Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I found these cool little critters at a show last week.

They're like giant mice/small rats/somewhere in between. More closely related to mice than rats. They're about twice the size of mice. They also smell a lot less than mice.
So, I wanted to get a trio of them, but I thought maybe I should investigate further.

concerns:

It's $20 for 3 rodents. 1.2. That's kind of expensive, but comparable to gerbils, and I have those as well. These guys would take the place of my gerbils. If I could sell some of the babies, it would be worth it.. but how much could I sell them for? Would I be able to at all? I couldn't set up at our 2 local shows, because that guys already sets up at them. I'm thinking the only place I'd be able to sell them would be pet stores.

Inbreeding. The breeders I'd pick up are probably related somewhere down the line. Either way, I could only breed so much before I'd have to get new blood. To compare with my mice, I'd have to have 10 females. The way I look at it, I'd have to start with two trios. That's $40.. And a year down the road, they're not going to be breeding effectively. Will I be able to get more fresh blood? How hard is it really to find unrelated blood? Does anyone have a solution for this?

What will they eat as breeders? The only real information I can find says they need seeds & such, and fresh vegetables. But, that's from a site that also says the same thing for mice, rats, etc... Lots of sites say you should only ever feed your rodents expensive food, when lab block works perfectly fine, if not better. I'm sure you guys know what I mean.
The guy who breeds them said that through trial and error, he's giving them lab block and the mouse/small rodent mix from Wal-Mart, but how much of each should I give them? Is it really necessary to give them something other than lab block?

That price for a trio is a decent price, by me theyre $10 for females and $3 for males. I wouldn't worry about inbreeding, they're rodents. Labs inbreed mice and rats for hundreds of generations.

As for selling them, well I don;t know yet. If there's a big demand at your show why not sell them there? My show has a lot of rodent vendors and the better ones always sell out each show of certain types and sizes.

I feed mine mostly lab blocks with supplements of grains and occasional fresh vegetables.

I've had them 1 month and they haven't bred yet, but I think one female is pregnant. From everything I've heard they are REALLY good breeders so I wouldn't worry about them not breeding well. If they wear out after a year just raise up some offspring as breeders.

Excellent. I really think I'm gonna pick up a trio at the next show. I'd be thrilled to get out of mice! I'd be able to completely quit breeding them if I could get a few of these going. I was rethinking it, and I wouldn't need as many groups, because they get bigger than mice- I'd be able to feed one of those out, instead of two adult mice. Don't know why I wasn't thinking about that in the first place.

How are yours personality-wise? The guy I'm going to get them from said none of his are friendly, and that they'll bite if you get too close to them in their cages. He wouldn't get too close to them at the show, but prodded them with a pen to get them to move around so he could pick up a tail. But, I've heard that they can tame down fairly well.. Are yours handleable at all?

And selling at shows is iffy.. I'm sure I could do it, and probably be able to sell them, but it's a small show, and I wouldn't feel right about it. Dunno. I'll have to see how everything goes.

Personality, about the same as the breeder you spoke to. I have a trio, bought 1.1 first and then 2 weeks later bought another female from a different vendor. The first female I got is a nasty biter.

First it was just nips and I didn't worry about it, I was trying to tame them by putting my hand in the tank with treats. Well they started taking the treats just fine, and the female kept biting, and drew blood once. Since then I wear leather work gloves when I have to put my hand in the tank and let the [bleep] bite away. They aren't really handleable at all. The other 2 don't bite but don't let me pick them up. They're really fast and strong jumpers so I can only pick them up when cleaning the cage by grabbing their tails, which I don't like to do but there's not much choice. I try to catch them in tubes but they got too smart for that really quick.

When I get a litter I'm going to try handling them right from birth and hopefully the next generation will be easier to deal with and a bit more socialized. If it works I'll separate them as soon as they are weaned so they don't learn the adult's bad habits. If they breed as fast as I was told, I should be able to feed off the mean one before too long and the rest will hopefully be ok to handle. All I can do is wait for a litter. The nasty female looks pregnant too.

Their weight at about 2.5 months of age is 50-60 grams. A lot smaller than rats but definitely bigger than mice. They need a bit more space than mice. I read that they need at least a 24" wide rank so I put them in a 15 gallon. The breeder I got them from said they breed just fine in a 10 gallon, so I think future colonies will go in 10 gallon tanks.

I'm gonna start mine off in lab cages designed for rats. They're about the floor space & almost half that again of a 10 gallon. The only thing I'm iffy about is whether the babies will be able to get out through the lid. Mice can, but gerbils can't.

Everything I've heard with them basically compares them to gerbils, so I think those cages should work. If not, I'll just make some hardware cloth lids for them.

I wish I had lab cages that size. I have 2 that are about 10 gallon size, and a bunch of the shoebox size that I keep 1.2 mice in. I just got some lab cages with nice big silent wheels but they have open bottoms with wire mesh grids so I can forget about using those for the natal rats. Maybe grow out tanks for the older ones.

I've been told and read somewhere online that any cage has to be mouse-proof or the young natal rats can escape. They also supposedly get more active at earlier ages than mice or rats. Still no litters here so I don't know yet.

>>I wish I had lab cages that size. I have 2 that are about 10 gallon size, and a bunch of the shoebox size that I keep 1.2 mice in. I just got some lab cages with nice big silent wheels but they have open bottoms with wire mesh grids so I can forget about using those for the natal rats. Maybe grow out tanks for the older ones.
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>>I've been told and read somewhere online that any cage has to be mouse-proof or the young natal rats can escape. They also supposedly get more active at earlier ages than mice or rats. Still no litters here so I don't know yet.

I think I hit enter in the subject line.. Whatever happened, it posted before I wrote anything!

I have some rubbermaid style cages that I use as grow-out cages for mice. I really dislike them, because they're a pain to clean, but I think those may be necessary, if they're that active.

Can you keep me updated on yours? I don't know anyone else who actually has them, and it'd be nice to compare experiences. When you do get a litter, post about it here, or send me an e-mail or something, please.

Sure no problem. The mean female definitely looks pregnant, so hopefully within a week or 2 I'll see my first natal rat litter. Not sure yet If I'm going to separate her or not. I'll probably leave her with the male so she gets bred again right away.
I wish I could work on trying to socialize the other 2, but with the biting female in there it's a bit tough to do anything in the cage. She doesn't just bite if I get too close, she actively chases my hand whenever I go in the cage. She even climbs up the food hopper and tries to attack me through the wire top.

I guess it could be maternal hormones driving this behavior now that she's pregnant, but she did it before she was possibly pregnant also. Oh well I guess it's better this way anyway, I won't get attached to them and it'll be easier to euthanize and freeze them for snake food.

Of course now my mice are finally starting to produce as well, so I'm going to end up with too much snake food in the freezer.

I've been spending $30 a month because my rodents aren't keeping up with my collection. I'm trying to get a head start on next year, where I'm expecting three clutches of colubrids, maybe more.

I was told by the breeder that snakes fed natal rats might refuse regular mice and rats so any that you plan on selling you might want to keep on normal mice and rats.

I'm going to try alternating with my snakes, or perhaps 2 or more mouse/rat feedings to 1 natal rat. I don't want them stuck on a more expensive rodent if I don't end up breeding them for long, or have to get rid of them for whatever reason and end up stuck on purchased frozen mice and rats.

I'm going to keep a few groups of mice around for pinks & fuzzies, anyway, but I'm not too worried about it.

Generally, I wholesale my clutches. With snakes, i've only ever bred corns, and a clutch of integrade rat snakes this past year. This year, I'll most likely do the same thing, and sell them as soon as they eat a meal. I don't breed to make a profit, but I'd rather sell them all immediately, and put that little bit of cash into my Frozen food/caging fund than anything else. My collection basically grows solely because of that fund.

And with my animals I DO keep, I only have two that ever give me problems- one corn who regurges if I feed her too much, and one hatchling Ruthven's king who fasts for months at a time(she's on an 8 week record right now.) As it is, all of my snakes switch freely between mice, rats, and gerbils, so, I'm not too worried about it.

I've never heard of them before and I thought they were interesting looking. The website I was reading about them on said they didn't like to be handled but you may be able to start handling babies early enough for some of them to get use to it. Handleability may somewhat affect being able to sell them.

I was impressed with their litter size (avg of 12, as many as 20). An important factor when raising feeder rodents.

Food variety is good for any animal. I use Mazuri Rodent Breeder (a type of lab blocks) for my rats and I supplement it on occasion with seed/grain.

Like "Rflagg" said, I wouldn't worry about inbreeding. If you're still concerned about it you can always take a male from one female's litter and several females from other female's litters and breed them to each other.

Good luck!
Mike
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It is said that 1 out of every 4 people are mentally unbalanced. Think of your 3 closest friends, if they're normal, then it's you.