Reptile & Amphibian Forums

The dragons being bred for color don't have a genepool as strong as and ordinary colored dragon saying bred without colors. Hope I'm saying that right. Anyway what are the truths to that or are the beatuful looking ones I see here just as good??? Thanks!!!!!!!!! Have a good weekend to everyone!

I will probably get yelled at for this, but......

"Some" truth to it.

That is one of the reasons I don't breed blood to another blood, etc. Sundial has the same standard also, they won't breed two like morphs together either.

>>The dragons being bred for color don't have a genepool as strong as and ordinary colored dragon saying bred without colors. Hope I'm saying that right. Anyway what are the truths to that or are the beatuful looking ones I see here just as good??? Thanks!!!!!!!!! Have a good weekend to everyone!
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Lisa
www.beginnersbasics.com

"or are the beatuful looking ones I see here just as good??? "

YES, some of the color morphs are well bred and good dragons. You just get problems when people line/inbreed specifically for color. You can get some awesome dragons from mixing one colorful adult with a totally different color adult.

>>
>>>>The dragons being bred for color don't have a genepool as strong as and ordinary colored dragon saying bred without colors. Hope I'm saying that right. Anyway what are the truths to that or are the beatuful looking ones I see here just as good??? Thanks!!!!!!!!! Have a good weekend to everyone!
>>-----
>>Lisa
>>www.beginnersbasics.com
>>
>>
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Lisa
www.beginnersbasics.com

We can't say that is an across the board statement. Some breeders may practise this and in so are weakening the gene pool, but there are other large scale breeders that very concerned for the future of bearded dragons in the United States and watch their blood line closely to avoid contributing to that problem.

As mentioned before Sundail has some gorgeous babies and I know that they are very cautious with their lines.

Also, there is no getting around the fact that even though he has some unique lines, with snows, bloods and others, Kevin @ Dragons Den has some impressively hearty nice size babies. I've seen boths babies and they do not have the markers seen in inbred offspring to get those nice colors. that tells me they are doing a lot of homework and not just zeroing in on the color.

I moderate on a Dragon Medical forum and we collect a lot of data. Most the problems with dragons that are genetic problems are with just a few larger breeders. The biggest problem comes from small time breeders who are breeding and selling offspring that they know little of their past history or genetic lines, many times breeding siblings when they are unaware of it or dragons that are related within the 3rd dregee of relationship.

If you can not know that they are further than the 5th degree of relationship, they should not be bred, there is too much potential of like genes and problems. Size is becoming a serious problem in the US and weaken immune systems with young babies.

Hopefully the few breeders both large and small that are aware of this and taking steps to avoid it and have projects to strenghten the geen pool will succeed, but they only can if others use more caution in the offsrping they are creating and buyer become more educated in what they buy and bred later on. I can't even begin to tell you how many people come to us that have produced clutches where so many things have gone wrong and they know nothing of the dragons they bred beyond who their breeders came from.

We just finished tracing one where we found the parents were full brother and sister 3 years apart in age and from different areas of the country and bought from different individuals and the parents of those were aunt and nephew..... a formula for disaster and it was.

Thats one of the reasons I have the dragons that I do. None are "pure" anything. All are crosses and I get some nice babies with good colors from them.

I hope nobody takes my previous post in the wrong way. I was just stating my opinion and "some" people truly don't care what they breed and "some" people simply don't know any better.

>>We can't say that is an across the board statement. Some breeders may practise this and in so are weakening the gene pool, but there are other large scale breeders that very concerned for the future of bearded dragons in the United States and watch their blood line closely to avoid contributing to that problem.
>>
>>As mentioned before Sundail has some gorgeous babies and I know that they are very cautious with their lines.
>>
>>Also, there is no getting around the fact that even though he has some unique lines, with snows, bloods and others, Kevin @ Dragons Den has some impressively hearty nice size babies. I've seen boths babies and they do not have the markers seen in inbred offspring to get those nice colors. that tells me they are doing a lot of homework and not just zeroing in on the color.
>>
>>I moderate on a Dragon Medical forum and we collect a lot of data. Most the problems with dragons that are genetic problems are with just a few larger breeders. The biggest problem comes from small time breeders who are breeding and selling offspring that they know little of their past history or genetic lines, many times breeding siblings when they are unaware of it or dragons that are related within the 3rd dregee of relationship.
>>
>>If you can not know that they are further than the 5th degree of relationship, they should not be bred, there is too much potential of like genes and problems. Size is becoming a serious problem in the US and weaken immune systems with young babies.
>>
>>Hopefully the few breeders both large and small that are aware of this and taking steps to avoid it and have projects to strenghten the geen pool will succeed, but they only can if others use more caution in the offsrping they are creating and buyer become more educated in what they buy and bred later on. I can't even begin to tell you how many people come to us that have produced clutches where so many things have gone wrong and they know nothing of the dragons they bred beyond who their breeders came from.
>>
>>We just finished tracing one where we found the parents were full brother and sister 3 years apart in age and from different areas of the country and bought from different individuals and the parents of those were aunt and nephew..... a formula for disaster and it was.
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Lisa
www.beginnersbasics.com

I think a 99% hatch rate and a 99% survival rate says enough for the way I am doing things

(giving myself a compliment LOL please ignore me, I am a bit "down" today)

>>Thats one of the reasons I have the dragons that I do. None are "pure" anything. All are crosses and I get some nice babies with good colors from them.
>>
>>I hope nobody takes my previous post in the wrong way. I was just stating my opinion and "some" people truly don't care what they breed and "some" people simply don't know any better.
>>
>>
>>>>We can't say that is an across the board statement. Some breeders may practise this and in so are weakening the gene pool, but there are other large scale breeders that very concerned for the future of bearded dragons in the United States and watch their blood line closely to avoid contributing to that problem.
>>>>
>>>>As mentioned before Sundail has some gorgeous babies and I know that they are very cautious with their lines.
>>>>
>>>>Also, there is no getting around the fact that even though he has some unique lines, with snows, bloods and others, Kevin @ Dragons Den has some impressively hearty nice size babies. I've seen boths babies and they do not have the markers seen in inbred offspring to get those nice colors. that tells me they are doing a lot of homework and not just zeroing in on the color.
>>>>
>>>>I moderate on a Dragon Medical forum and we collect a lot of data. Most the problems with dragons that are genetic problems are with just a few larger breeders. The biggest problem comes from small time breeders who are breeding and selling offspring that they know little of their past history or genetic lines, many times breeding siblings when they are unaware of it or dragons that are related within the 3rd dregee of relationship.
>>>>
>>>>If you can not know that they are further than the 5th degree of relationship, they should not be bred, there is too much potential of like genes and problems. Size is becoming a serious problem in the US and weaken immune systems with young babies.
>>>>
>>>>Hopefully the few breeders both large and small that are aware of this and taking steps to avoid it and have projects to strenghten the geen pool will succeed, but they only can if others use more caution in the offsrping they are creating and buyer become more educated in what they buy and bred later on. I can't even begin to tell you how many people come to us that have produced clutches where so many things have gone wrong and they know nothing of the dragons they bred beyond who their breeders came from.
>>>>
>>>>We just finished tracing one where we found the parents were full brother and sister 3 years apart in age and from different areas of the country and bought from different individuals and the parents of those were aunt and nephew..... a formula for disaster and it was.
>>-----
>>Lisa
>>www.beginnersbasics.com
>>
>>
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Lisa
www.beginnersbasics.com

Something that is very important to point out is that the dragons don't have to be of a "pure" bloodline to be in-bred regardless of whether or not it's on purpose.

With all of the mixed dragons out there and breeders and everyone else under the son selling wholesale lots of hundreds of dragons to pet stores, jobbers, and so on there is no way you can always accurately trace back the lineage. If you plan on starting a breeding colony or "business", follow CheriS's advice and save yourself the pain and sorrow of producing weak and fragile dragons. It's already becoming an epidemic.

You could therefore by two dragons that have absolutely no traces of a "pure" line and could be a mix of every different color under the sun and still accidentally inbreed your dragons.

Not trying to be whatever with this post. Just saying for people who read this forum that don't quite understand everything about the genetics that is does not have to be pure "blood" x "blood" to be considered inbreeding. Or a pure anything.

brandon
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Dragons by Nature

I wasn't trying to say anything negative about you or your dragons. I hope you know it wasn't against you I have seen some of your dragons and they are awesome.

On another note......

I also agree with what was said about small and hobby breeders being the "main" culprit with inbreeding. I have just had to refund some money to someone (Dragons were to ship monday). I got him to clearify an email question he had written to me. It turned out he was planning on breeding the dragons he bought from me, but not with new blood! He was planning on breeding them to eachother! I told him that it was not a good idea and he said "what do you care? you have your money and have sold a couple dragons".... Bad for him that I DO care and I refunded his money. I will probably get some negative posts somewhere on some website about this, but I felt it was my right to not sell to him after I found out his intentions.

Like I said in the first post ... "some" truth to it

>>Something that is very important to point out is that the dragons don't have to be of a "pure" bloodline to be in-bred regardless of whether or not it's on purpose.
>>
>>With all of the mixed dragons out there and breeders and everyone else under the son selling wholesale lots of hundreds of dragons to pet stores, jobbers, and so on there is no way you can always accurately trace back the lineage. If you plan on starting a breeding colony or "business", follow CheriS's advice and save yourself the pain and sorrow of producing weak and fragile dragons. It's already becoming an epidemic.
>>
>>You could therefore by two dragons that have absolutely no traces of a "pure" line and could be a mix of every different color under the sun and still accidentally inbreed your dragons.
>>
>>Not trying to be whatever with this post. Just saying for people who read this forum that don't quite understand everything about the genetics that is does not have to be pure "blood" x "blood" to be considered inbreeding. Or a pure anything.
>>
>>brandon
>>-----
>> Dragons by Nature
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Lisa
www.beginnersbasics.com

It not only was your right to refuse to sell, but also every breeder's responsibility & obligation to protect, to the extent that they can, the future health of the lines.
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God Bless, Beardie Dreams, & Peace!
Pogoniacs™

Not to mention that guy's pissy attitude. Obviously he didn't care about the health of the dragons, either the ones he bought or the babies he was hoping to produce from them. Certainly not a potential breeder I would want to buy from.

This is one f the reasons I am reluctant to sell the same person a "pair" of my babies.

Didn't most of the orange/red lines originate from very limited number of dragons? I thought sandfire started their lines with imported dragons, and then the rest were made from those lines. We have no "new" blood coming in, therefor aren't all color dragons essentially coming from a very limited number of dragons? I know they have been outcrossed. Just wanted to know if that line of thought was correct.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

LOL I bet you never figured this topic would become heated did you?

It happens to be a very sore subject with many herpers.

>>The dragons being bred for color don't have a genepool as strong as and ordinary colored dragon saying bred without colors. Hope I'm saying that right. Anyway what are the truths to that or are the beatuful looking ones I see here just as good??? Thanks!!!!!!!!! Have a good weekend to everyone!
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Lisa
www.beginnersbasics.com

I just saw an ad for "4 month old Beardeds" ... Only problem is when you look at the pictures, I have seen bigger HATCHLINGS!
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Lisa
www.beginnersbasics.com

I would like to interject a bit on this subject for the following reasons...

There is no current data, on a scientific level, that directly indicates any of the assumptions that have been made across this thread.

The relationship of "big" vs. "small" breeders is completely irrelevant as most individuals cannot trace their dragons lineage. Considering that most initial US of our stock was limited to begin with, realistically that is the founding decendant. Back breeding has always been done, by breeders of all classes, throughout several species in this industry. If it had not, there would not be the influx of Reds, Yellows, etc. Like it or not, it is a common practice and usually in place to create strong and colorful founding stock within limited breedings. For the most part, with the limited initial stock, we are realistically about 10 generations into given inbreeding as we debate this.

The issue of Pure Breed lines are relatively extinct in dragon land.

Hatchling and successful clutch rates are no indicator of strength, line quality or otherwise, as there are too many variables within the husbandry and incubation practices of any given production. You have to remember you are dealing with a living organism directly stimulated by you for performance. This type of stimulus with feeding, breeding, etc. essentially removes any assumed accusation of genetic malfunction, poor health, or "low quality". This also leads us to the determination of "quality". I feel the term "quality" should be left for the sales floor and not even factored when discussing genetic vigor.

By no means was this post intended to upset anyone. The only true way to determine anything that is discussed regarding genetics is to actually DNA fingerprint a controlled group across multiple breeders in the US. The sad thing is that no one will complete that type of research due to cost and the little interest from the scientific community. The reptile industry, although large, is not large enough to warrant those types of studies as it would only benefit a certain few in the grand scheme of things.

Keep in mind that even at a very low level of production and or sales, you are going to sell at minimum, 150 dragons. There is no plausible way to deter inbreeding and we are all at the mercy of time.

To this date I have seen one true case of marked inbreeding traits across a few generations.

I am going to draft a proposal for the type of research activity discussed earlier. There are a few funding sources that possibly could assist. Anyone interested in the draft proposal is more than welcome to critique, or add addendums for inclusion.

I enjoy watching breeders on the forum and their offerings. As I have stated before, some of the nicest dragons I have seen produced came from members of this forum. All I ask is that until we have legitimate proof or at least a decent course of action with detailed and predictable results, that any assumptions be made with caution, as assumptions can turn into the truth rather quickly which will eventually hurt us all as an industry.

- Galen
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Galen Clark
www.captivescience.com

But, and please correct me if I am wrong here. Your stating that inbreding is practiced by most bearded dragons breeders and acceptable?

I do agree that it was and is to get many of the lines found in the US now...... but it is not acceptable and many of those earlier breeders of bearded dragons are the first to step up and admit there are some serious problems being found now in them and if they had to do over would not. Many of them have sold off their collections DUE to this fact and are no longer breeding them as they were seeing too many genetic defects in the offsrping.

There is no current data, on a scientific level, that directly indicates any of the assumptions that have been made across this thread.

There are some, but do you need that when half the industry admits they inbred and are seeing problems? They had their own scientific reality. The only ones fighting this still are the ones that are doing it and selling off offspring or buying up clutches to resell and know it when they see them, but do not care as they can always blame it on the breeder. It does not take a rocket scientist to know the diminshing size or poor immune systems of bearded dragons is not just a fluke when it is known they are inbred.

most individuals cannot trace their dragons lineage.

True, but they are learning to... the hard way

Considering that most initial US of our stock was limited to begin with, realistically that is the founding decendant. Back breeding has always been done, by breeders of all classes, throughout several species in this industry. If it had not, there would not be the influx of Reds, Yellows, etc. Like it or not, it is a common practice and usually in place to create strong and colorful founding stock within limited breedings. For the most part, with the limited initial stock, we are realistically about 10 generations into given inbreeding as we debate this.

True, but it does not have to be that way. Also, Red and Yellows DO appear in the wild, where do you think the stock came from to have those today? They did not just suddenly hatch out red or yellow, they are that color in the wild, its selective breeding of those from the wild that strenghtened those colors in offspring...... you do NOT have to inbred to get it. It's just easier and less expensive that way. That was done by people who only had siblings to begin with and CHOOSE to inbred them.

The issue of Pure Breed lines are relatively extinct in dragon land.

NO, its not

You have to remember you are dealing with a living organism directly stimulated by you for performance. This type of stimulus with feeding, breeding, etc. essentially removes any assumed accusation of genetic malfunction, poor health, or "low quality". This also leads us to the determination of "quality". I feel the term "quality" should be left for the sales floor and not even factored when discussing genetic vigor.

NO, it does not, quality has EVERYTHING to do with the breeding hence the breeder, not the owner of the offsping and does not remove the accusations of genetic problems, poor health and low quality.... it lies with the breeding. I do agree later down the road, the care an animal receives by the owner does become a factor...... but the best care in the world can not undo like genetics in a bearded dragon.

By no means was this post intended to upset anyone. The only true way to determine anything that is discussed regarding genetics is to actually DNA fingerprint a controlled group across multiple breeders in the US. The sad thing is that no one will complete that type of research due to cost and the little interest from the scientific community. The reptile industry, although large, is not large enough to warrant those types of studies as it would only benefit a certain few in the grand scheme of things.

DNA has been done many times on bearded dragons and the like markers are more often than most will admit...but still, visual signs can and do tell you much the same. IT IS A FACT, some well known breeders have sold off collections and left breeding bearded dragons due to some of these exact problems. Other still breeding are producing very small dragons, at 12 months the size 5 month olds should be. Bearded Dragons are not suppose to be 12-15 inches as adults, this industry is creating them with inbreding and MOST breeders acknowlegde that. Same thing for immune systems. The incident of dragons not able to deal with coccidia and other parasites is epidemic now, it was not 5 years ago. 10 years ago almost unheard of and other countries that pay attention to breeding lines do not have the problem to this degree.

There is no plausible way to deter inbreeding and we are all at the mercy of time.

Well, there is if the breeder acknowledges he bred siblings or back breeds, that's ususally a pretty good way. *We* do not have to be at the mercy of time, there are alternatives, only we as owners and breeders can take that step and change it. But.... it takes some expense, time and care to do it..... nothing comes cheap and easy, but status quo.

To this date I have seen one true case of marked inbreeding traits across a few generations.

How are you missing the diminishing size of bearded dragons??? they are thick in the US? Some things that walk like a duck, quack like one and lay eggs that hatch out yellow fuzzy you do not need to do a science test on to know its a duck.

As I have stated before, some of the nicest dragons I have seen produced came from members of this forum.

Yes, I agree there, because many of them do care and are paying attention to the history of the dragons they do buy and breed, because of that we also will help them diversify those lines and keep at least a small group as pure from inbreeding as possible for the future of these species here.

All I ask is that until we have legitimate proof or at least a decent course of action with detailed and predictable results, that any assumptions be made with caution, as assumptions can turn into the truth rather quickly which will eventually hurt us all as an industry.

There are course of actions, we as the owners and breeder are the only ones that can take that step to strengthen the gene pool.

Also, they are not assumptions, its truth already, not being turned into it because one person says it on a forum. 99% of the people on here that have been involved with bearded dragons for more than a year can tell you they see it or have dragons themselves that they see the problems in... and those are ones that know proper husbandry and have practiced it, not created the problem to begin with.

In response...

"But, and please correct me if I am wrong here. Your stating that inbreding is practiced by most bearded dragons breeders and acceptable?"

A- I am not saying it is acceptable by any means. I am not trying to say all breeders throw back, but it does have to happen to get desired traits, especially regarding line traits.

"There are some, but do you need that when half the industry admits they inbred and are seeing problems? They had their own scientific reality. The only ones fighting this still are the ones that are doing it and selling off offspring or buying up clutches to resell and know it when they see them, but do not care as they can always blame it on the breeder. It does not take a rocket scientist to know the diminshing size or poor immune systems of bearded dragons is not just a fluke when it is known they are inbred."

A- Yes, I personally need a bit more justification as to what level we are experienceing inbreeding.

"True, but it does not have to be that way. Also, Red and Yellows DO appear in the wild, where do you think the stock came from to have those today? They did not just suddenly hatch out red or yellow, they are that color in the wild, its selective breeding of those from the wild that strenghtened those colors in offspring...... you do NOT have to inbred to get it. It's just easier and less expensive that way. That was done by people who only had siblings to begin with and CHOOSE to inbred them."

A- Yes, I know that Red and Yellow forms appear in the wild, but not to the extent and color form that we now experience via captive breeding.

"NO, it does not, quality has EVERYTHING to do with the breeding hence the breeder, not the owner of the offsping and does not remove the accusations of genetic problems, poor health and low quality.... it lies with the breeding. I do agree later down the road, the care an animal receives by the owner does become a factor...... but the best care in the world can not undo like genetics in a bearded dragon."

A- The reason I opt for leaving the quality portion out of discussions such as these is that quality is a term of perception. How does one judge quality of the animal? Size, color? Again to many variables to say where quality lies, especially when discussing genetics. I do agree that care does not reverse a genetic outcome. The only way to remove genetic ailments is to completely remove the pool and start over.

"DNA has been done many times on bearded dragons and the like markers are more often than most will admit...but still, visual signs can and do tell you much the same. IT IS A FACT, some well known breeders have sold off collections and left breeding bearded dragons due to some of these exact problems. Other still breeding are producing very small dragons, at 12 months the size 5 month olds should be. Bearded Dragons are not suppose to be 12-15 inches as adults, this industry is creating them with inbreding and MOST breeders acknowlegde that. Same thing for immune systems. The incident of dragons not able to deal with coccidia and other parasites is epidemic now, it was not 5 years ago. 10 years ago almost unheard of and other countries that pay attention to breeding lines do not have the problem to this degree."

A- I have heard of select studies performed, but I am talking about the US captive market and as it stands currently. The issue of size is open, as I am not sure what your comparison is...Wild-type specimens, US based founding import stock, European lines? From the start, dragons have been crossed out every which way possible. With this I have a hard time stating size as a genetic flaw until we have established a baseline to work from. Just like all captive bred animals, undesirable traits may come up and perhaps can be caused by inbreeding. There is still the issue of hybridization with Rankin's in the mix.

Given the sheer number of dragons produced annually, the issue of depleted immune systems regarding coccidia is still unproven. A less heightened immune system can be the result of standard captive bred adaptation (less outside influence to fend off). Dragons are not subjected to the ailments of wild-types and natural bodily inhabitants that work in hand with immune system to correct issues, and on the other hand at the same time, we are producing appearingly healthy dragons, we may also be producing a stronger parasite, nematode, etc. unknowingly.

"There are course of actions, we as the owners and breeder are the only ones that can take that step to strengthen the gene pool."

A- My only problem with that is how does one strengthen a gene pool that is already run amuck, production has not ceased, and no wild-type aquisitions?

"Also, they are not assumptions, its truth already, not being turned into it because one person says it on a forum. 99% of the people on here that have been involved with bearded dragons for more than a year can tell you they see it or have dragons themselves that they see the problems in... and those are ones that know proper husbandry and have practiced it, not created the problem to begin with."

A- Truth from a visual perspective is subjective and for me personally, does not lend me to make a firm judgement regarding genetic issues. Again, this is not some personal attack, or anything like that. I am a firm believer in the breeders on this forum, unfortunately this forum is the one of the few places we can discuss issues, so please don't feel like that it is directed at forum members or is an issue of husbandry with members, etc.

We all have a personal side regarding our animals and mine perhaps may not show when it comes to discussions of this nature. I am leaning toward a larger study due to the large number of dragons produced. I do not inbreed and do not condone the practice, plain and simple. Have I inbreed unknowingly, probably, especially with dragons due to the source origin complications and severe outcrossing. Besides color, there are few distinguishing factors that give a hint of our dragons true genetic makeup and founding source.

I'm willing to fight for the cause with you Cheri, just had to put out there what I am looking for.
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Galen Clark
www.captivescience.com

Didn't know this would start a arguement, but still glad I asked....I want to be as knowledgeable as I can be so I can't feel bad there!...Glad this post prompted allot of reply's..Doesn't make me feel like I asked "ANOTHER ONE OF THOSE DUMB QUESTIONS"!!!!!!!!

1) They are guilty
2) Because they care...

I believe 2 is the reason for all these responses..Glad you guys care and that's why I come here to Q&A!!!!

P.s. REMEMBER AT THE END OF MY POST I PUT "HAVE A GOOD WEEKEND"??? Do that and let's engage in some more debate come MONDAY!!! ~

Nothing wrong with a few worms!

No argument here, just friendly debating.

You have a good weekend as well!
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Galen Clark
www.captivescience.com

What we really do need, is fresh blood and not just in the stages but in Canada as well. However with Australia maintaning their wildlife export ban it isn't likely we will have any wild caught bearded dragons in the market. I don't think Australian owners of bearded dragons can even breed them..but I could be wrong.

Since Australia isn't in a huge rush to lift the ban on exporting native animals, the only real option is seeing if we can get donator sperm. Course that would mean finding a way to artificially inseminate dragon females but it certainly would be an alternative to look into.

First off I do not think inbreeding doesn’t lead to medical issues at some point

But I feel like I have to add to this conversation. Not trying to be a trouble maker, just expressing some of my views on the subject.

All of our dragons have come from a very small gene pool, there is no significant influx of “new” blood. Some “new” blood may come from other countries from time to time. But nothing like in the ball python market, or even the BCI market which have hundreds or thousands of “new” snakes from the wild imported each year. I personally do not care for the importation of all of these animals. I feel that it is wrong, but that is another issue altogether. Therefore to a certain extent the vast majority of all dragons are inbred to some degree. To what degree is very debatable. Some people believe that this inbreeding is the cause of dragons failing to thrive, for the decreasing size of dragons as a whole, and the weakening of immune systems of these dragons. To support these claims they say our lines are smaller than some in other countries, they point to the numerous sick dragons that they see, the fact that breeders have left the business because dragons fail to thrive, the outbreak of coccidia and other parasites. These things are seen in a lot of morphs and high end dragons. I do agree almost every line of dragons in the US is smaller than their German Giant counter parts. But what made the “True” German Giants such a large and robust dragon? Well they were selectively bred for their large size. Was there inbreeding involved? I am not sure, but there is that possibility. Here in the states breeders decided to breed for color. To do this there was surely inbreeding involved. Now some people are starting to develop dragons that stay small, I have seen this. Cheri has sent me two dragons, one is 7 months old, it looks like a 2-3 month old. The other is 10 months old and looks like a 4-5 month old. Was the cause of this genetic? Maybe, if the cause is genetic, was it brought about by inbreeding? Again I would say maybe. I personally have not been into dragons for a very long time, so I can not attest to dragons size decreasing. However if you look at the forum you see someone with a dragon that weighs 750 grams (Mattman maybe?), the dragon is bright orange. I believe this dragon is from Chris Allen. I have a bright orange male that bromated for 3 months, he is about 1 year old right now, he weighs 550 grams and is still growing. People have said that 800 gram dragons are very rare, and few have been seen in history. We have someone on this forum that has a dragon that could easily hit this weight. I feel that dragon’s weight and length are distributed normally (Gaussian distribution for the old timers). This means that if you took the weight of a large population of dragons, this population of weight can be characterized by a mean (average) value and a standard deviation. In a normal population 68% of a population is between the mean standard deviation and mean – standard deviation, 95.5% of a population is between the mean 2*standard deviation and the mean – 2* standard deviation, and finally 99.7% of the population is between the mean 3*standard deviation and mean – 3*standard deviation. So in the majority of dragons in the US I would say that the value of a dragons weight is probably around 400 grams, and the standard deviation is about 120. Meaning that the average dragon weighs about 400 grams and that 68% of all dragons weigh between 280 and 520 grams. Also there is 0.3% of all dragons that weigh outside of the range 40 grams and 760 grams. Just my guess, to truly prove this we would have to record the weights of a random sample of dragons in captivity. Note an easy task. To prove that a dragon’s size is effected by inbreeding we would have to do the same thing with inbreed dragons. But to be more thorough this would have to be done with varying degrees of inbreeding. Once this is done a student’s T test could be performed. This is the only way to show that inbreeding truly effects size. Also it would be even more convincing if this was done over several generations of dragons. But even this wouldn’t be that conclusive because there are such large variations in the husbandry techniques practiced by dragon keepers. There is no doubt that there are morphs that do not grow to be large and vibrant adults. These dragons are usually expensive, and kept by more experienced keepers. These keepers usually know proper husbandry and how to help a non-striving dragon to survive. If a normal dragon, which is what most beginners start with, isn’t striving it is much more likely to pass away. This could help to explain why “morphs” fail to strive more frequently than “normals” do. Because “normals” that don’t strive are more likely to die. Maximum size is no doubt related to genetics, but I would also say that dragon size is also directly correlated with husbandry. Without a much more in depth study of dragons size, I feel that it is not good practice to claim that decrease in dragons size is related to inbreeding. I also do not think comparisons can be made with the size of dragons from other countries that were selectively bred for size. That would be like saying german giants are inferior to say red flames because they aren’t nearly as colorful. As to the depletion of dragons immune system this also has not been shown to be true. Coccidia is a parasite that is passed down vertically to the best of my knowledge. Therefore the population of dragons needing treatment for coccidia should increase exponentially with generation number, because most dragons with coccidia are never fully rid of coccidia. I believe this maybe the case with other parasites also. As Cheri has said treatment for Coccidia can lead to sterile gut and yellow fungus. Therefore these two events can be expected to be seen on a much more frequent basis with time. Sterile gut can also directly lead to a dragon that fails to thrive. Most vets do not suggest probiotics. It is recommended and used by many on this forum. But we a very small minority. I do not think that there has been any in depth study into inbreeding leading to specific genetic defects that lead to dragons not thriving, meaning studying the sequence of DNA of inbreed dragons that fail to strive and their parents DNA. Also I thought that in reptiles that there a far greater frequency of genetic defects. Just providing my thought process on this matter. I just do not think that dragons that are inbreed or morphs that do not thrive, grow large, or are overcome by parasites can be blamed on inbreeding. There is no concrete proof that any of this is true. There is no concrete proof that any of what I say is true. I just think some are too quick to blame inbreeding with no concrete proof that this is the issue. Also every genetic ailment is not related to inbreeding, even in animals that are inbred.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

The problems I am speaking of are from breeder that state themselves they have inbred the dragons and are seeing the decreasing size with each generation, the inability to fight off coccidia loads and genetic defects (organs outside the bodies, hatching with twisted limbs, neurological problems)and agressions.

Those same breeders with "pure" stock that have been more careful in breeding lines now are not seeing the same problems with the same husbandry. Many are adding in US german giant lines to try and strenghten the gene pool. Some are adding Europeon lines to lines here when they can get them and a few know ways to get fresh stock into the US that is legal.

Back breeding is an acknowledged fact with reptiles.... BUT... when you start with a small gene pool to begin with like bearded dragons, it does not work like it does with balls, corns, chameleons, etc as the dragons being breed were already related to begin with generations back.

I really would like to pick Kevin of Dragon's Den brain, as he is one of the few I have seen that is producing some nice size special traits and line dragons. Before seeing them, I made the mistake of assuming that most speciality lines were inbred. We see the smallness in them, the tail pattern breaks (I know, debatable by many)the failure to thrive and genetic problems such as gout.... But with his snows and bloods, we are seeing some awesome sizes and extremely healthy babies that grow to nice size, trouble free adults, I can not even remember a time that someone came to us on the medical problem list with one of his offspring... thats not a plug for him, its a fact and it baffled me initally. Logic tells me he had or has a base stock that was pure to begin with, adds to it.... or he has some secret he needs to share!!!! Several times I have spent a lot of time observing his table and babies, there is nothing to fault, I even hung around to watch them eat........impressive, these little ones DO NOT have an eating problem, even with the stress of traveling across the country and being at a show all day.... yet walk around to other dealers and some well known lines and you see all their dragons are small adults, by the end of the show they are showing stress or know people that do know what they are doing and have bought them and have the same issues of smallness, illness, genetic organ and neuro problems in them or their offspring.

Sundial reptiles also had some gorgeous colors but nice size babies and I wondered about them also, never a problem reported on the medical list with them either. I finally got to strike up a email with her after reading some post of hers and understanding that she too is concerned with all the same signs I and others are seeing and the lenghts she goes to avoid inbreeding in her lines.

I am part of a large group that meets yearly at Daytona, and discuss issues plus we stay in contact all year long on a private list. There are many long term breeders in it, several Vets or students and people doing research about bearded dragons. We go not only to find supplies and animals, but to observe and talk to other breeders and compare notes. These opinions do not come from just me or guessing, they come from the ones experiencing or seeing the problems and some of us are trying to take steps to change it... Can we? we think so, we have been involved in a project to test those theories for the past 3 years now and we have some impressive results and what we think are exciting things coming.

A few on this forum will be joining us this year and meeting the others, I hope they do post here also and vouch for the statements I have made.

Ok certain breeders may have issues. No doubt. If they see decreases in size with generation there is something genetically wrong with those dragons. No debate. However I still do not believe the decreasing size as a whole is a fault of inbreeding. In bloodlines with other defects yes. but as a blanket statement no. The biggest dragons that I have seen are actually orange dragons. If there is actually a trend of dragons decreasing sign a case could be made for it being due to lack of proper husbandry by small time breeders for both the breeders and the babies. Also the bearded dragon is becoming less and less expensive. Making it more and more available to the masses. Well the masses don't care for dragons in the best possible way. Again poor husbandry will lead to lack of growth. Same thing for igs. Igs not cared for properly don't grow. That problem has become more and more evident as the price of igs dropped. Igs are not inbreed. They tend to get smaller and not thrive because they aren't cared for properly. But for breeders you mention with small dragons, deformities, and nuero problems that is a genetic defect no question. Is it due to inbreeding of what were otherwise healthy animals, or inbreeding of animals that were weak to begin with? Or line breeding for several generations. I believe there is a difference. I still believe the coccidia and other parasite explosion is due to the fact that more babies are being breed. More dragons are starting out with them. And general husbandry is probably getting worse because of the lower price and the fact that dragons are becoming more and more of a disposable pet. Worse husbandry again will equate to more stress more stres equates to reduced immune system ability. Stress leading to parasite outbreaks is well understood. I think more and more dragons are becoming stressed because of improper care. I just feel that herps as a whole are becoming more commonly kept. But that doesn't mean that more and more people are taking good care of their animals. Contrary as they become cheaper I imagine that the husbandry as a whole is decreased. I also do not think a 5th degree of seperation is neccesary. I do think alot of people lack such a seperation. I know the majority of animals don't have it. Have traced our greyhounds lineage. One of the breedings I believe was a male to his granddaughter. I think greyhounds as a whole are getting better and better genetically. Which is unfortunate for many reasons. There are some mistreated animals, that are horribly misunderstood. Ok I am off to bed.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

.

But I do not see an easy care. To correct the issue we would have to correct all the pet stores. And no matter how many of us there are we will never be able to correct the pet shops.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

I'm going to sound like a bad guy on this one....

"I really would like to pick Kevin of Dragon's Den brain, as he is one of the few I have seen that is producing some nice size special traits and line dragons."

A- While you are picking his brain, ask him how he derives 50 and 100 lots of crested geckos that are red and orange in color from an animal that is polymorphic and only a handful were brought into the US approx. nine years ago (line-backing perhaps?).

Before seeing them, I made the mistake of assuming that most speciality lines were inbred. We see the smallness in them, the tail pattern breaks (I know, debatable by many)the failure to thrive and genetic problems such as gout....

A- You are still assuming....gout can be derived from excessive protein as well.

But with his snows and bloods, we are seeing some awesome sizes and extremely healthy babies that grow to nice size, trouble free adults, I can not even remember a time that someone came to us on the medical problem list with one of his offspring...

Q- I could be wrong, but was it you who brought up the Leucistic issue with Kevin a while back?

Logic tells me he had or has a base stock that was pure to begin with, adds to it.... or he has some secret he needs to share!!!!

A- By witnessing a large adult?

Several times I have spent a lot of time observing his table and babies, there is nothing to fault, I even hung around to watch them eat........impressive, these little ones DO NOT have an eating problem, even with the stress of traveling across the country and being at a show all day.... yet walk around to other dealers and some well known lines and you see all their dragons are small adults, by the end of the show they are showing stress or know people that do know what they are doing and have bought them and have the same issues of smallness, illness, genetic organ and neuro problems in them or their offspring.

A- An expo is hardly the place to derive a conclusion of animal wellness or genetic vitality. I can put 500 dragons on a table and they would do the same, eat, head held high, tails in the air....a good portion of activity is heat derived or lack thereof during transportation and the show itself.

I will be in Daytona as well and would love to roundtable with your group. As long as you promise not to punch me...LOL
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Galen Clark
www.captivescience.com

up someones ass for the sake of kissing it. Yes, it was me that states that there are no true leucistics and yes that probably pissed off Kevin. But it is what I beleive and there is strong evidence to it, in your thinking I should not state what I believe there is strong enough evidence to just because there is another side to the coin? Sorry, I don't work that way.

That does not then in turn make his snows, bloods or other lines including what he calls leucistics inferior, they are spectacular, there is no way around it, and no, its not from just seeing at one show, I related that in a comparasion to others at the same shows and how healthy, active and alert they were. Its from many other breeders and individuals I know and am contact with daily that have one or more, including me. Its from data collected on over 600 dragons at this time with genetic, viral and fungal problems..... not a single one is from him. That data is used by some of the Researchers and Vets that have been published or doing research on bearded dragons, emerging epidemics and concern for this species and also agree there are serious problems here.

BTW: On a totally other note not related to the above, the gout is confirmed as being genetic and attributed to inbreding by one of the top reptile vets in the county who has seen it many times from the same breeder (not Kevin. just to clarify) and that dragon receives excellent care and two meds a day and has for a year to keep him thriving.

You seem to think I am some fluff on here playing games and making up stories, I have better things to do with my time than play games.

And as far as asking Kevin where he got what from where, that is neither my business nor yours, you seem to have issues with him and talking about assuming..... Are you so sure that he does not have a way to get fresh imports into this country? I for one know it is not that hard or illegal to do.

As far as his base stock, I believe from what I have been told and seen that he did in fact have some of the base stock that was brought into this country several years ago and as such has some very pure lines to be working with..... and would continue to have a contact for fresh imports that is not available to others.

Just because someone has something does not make them doing something unethical or illegal, maybe it makes them smarter than the rest of us or having better contacts. Besides, I know poop about geckos

I will be in Daytona as well and would love to roundtable with your group. As long as you promise not to punch me...LOL

I don't think you would fit in

In no way do I feel you are blowing smoke anywhere. I am not personally attacking you. These are words across a forum of discussion, nothing more than a debate over a heated subject.

Sometimes the things we say come out wrong, especially with the insensitivity of a typed thread.

I think the advice you give is good and have never thought about interjecting on any of your posts until today. Unique discussion, nothing more.

In addition, I don't think you are making up stories or are some sort of "fluff". Not at all. I just question some things that you stated to determine the vitality or lack of regarding genetic issues.

This statement though is the one that lingers... "and as far as asking Kevin where he got what from where, that is neither my business nor yours" this is the troubling one, as it defeats what we are trying to acheive. If not either you or I can verify source, who is to say that it is not inbred?

Sorry to have made you angry in some fashion, but i don't hold a grudge or anything like that and hope that you would not either. I am a firm believer in working as a team. We can't agree all the time! With the correct proof I'd go to bat for any fellow herpetoculturist/herpetologist.

Have a good time in Daytona and sorry for the frustration that I caused you.

- Galen
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Galen Clark
www.captivescience.com

It bothers me that you jump to the conclusion that because someone has something that others do not and you do not know to be in the US or available that there is something wrong with them or questional ethics.... or that if I had something negative to say about one thing, I should have the same about others or it invalidate/makes questionable my statement.

You assume that because I say something its only my thoughts or words and not the bank of pathology reports I have here, the expense in getting them not only for all the dragons I take in and study, but the ones that others own and I think it is valuable enough to spend the money to have the DNA's, biopsies or lab work done on. Add to that all the data that we as a group have collected that have helped to find what is causing some major illnesses in bearded dragons and led to the successful treatments of those problems with dragons living instead of dying, like 2 of mine did.

We spend more hours working on genetic and disease issues in bearded dragons for no pay than most people do working for their income.... it just seems to me some of your comments belittle or doubt the results of that hard work and what we and others put into it to accomplish what we have.

On the post up from this are some dragons that are soooooo tiny, almost adults and still the size of hatchling, perfect but their size. I could claim its a line bred trait and you know what... some people would believe it....may buy them, and others would stick up for me that its done on purpose, it will not change the fact they are inbred and the size problem is part of that inbreeding. Bearded Dragons are NOT small, they should be 18-22 inches.... we are creating that problem here in the US and no matter what someone wants to call it, its a problem and threatens this species.