Reptile & Amphibian Forums

to keep two imitators with two tincs in an 18x18x18 cube?

I would say that the answer is definately. Aside from the fact that tincs can breed with alot of different frogs, they are a larger dart and therefor need more room. I wouldn't even add another tinc in there for reasons of space and territory.
-----
I think my frog owns a megaphone....

White's tree frogs : 1:1
Mantella viridis : 1:3

Territorially, it would be crowding. A pair of tincs is O.K. Four or five imitators of any sex would be O.K. in this size tank. But mixing them together would probably lead to problems. The imitators don't always stay in their generally upper regions of territory, and the tincs don't always stay on the ground, so you'd need a much vaster space in order to mix them in the same tank together. In this size tank, almost any dart frog is going to utilize all of the space from top to bottom, whether it is regarded as an arboreal or terrestrial species. Compare a small vivarium to the many meters of rain forest habitat, up, down and sidewise. While mixing species is possible, you need a lot more space than 18"X18" cube to do it in, and never begin by mixing. Everyone needs to keep each specie separately and learn about them first hand before considering putting them together in the same habitat. There is room in your vivarium for a pair of tincs, male and female, or for a group of four or five unsexed imitators, but not both together.

-----
Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

4 D. auratus blue
6 D. galactonotus pumpkin orange splash back
7 D. imitator
6 D. leucomelas
6 D. pumilio Bastimentos
4 D. fantasticus
6 P. terribilis mint and organe
4 D. reticulatus
4 D. castaneoticus
2 D. azureus
4 P vittatus
2 P. lugubris

oh ok. are imitators the only thumbnail species that can be kept in groups like that?

haven't you posted this before. imitators and tincs shouldt go together. that size tank would be OK for two imitators, but definatily not 4 of any size dart frog. i'de suggest listening to what people posted before instead of justa sking until you hear what you want to hear.

I have 4 imitators in a 20X10X18 (tall) and they do well in there, and are breeding regularly. However, I do prefer more space, even for the thumbs, especially the very active ones like the D. imitators and their close kin. It would help a lot if you had several bromeliads on a cork background or something similar. This gives them more aerial space for breeding and hiding in the axils.

You will find some experienced dart keepers who will even go to the extent of saying it's O.K. to mix darts with certain snakes, other genera of frogs, anoles, etc., but these people usually work with zoos, or otherwise large, or even temporary display enclosures, and have very vast experience, as well as a lot of immediate faculties and facilities for monitoring, care and upkeep. A beginning hobbyist doesn't have any of this. So be content to just start out with your first pair or small group, and then as you keep them successfully, try others in different enclosures. It's a very addictive hobby. A first attempt at mixing in an 18X18 cube would more than likely involve tragic losses and a bad experience, and would discourage you.
-----
Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

4 D. auratus blue
6 D. galactonotus pumpkin orange splash back
7 D. imitator
6 D. leucomelas
6 D. pumilio Bastimentos
4 D. fantasticus
6 P. terribilis mint and organe
4 D. reticulatus
4 D. castaneoticus
2 D. azureus
4 P vittatus
2 P. lugubris

I agree completely, mixing species is best left for very experienced dart keepers and zoos. I am not saying it can't be done, but just not if you're not experienced. And experience means you've kept lot of darts before.

if i put two imitators in the enclosure and then add another one at a much later time(lets just say six months later or something) would this one become bullied because its new to the established territory? Would it be best to introduce all three at the same time into the viv?

putting one imitator in the tank later on would probally not be a good idea. what genders are the ones allready in the tank? by adding another it will only increase competition in the tank over mates. Why do you want to many frogs in one tank?it would be a lot safer for the frogs if you kept two to a tank and if there was only one species per tank. mixing species and having large groups should be left for zoos and experts.

as of now the tank is empty.I want a male and female pair but im buying them from saurian which doesnt offer sexed imitators. If i got three of them i would have a better chance of gettin a pair as opposed to buying two.And now im a little confused. im hearing that imitators dont do well in groups and from other sources i am hearing that they do ok in a groups of four or more.

oh, you didn't say they were young, i thought you had a pair allready. IMO as long as each imitator has a mate it would be ok, but also IMO, they are extremely interesting frogs and you don't need four of them to see that.

I've been at it for eight years, and am just starting to convert a 180 gallon fish tank into a paludarium for a trial at mixing two dart species. Patrick Nabors has recommended yellow galactonotus and one of the bronze and green auratus morphs. Even so, I'm planning on keeping them separately for awhile. These guys aren't cheap, so I don't want to be careless about it.

I'm not positive that they won't interbreed, either. Both the D. auratus and D. galactonotus are fairly closely related to the tincs, so it might be possible. Creating hybrids, or at least letting them out into the hobby is frowned upon by most serious breeders. While there are not yet any definite guidelines regarding the breeding ethics, the general consensus seems to be to keep them as close to their wild origins as possible, by either destroying the eggs in a mixed tank, or at least not letting any dubious off-spring out into the hobby. I'm not a breeder-seller of darts, but still try to follow the general ethical guidelines of those who want to preserve the original species for posterity.
-----
Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

4 D. auratus blue
6 D. galactonotus pumpkin orange splash back
7 D. imitator
6 D. leucomelas
6 D. pumilio Bastimentos
4 D. fantasticus
6 P. terribilis mint and organe
4 D. reticulatus
4 D. castaneoticus
2 D. azureus
4 P vittatus
2 P. lugubris

Good luck with that Patty! That sounds like a really cool mixed tank. How many of each would you include? I have a mixed tank of my own with P. vittatus and D. auratus that works really well. Your tanks are always amazing so make sure you post pictures too (we can always use a little inspiration).

Luke.

Thanks, Luke. I think I'll try to get about six of each. While the tank is rather large, some of it is still going to be aquarium, paludarium style,--not sure of the over-all design yet, but am getting more and more ideas. I'll probably use schools of the same small tetras I use in my current paludarium, as they have proved to be the most successful over the years. X-ray, rummy nose, head and tail light, etc. I've never been able to keep neons alive for long, but the others have all lived for years. I think I'll put a falls and pool on one end opposite the pump, a front run about 8 inches wide, a central lagoon to the back with a drip wall running into it, and two land areas divided by the lagoon, but connected by logs. I have a canister filter for this tank, so will use this as the circulating pump, then just direct the return over the drip wall and falls at the opposite end. It won't be much different in design than my current paludarium. I figure the choice of two semi-separated land areas will give the different species a chance to gather in their own territory or mix.

I'm hoping the yellow galactonotus will be as eager to use the water way as my orange ones are, once the aquarium plants are grown enough to provide floating leaves for them to explore out on. I've never had a water feature in my blue auratus tank, so have no idea how they'll respond to it.

Do you have any suggestions? (I'm afraid I've hijacked this thread--but maybe should have started a new one.) Hopefully, it is still useful to the original poster.
-----
Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

4 D. auratus blue
6 D. galactonotus pumpkin orange splash back
7 D. imitator
6 D. leucomelas
6 D. pumilio Bastimentos
4 D. fantasticus
6 P. terribilis mint and organe
4 D. reticulatus
4 D. castaneoticus
2 D. azureus
4 P vittatus
2 P. lugubris

That sounds like a pretty intelligent set up to me! I like your idea of having two seperate areas of land so they can have their own territorys. How much actual land area would each "island" be? I have never been lucky enough to branch out into galacts, but the ones that I have seen haven't been super territorial and blue auratus tend to be incredibly shy so I don't see any major issues. There may be some fighting for the first couple days maybe but they should just sort out their territories and be okay after that. This is key for those wondering about mixed exhibits, but you have to provide enough room for them to have acutal territories! When I built an exhibit (for size reference, it was a modified shower stall) at work for multiple azureus, they wrestled pretty hard for the first couple days, but since then there has been no agression at all. That was around a year ago too. Unfortunately, that exhibit was taken down this week though because we are sending our azureus to different zoos. So it can be done with minimal stress to the animals and to the keeper if enought thought is put into it (and I'm talking a LOT of thought). I'm not worried about you though Patty. I am blushing that you even asked for suggestions from me! Good luck.

Luke.

I'm purchasing some new bronze type morph auratus for this trial, not using my 7 year old "all lady blues." Even the one I see only once a year that I named Larry, (from the Garrison Keelor skit about his brother Larry, who lives in the basement and never emerges,) is a girl. I think the morph Patrick recommended to me is not typically as shy as the blues, and my blues are all females, so I've never enjoyed seeing any breeding activity among them. One of them did lay some infertile eggs once, however. This fooled me for a while, until Patrick told me that they will sometimes do this, even without a male around. Satan get behind me, before I make some inappropriate for young children, anthropomorphic remarks I'm thinking of about not having always needed a guy around to lay my own eggs, either.
-----
Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

4 D. auratus blue
6 D. galactonotus pumpkin orange splash back
7 D. imitator
6 D. leucomelas
6 D. pumilio Bastimentos
4 D. fantasticus
6 P. terribilis mint and organe
4 D. reticulatus
4 D. castaneoticus
2 D. azureus
4 P vittatus
2 P. lugubris

Too funny! Good luck with those bronze auratus. I don't know what everyone else's experience has been with any morph of auratus, but they have not been as bold for me as many people claim they are (and I have Panamanian Green and Blacks). They are by far the most shy frog I own. All this aside...I like your idea and good luck!

Luke.