000 hatch. I got her in 2001. I bought her as a "lewisi x caymanensis". At the time I was looking for lewisi in particular. After a couple of people told me she looked quite cuban (Jane among others) I asked David Blair if there was cuban in there. His response was, well, there could be some back there in the ancestry. That there is no guarantee that the animals he started with were pure (or something to that effect). Very shortly after my conversation with him I noticed on his website that the lewisi x caymanensis from 2000 had become lewisi x caymanensis x nubila.

I was sort of assuming you were going to tell me that there was more caymanensis than anything else which would have pleased me. You see, I recently got a caymanensis (supposedly) male that I assume will breed with her someday. I thought I would produce something you could call "caymanensis cross" but I guess it would be just watering it down even further. (My intentions for owning these guys is NOT for breeding by the way).

Carole

PS Possible one of the cuban hatchlings got mixed in with the lewisi hybrids???

I would keep that lizard as a pet and not breed it. If you don't need the money, there really is no use putting more hybrids out in the market. You may unsuspectling sell to someone who may resell it as pure. That is one of the reasons why I won't buy captive born lizards, except from those who are as strict as I am about purity. I know I am breeding lewisi hybrids so you may call me a hypocrate, but I am breeding these to supply those who want a "lewisi" looking lizard which these are pretty "dead on" in looks and these are almost pure lewisi anyway. I really don't think there will be any pure lewisi ever available in the future, so this the closest thing. I see all these Cuban iguanas for sale on the classifieds, and I have my doubts on the purity of these. Let someone respected like David Blair breed these crosses because he is selling them for what they are, although, if I was selling crosses, I would consider sterilizeing all babies before sale. If your interested in breeding, breed pure Cubans or Rhino's or if you have the money, lewisi 87% and above and keep accurate data on the parents going back several generations (you could get this info from who you buy from). Then you will be known for your pure stock and gain respect from buyers and those in the herptoculture/herpetology world. You don't want to be known as an "Iguana Puppy Mill" as some are (I won't mention names). A possible reason why yours looks like a cuban is that it was a nubila x lewisi that was then bred to a caymanensis hence lewisi x nubila x caymanensis thus squeezing out less lewisi.

Well said Mark.